Are you really sure you want socialism?

[smackaholic]

Yeah, but that’s spic socialism. We’ll do Norwegian socialism. It will be Epcot!!!!


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[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

If they come to your door, stomp on the IMF cockroaches before they enter your home. This is nothing but "market warfare" by (((international banking concerns))) looking to strangle the Venezuelan economy by currency pumping.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Print your own money...print your own death certificate.

[Joe in PB]

"The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented, but that socialism has been faithfully implemented." - Donald Trump

[Joe in PB]

The problem with Socialism, is you eventually run out of other peoples money" - Margaret Thatcher

[Dr_Phibes]

Hardly a socialist government. They wanted the best of both worlds, to make the 'evil work for the good'. Sort of a half Cuban revolution.
Lenin raged against that sort of perfidy and Marx demolished it in 'Critique of the Gotha Programme'. A lot of liberal 'leftists' were desperate to see Venezuela succeed so as to prove Marx and Lenin wrong. Oh well.

[Dr_Phibes]

Not a clue, no idea. And if I did, my speculation or wants of how it should be would be irrelevant. A successful model exists in history and the present - real existing socialism. A gap should exist between anyone's ideal of utopia and how things should/will actually work.
The story's not finished in Venezuela, a lot of good has been done - but the launchers of that project ignored the input/advice of their elders and they're currently paying the price.

[Dr_Phibes]

Sorry to repeat

A successful model exists in history and the present - real existing socialism. A gap should exist between anyone's ideal of utopia and how things should/will actually work.

Asking yourself unanswerable questions seems obtuse.

[Dr_Phibes]

Pretty much the Soviet Union, all its satellites, DPRK, PRC, Cuba, etc.

To clarify:

Me: I like soufflé.

88: Perfect souffle?? What is that?

Me: I don't know. Just a regular souffle will do.

88: No one has ever had a perfect souffle! You are asking an impossible thing!!

Me: Souffle please. And a large white milk. HP sauce, yeah?

[L45B]

Wow, comparing socialism to soufflé is quite the attempt.

Unless of course, you’re making it and somebody else is eating it.

[Mikey]

[Dr_Phibes]

I find it hard to believe that anyone given a choice would choose to live under the rules imposed by the Soviet Union, all its satellites, DPRK, PRC, Cuba as opposed to western democracies. What is it about those countries that you find tantalizing? Again, not being a dick. But there is no fucking way I would want to live in such a society. Cuba, maybe. But that is a gastro-vote only.

They embrace secularism, empiricism, rationalism, materialism and faith in progress. Nations became fully industrialised, life expectancy goes through the roof - along with education and literacy, full employment and access to all basic human needs. The dregs of society are purged, the former comintern was/is highly militarised and organised.

I'd ease up on the gastro-vote, the food in Cuba is.. not good. Black pepper is witchcraft. They can moan about sanctions all they want, they just don't care about it.

Perfect souffle is a better analogy than the omelette and the broken eggs (let's get away from that trope :( ). Marxism is inherently optimistic and puts faith in human progress. It's also realism, to get from A to C, you require a sometimes unpleasant but necessary B.

There is no other socialism aside from Communism. Marx lived at a time when there was an extraordinary variety of rival socialist theories; his long-running dispute with Bakunin was merely the most famous of such conflicts with rival theorists. Marx had run-ins with almost everyone in the socialist movement of his time. Socialism was dominated by Marx because almost all of these rival theories of socialism are totally forgotten by everyone except specialists, mainly because Marx himself was successful in his refutation of them. A huge proportion of Marx's collected works are taken up with such polemical disputes. The proof is in the pudding, everything else met the dustbin. Communism swept the world like nothing ever seen.

[Rooster]

Perfect souffle is a better analogy than the omelette and the broken eggs (let's get away from that trope :( ). Marxism is inherently optimistic and puts faith in human progress.

I recently read an article on socialism that specifically addressed the whole utopian/optimistic outlook on humans and how because it ignores or refuses to believe in the fallen nature of man, totalitarianism is the result, ala the USSR, NK, Communist China, Cuba, etc. I’ll see if I can find it and link it up.

Anecdotally, I once met a young woman in Afghanistan who was a contractor from Uzbekistan. Her desire was to see the USSR restored because in her mind it was a utopian place where everyone had plenty to eat and everyone had a job. Unfortunately, the history books or those people who actually lived there back then didn’t tell her about the endlessly long lines waiting for bread and jobs that were assigned to you even if you had no interest in doing it.

[Dr_Phibes]

the fallen nature of man

Sounds ominous. I'd be curious to see it, considering the history of man is one long story of ultimate progress.
Breadlines where a fact of life after the Revolution and the Second World War, that's in any system after disruption, England/Germany. They disappeared in the early sixties, then reappeared under Gorby.

Something to remember, is that the market is a fantastic transmitter of want and need, it's a system for transmitting information. Establishing a replacement was a painstaking process. Copying is easy, reinventing is something else altogether.

[Rooster]

Ominous? Hardly*. But given whatever progress we’ve made technologically, man’s baser instincts cannot be excised regardless the ideology or punishment/reward system installed. In the end utopian social systems like Communism and Socialism resort to blunt force because they cannot countenance thought which run contrary to what is the driving ideology of the government. To do so acknowledges that there are legitimate alternate points of view and that those who do not believe in the inherent goodness and perfectability of man have an understanding of what motives drive the human spirit.


*This being argued from a strictly humanist standpoint. Theologically, ominous would be one of the lesser descriptive words that would be attached to a person or persons who are convinced of and are relying on their own natural and intuitive goodness for admission to heaven. But to move this discussion there takes this thread in an entirely different direction.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

In the end utopian social systems like Communism and Socialism resort to blunt force...

...says the citizen of the country with the highest incarceration rate in the entire world.

[Joe in PB]

The US has a higher incarceration percentage than China & Russia?

Maybe a higher reported incarceration percentage, I doubt otherwise.

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[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

The US has a higher incarceration percentage than China & Russia?

Maybe a higher reported incarceration percentage, I doubt otherwise.

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Yes they do. By a large margin. Please spare me your "secret gulag" assertions.

[Joe in PB]

Of course, both Russia and China are beyond reproach when it comes to state information.

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[Joe in PB]

While every form of government has some coruption, socialism or communism and their state sponsored grocery/department stores, & other services likely lends itself to more than all others except dictatorships.

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[BSmack]

Of course, both Russia and China are beyond reproach when it comes to state information.

Back in the early 80s I had a shortwave radio. I spent some time listening to the USSR's version of VOA. Seemed like every other week the USSR was either in danger of being attacked by the US. Of course conditions in the USSR were top notch. Russians supermarkets were A-1 with only best produce.

[Rooster]

In the end utopian social systems like Communism and Socialism resort to blunt force...

...says the citizen of the country with the highest incarceration rate in the entire world.

Granted, but being put in prison for run-of-the-mill robbery, fraud, rape, or murder isn’t in the same ballpark as being convicted of thought crimes against the State or daring to <gulp!> run a political campaign for higher office in a virtual dictator for life regime.

[Rooster]

Ok, I found it, Phibes. Jonah Goldberg discusses utopian society in this article:

https://www.nationalreview.com/g-file/s ... mpossible/

[Dr_Phibes]

man’s baser instincts cannot be excised regardless the ideology or punishment/reward system installed.

Sorry comrade. Human nature is what you perform when you go to the toilet. Human conditioning, the way you interact in a society, is malleable. You're confusing Herbert Spencer with Darwin. Self-criticism for you. :(

[Dr_Phibes]

Of course, both Russia and China are beyond reproach when it comes to state information.

Back in the early 80s I had a shortwave radio. I spent some time listening to the USSR's version of VOA. Seemed like every other week the USSR was either in danger of being attacked by the US. Of course conditions in the USSR were top notch. Russians supermarkets were A-1 with only best produce.

Hope you took revenge for this injustice. Flooding the ladies room with transvestites would be good. Personally I'd look for small business owners with not-up-to-code wheelchair access ramps. Carry on the good fight, Lefty.

[BSmack]

Back in the early 80s I had a shortwave radio. I spent some time listening to the USSR's version of VOA. Seemed like every other week the USSR was either in danger of being attacked by the US. Of course conditions in the USSR were top notch. Russians supermarkets were A-1 with only best produce.

Hope you took revenge for this injustice. Flooding the ladies room with transvestites would be good. Personally I'd look for small business owners with not-up-to-code wheelchair access ramps. Carry on the good fight, Lefty.

Injustice? You mean comedy gold. Please don't pretend the Brezhnev/Andropov/Chernenko years were anything but an unmitigated cluster fuck.

[Dr_Phibes]

Under Brezhnev was stability and constancy. Uneventful.
Andropov was a wanker towards the DPRK, Kim Il Sung gave him a slap and he went home. Not much else to report.

[Derron]

The US has a higher incarceration percentage than China & Russia?

Maybe a higher reported incarceration percentage, I doubt otherwise.

Because being taken to the basement of the Lubyanka and having Putin put a fucking cap in your dome does not count on that metric.

or the Chinese standing 100 or so dissenters standing on the edge of a pit and hosing them with AK's.

[Goober McTuber]

Ok, I found it, Phibes. Jonah Goldberg discusses utopian society in this article:

https://www.nationalreview.com/g-file/s ... mpossible/

Hey Marty, that Goldberg wanker is one of your people. What say you?

[Rooster]

man’s baser instincts cannot be excised regardless the ideology or punishment/reward system installed.

Sorry comrade. Human nature is what you perform when you go to the toilet. Human conditioning, the way you interact in a society, is malleable. You're confusing Herbert Spencer with Darwin. Self-criticism for you. :(

So to be clear, you believe man can be made perfect? You can teach or train people to do no wrong or commit no errors? How malleable is malleable? A wee bit where you can stop all jaywalking, but murders are too large a project?

What about babies? Are they born perfect and descend into bad behavior or are they inherently bad and must be taught how to be good?

This is the crux of our views of humanity. Believers in a utopian society think that it’s all upward and onward despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Rooster]

On a different note, I must say that Phibes is the only unmitigated admirer of the Commie system I know or have heard of in years— and those who used to cheerlead for the Sovs back in the day, I’d always assumed the political commissar had a Makarov pistol screwed into their ear. Huh. A true believer. I don’t know whether to laugh at you or feel pity.

[Dinsdale]

http://www.wweek.com/news/2018/05/09/he ... er-impact/


The transplants are such a wonderful addition to my town.

[Rooster]

C’mon down Omletteville! https://youtu.be/LCUKya4gLFM[/youtube]

[smackaholic]

Phibes,

There were some advantages to the Soviet System.

It was safe.

Scumbags were not tolerated.

But there's one small problem.

What happens when the dude in charge is corrupt/incompetent?

I think socialism can work, on a very small scale, where it is completely voluntary. This was, if you decide the socialist unit you are part of isn't your cup of tea, you have some ability to move onto a different one, or if you are a selfish asshole, set out on your own.

Sometimes I think maybe the chinks are on to something. They have nationwide strict control over political matters and make infrastructure decisions, but beyond that they are way more laisse-faire concerning smaller economic decisions, than we have been in over a century.

[Rooster]

The USSR was only safe for those who were unquestioning political apparatchiks. Anybody else was forever in danger of being disappeared at 2:00 am after a knock at the door.

[BSmack]

Sometimes I think maybe the chinks are on to something. They have nationwide strict control over political matters and make infrastructure decisions, but beyond that they are way more laisse-faire concerning smaller economic decisions, than we have been in over a century.

https://www.lostateminor.com/2013/10/24 ... -in-china/

[Dr_Phibes]

That's crazy, production must be off the charts! Great to see the steel industry in action, just like it used to be in.. uh.. oh oh. sorry guys

redux:

Boy I sure hate pollution. It's bad for kids and .. fish. And the ocean. And littering is bad too. And pollution.

[smackaholic]

Sometimes I think maybe the chinks are on to something. They have nationwide strict control over political matters and make infrastructure decisions, but beyond that they are way more laisse-faire concerning smaller economic decisions, than we have been in over a century.

https://www.lostateminor.com/2013/10/24 ... -in-china/

So long as they pay their taxes, the chink gubmint don't give a fukk. It's not like they don't have another billion plus people.

[BSmack]

You have to appreciate the old style commies. There was a lot of commitment there.

[Dr_Phibes]

Board game escalation.