T1B

Err did he post here?

You’re looking for all the Trump-ball-washing, unintelligent, hypocritical deplorables. Yes, many of them here.

Screw_Michigan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:36 pmErr did he post here?

Not sure, but I can tell you the poster with whom I went to Put-in-Bay (and I believe it was South Bass Island) is still alive and well. (Unlike Johnny Winter)

Screw_Michigan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:36 pm Err did he post here?

Only 38 years old, with gray in his beard. This is terrible. Did he die because they vented him? Or what happened?

Because masks are for keeping others safe, not you. It's better than nothing, but it's not a magical shield.

IB didn't know ventilators were a cause of death?

Yeah, precaution and prevention are exercises of probability. The mask deniers are low IQ and don't understand numbers.

Bill in Houston wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:27 pm IB didn't know ventilators were a cause of death?

Yeah, precaution and prevention are exercises of probability. The mask deniers are low IQ and don't understand numbers.

No I didn't know vents were the cause of his death. Vents and the meds associated with them are money makers, but they are dangerous to covid patients. Ventilators are the reasons for death not recovery.

So physicians use ventilators and meds to kill their patients and profit from it.

Way to tighten up that tinfoil hat.

Do you know what a ventilator is???

A device to facilitate breathing when the patient is unable to do so on their own?!?!

Doctors will use them when necessary. When patients self breathing fails. You do understand what happens to a patient when they stop breathing on their own??

Why are you playing like this?

Bill in Houston wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:39 pmDo you know what a ventilator is???

A device to facilitate breathing when the patient is unable to do so on their own?!?!

Doctors will use them when necessary. When patients self breathing fails. You do understand what happens to a patient when they stop breathing on their own??

Why are you playing like this?

I sorta understand the position she's taking. You're right about the function of ventilators, but it's a double-edged sword. Health care pros will tell you that when patients are put on vents, their goal is to get them off of them as quickly as possible, not so much for the obvious reason (no longer needed), but because the longer they're on them, the harder it is to wean them off; their lungs become dependent on them, and taking them off of them sometimes results in death. Technically, the vents aren't killing them, but when dependence on them occurs, it's either a death sentence or the patient is on it for what's left of a miserable life.

And the alternative????

Bill in Houston wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:39 pm Do you know what a ventilator is???

A device to facilitate breathing when the patient is unable to do so on their own?!?!

Doctors will use them when necessary. When patients self breathing fails. You do understand what happens to a patient when they stop breathing on their own??

Why are you playing like this?

Because Black people are dead because of a China bioweapon, Chinese incompetence, and getting sweet Covid cash superceded mandating actual care for blacks.

Too much ventilator use for covid19 patients
https://www.livescience.com/too-much-ve ... ients.html

The Great Ventilator Fiasco of COVID-19— Is this one of the biggest challenges facing science?
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectious ... id19/86220

As virus advances doctors rethink rush to ventilate
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKCN2251PE

Chinese doctors were the ones to advise the world to invasively intubate ASAP...
https://fortune.com/2020/03/09/coronavi ... -covid-19/


...and n.iggas died
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opin ... monia.html

Doctors say ventilators overused for Covid19
https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doc ... -covid-19/

The Italians said learn from us. They were the first to find out the hard way China was wrong about invasive ventilating. Europe eventually figured out noninvasive was the way to go.

Smackie Chan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:07 pm

Bill in Houston wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:39 pmDo you know what a ventilator is???

A device to facilitate breathing when the patient is unable to do so on their own?!?!

Doctors will use them when necessary. When patients self breathing fails. You do understand what happens to a patient when they stop breathing on their own??

Why are you playing like this?

I sorta understand the position she's taking. You're right about the function of ventilators, but it's a double-edged sword. Health care pros will tell you that when patients are put on vents, their goal is to get them off of them as quickly as possible, not so much for the obvious reason (no longer needed), but because the longer they're on them, the harder it is to wean them off; their lungs become dependent on them, and taking them off of them sometimes results in death. Technically, the vents aren't killing them, but when dependence on them occurs, it's either a death sentence or the patient is on it for what's left of a miserable life.

What does MamaMustanger hear, from those who haven't retired yet?

Plenty of good info out there. Thanks for the links.

However none of it says that ventilators are killing people.

They state that earlier detection (hello testing) is needed so that other procedures can be used before resorting to a vent machine.

COVID-19 doesn’t present typical severe pneumonia symptoms, even though oxygen uptake is greatly compromised. This means sick people don’t feel sick, or at least they don’t struggle with breathing until several days after contracting the disease. If diagnosed earlier other options could be used more successfully.

Still not indicating the cause of death as vent, but rather severe COVID pneumonia. If progressed far enough the ventilator is the only option other than stopping breath/dying.

Bill in Houston wrote:And the alternative????

"Ideally," none, meaning a ventilator should be the last course of action to save a patient because of the risks involved. Non-invasive means of keeping the lungs working on their own should be at least considered and hopefully tried before putting a patient on a vent.

Innocent Bystander wrote:What does MamaMustanger hear, from those who haven't retired yet?

That she should be very glad that she retired when she did, and that she'd be hating life if she were still working under the conditions to which her former co-workers are currently subjected. The hours, PPE discomfort, stress, and reassignment of duties and responsibilities are reportedly significantly less than enjoyable.

She also had a lot to say regarding the vent discussion. Let me first say that my mom was one of the patients to whom I was referring earlier. She had pulmonary fibrosis and was placed on a vent. Docs tried several times unsuccessfully to wean her off it. The decision was ultimately made to pull the plug because she was never going to be able to be taken out of a medically-induced coma and get off the vent.

According to mama, who should not be considered an authority but has greater experience, exposure to, and working knowledge of this subject than most of us, insurance pays hospitals $13K if a patient is diagnosed with COVID, and $39K if the patient is put on a vent. She, and all of us, would like to think that the decision to place a patient on a vent is purely driven by medical criteria and not by financial ones. But we also know that money talks, so it's likely some patients are being ventilated before other options have been exhausted. However, vent patients require higher levels of care and are susceptible to infections which, if acquired during hospitalization, are not covered by insurance and become the hospital's responsibility, so there is risk to the hospital incurred by venting patients. Similar to the restaurant business, in which getting patrons in and out as quickly as possible allows for greater revenue, hospitals want to do the same thing - discharge patients as soon as possible, or as mama says, "treat 'em & street 'em." While the hospital gets more insurance $$ for vent patients, none of that (allegedly) flows down to the docs who make the decisions to go the vent route, although it's not hard to believe that pressure may be applied by administrators to increase vent use.

Statistically, blacks and Hispanics are more likely than whites of having diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease, which puts them at greater risk of suffering more severe COVID complications. That might help to explain some disproportionality of vent use among minority patients, but certainly not all of it. As mama said, there are too many factors to be able to draw concrete conclusions at this point, and as was mentioned in some of the linked articles you posted, there are abnormalities in what medical professionals are seeing in COVID patients (e.g., the 93% benchmark for blood oxygen levels) that run counter to SOPs.

There is still much to learn about the virus, COVID, and treatments for it within the medical community. IMO, anyone who says they know what's best, especially those outside the profession, are talking out their asses.

You know the old colloquial saying "I hit the lottery?" Mamamustanger retiring when she did is hitting the lottery.

Screw_Michigan wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:38 pmYou know the old colloquial saying "I hit the lottery?" Mamamustanger retiring when she did is hitting the lottery.

She was due, since she obviously scored the booby prize when she got married.

Smackie wrote:MO, anyone who says they know what's best, especially those outside the profession, are talking out their asses.

Our board members here are pretty reserved in their commentary.

Nobody really ever talks out their ass, do they?

Softball Bat wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:13 pmNobody really ever talks out their ass, do they?

Not that I've noticed.