Seems like the perfect solution to the question of green energy storage.
The only question is can it be made for anything close to a reasonable cost. My guess is that it might, if we do a lot of it.
Use all those green electrons to make H2 from water and combine it with the C from the air to make a stable liquid fuel that burns just like gasoline. It solves the distribution network problem as it is already there. It also gets rid of the problem of having a large percentage of your car's weight be dedicated to batteries. It also means we can use our limited supply of precious metals for things that really do need batteries.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:23 pm
by smackaholic
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:12 pm
Found this on the youtube this morning....
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
If you'd perfer not to sit through a half hour of limey's funny pronunciation of the letter H, it's about making hydrocarbons chemically from water and CO2.
Seems like the perfect solution to the question of green energy storage.
The only question is can it be made for anything close to a reasonable cost. My guess is that it might, if we do a lot of it.
Use all those green electrons to make H2 from water and combine it with the C from the air to make a stable liquid fuel that burns just like gasoline. It solves the distribution network problem as it is already there. It also gets rid of the problem of having a large percentage of your car's weight be dedicated to batteries. It also means we can use our limited supply of precious metals for things that really do need batteries.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:07 pm
by Mikey
I’ll have to watch this and get back to you. But some initial thoughts. The big challenge starting off is creating enough “green” H2. That will take a fuckload of offshore PV and/or wind. Most all of the H2 these days comes from reformed natural gas, a process that produces significant CO2.
You’re right that there’s almost no H2 infrastructure at this point except in some small areas. The current natural gas infrastructure could possibly be adapted at some point. I think that some of the gas utilities are seeing that writing on the wall and starting to plan for it. As far as synfuel vs H2 as a fuel for vehicles I think that both have advantages and disadvantages. Synfuel could power internal combustion engines with a carbon neutral fuel but I think that they would still produce significant NOX, which is a major component of air pollution. H2 vehicles are essentially EVs with the battery mostly replaced by an H2 tank and fuel cell, which converts the H2 back to electricity with only water as a byproduct. Though this system has a lower overall efficiency (I think) than battery electric, due to the losses converting electric energy to H2 and back again, there’s a higher energy density (kWh per kg) than batteries, and also much quicker fueling.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:10 pm
by smackaholic
Pardon me/go fukk yourself on the initial double post.
Yeah, making lots of H2 is a challenge, but if your PV/windfarms make so damn much power, turning it into H2 and O and mixing it with the C from CO2, to make a dense, easy to store ad transport fuel.
A question that Mr fatasssmartypants might be able to answer is can we use salt water for large scale hydrolysis or does all that salt muck things up?
I ask because our best source of PV, the D&L is sorta out of fresh water. I guess a solution is to pipe the electrons to the fresh water to the north/east.
We do have plenty of each in other areas.
This could also be a good use of nuke power.
As for your valid point that it doesn't solve the NOX problem, you are correct. The solution is to push towards heavy EV use in certain urban areas where pollution is a problem. I am the first to admit that EVs beat anything else for urban commutes under 40 miles round trip. Many plugin hybrids can handle these without firing up the ICE. We should be pushing cheap lightweight 60 mile range EVs for this purpose. and for places with decent weather ebikes fill this roll perfectly.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:36 pm
by mvscal
Mikey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:07 pm
The current natural gas infrastructure could possibly be adapted at some point..
Or we could simply use the natural gas as fuel. H2 is a joke and EVs are a catastrophic (not to mention real) environmental disaster.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Mikey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:07 pm
The current natural gas infrastructure could possibly be adapted at some point..
Or we could simply use the natural gas as fuel. H2 is a joke and EVs are a catastrophic (not to mention real) environmental disaster.
It would be worth the added cost just to shut up the chicken little AGW CO2 is the devil idiots. These whores and their politician masters aren't interested in actual data. They will have their carbon reduction one way or the other. This is a much better and less ecologically damaging than strip mining the planet for the materials to build the eleventy bazillion lithium cells needed to store all that awesome green power.
I agree with you about H2 for mobile applications. It is just to damn difficult to store economically.
Of course the best way to do it is to start building modular nuke plants on a production line to get costs under control. This is the one thing that douchebag Bill Gates is for that actually makes sense. Actually, there is one other thing he's doing that I'm a fan of and that is affordable composting toilets to try to keep the third world from drowning in their own poo.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Mikey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:07 pm
The current natural gas infrastructure could possibly be adapted at some point..
Or we could simply use the natural gas as fuel. H2 is a joke and EVs are a catastrophic (not to mention real) environmental disaster.
I partially agree with you regarding EVs. They are a terrible idea for long range travel. They're a good idea for urban commuter duty. They'd be even better if we'd drop the insane crash standards that require every vehicle out there to weigh half again as much as it might if the standards were lowered.
Why is it OK to buy a 400 lb motorcycle with ZERO crash protection, but it is illegal to sell a 1-2 seater 800 lb vehicle that would require very little battery and use very little other resurces to build, because our laws say it has 4 wheels, therefore it must be able to protect the occupant in a horrific head on crash?
We should have crash standards, so a person knows the level of safety he or she is buying. But they should not be mandatory. I would pay extra for a vehicle my wife was driving our kids around in because, well, women suck at driving and kids are a PITA to replace. But I would like to be able to buy a cheap 1 or 2 passenger vehicle with little crash protection, as it would allow me to spend that money on good IPAs or other stuff. Plus, urban commutes typically happen at speeds where a crash wouldn't do much anyway.
Unfortunately, we can't have these choices in this country because politicians think we're too stupid to make them.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:00 am
by Sudden Sam
As long as everyone is cool with destroying the earth via mining and battery disposal, EVs are the ticket.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:40 am
by smackaholic
Bjorn Lomborg is the guy to listen to on this topic. His field of expertise is the economics of global solutions to various problems including energy.
He admits that he thinks AGW is a thing and that rising CO2 levels is a problem, but going all in on PV and wind is a terrible idea as it delivers very little bang for the buck. He is all for putting more into developing solutions that will make a difference. He is also for nuke fission as a short term solution and continuing to fund research on the holy grail of energy solution, fusion.
Haven't heard his take on syn gasoline, but I look forward to it. He'll be the guy to listen to regarding its economic feasibility.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 1:56 am
by Screw_Michigan
Booger wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:00 am
As long as everyone is cool with destroying the earth via mining and battery disposal, EVs are the ticket.
Or we can stop requiring personal car ownership as a minimal cost of being a productive member of society and invest in giving people options, but I digress.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Booger wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:00 am
As long as everyone is cool with destroying the earth via mining and battery disposal, EVs are the ticket.
Or we can stop requiring personal car ownership as a minimal cost of being a productive member of society and invest in giving people options, but I digress.
Where is car ownership mandatory?
I can think of many places people get along just fine without them. I believe you are one.
Oh, wait, you said "productive members of society", my bad.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:07 am
by Screw_Michigan
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:00 am
Where is car ownership mandatory?
I can think of many places people get along just fine without them. I believe you are one.
Oh, wait, you said "productive members of society", my bad.
All jokes aside, you are being disingenuous. One of the great things about living in the District itself is robust mass transit. I'm lucky I can live without the massive expense of personal car ownership. It's roughly $800 per month to own a car. More money in my pocket instead of flushing it down the toilet.
If we're serious about reducing the negative effects of climate change through our transportation choices, converting to EVs is a total joke. Reducing the requirement of personal car ownership to be considered a functional member of society, and not being a fucking idiot like Suckaholic, is critical.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:00 am
Where is car ownership mandatory?
I can think of many places people get along just fine without them. I believe you are one.
Oh, wait, you said "productive members of society", my bad.
All jokes aside, you are being disingenuous. One of the great things about living in the District itself is robust mass transit. I'm lucky I can live without the massive expense of personal car ownership. It's roughly $800 per month to own a car. More money in my pocket instead of flushing it down the toilet.
If we're serious about reducing the negative effects of climate change through our transportation choices, converting to EVs is a total joke. Reducing the requirement of personal car ownership to be considered a functional member of society, and not being a fucking idiot like Suckaholic, is critical.
I actually agree that more could be done to make more places car free friendly. Where we disagree is that I don't think it should come through banning cars or making them prohibitively expensive.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:52 am
by Screw_Michigan
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:14 am
I actually agree that more could be done to make more places car free friendly. Where we disagree is that I don't think it should come through banning cars or making them prohibitively expensive.
You do understand that almost every aspect of our transportation system depends on the massive government subsidization of cars, right? Roads, gas, parking, etc. If Americans paid the sticker price for their cars and everything else that goes with them, we'd have far fewer cars and much higher demand for transportation alternatives.
You know it's true. Again, nobody said you had to like it.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:00 am
Where is car ownership mandatory?
I can think of many places people get along just fine without them. I believe you are one.
Oh, wait, you said "productive members of society", my bad.
All jokes aside, you are being disingenuous. One of the great things about living in the District itself is robust mass transit. I'm lucky I can live without the massive expense of personal car ownership. It's roughly $800 per month to own a car. More money in my pocket instead of flushing it down the toilet.
If we're serious about reducing the negative effects of climate change through our transportation choices, converting to EVs is a total joke. Reducing the requirement of personal car ownership to be considered a functional member of society, and not being a fucking idiot like Suckaholic, is critical.
I actually agree that more could be done to make more places car free friendly. Where we disagree is that I don't think it should come through banning cars or making them prohibitively expensive.
Blind squirrel is right. You use zoning laws to make it to where people don’t need to drive then you connect them with trains.
Hope that helps.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
smackaholic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:14 am
I actually agree that more could be done to make more places car free friendly. Where we disagree is that I don't think it should come through banning cars or making them prohibitively expensive.
You do understand that almost every aspect of our transportation system depends on the massive government subsidization of cars, right? Roads, gas, parking, etc. If Americans paid the sticker price for their cars and everything else that goes with them, we'd have far fewer cars and much higher demand for transportation alternatives.
You know it's true. Again, nobody said you had to like it.
There's no need to have fewer cars.
It's left-wing bullshit.
You have never been anywhere where trains are used have you?
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:14 pm
by Screw_Michigan
Kierland wrote: ↑Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:03 pm
Blind squirrel is right. You use zoning laws to make it to where people don’t need to drive then you connect them with trains.
Hope that helps.
Suckaholic is car-brained like everyone else. All the drivers in the DC metro area think that roads are free and that they deserve free and plentiful parking to temporarily store their personal property. If they don't get what they want, they park in crosswalks and bike lanes and bus lanes and block curb cuts. And then the mayor and city council coddle these pieces of shit and make it easier for them to drive on expired plates and with excessive unpaid fines. It's truly disgusting.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Or we could simply use the natural gas as fuel. H2 is a joke and EVs are a catastrophic (not to mention real) environmental disaster.
Whatever you say.
Nice white flag.
Look at it however you want. It’s just not worth arguing with intentional ignorance.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:22 am
by mvscal
H2 does not and will not ever have the energy density to be an efficient fuel and EVs are a fucking horror show of environmental devastation and human misery.
These points aren't even arguable. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for saving the planet in your electric grocery getter while black kids are choking to death on toxic dust in artisnal cobalt mines in Congo.
.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Listened to Kara's interview with Joe Rogan. Absolutely heart wrenching abuse is happening and every person in the developed world shares responsibiity.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:07 am
by Diego in Seattle
mvscal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:22 am
H2 does not and will not ever have the energy density to be an efficient fuel and EVs are a fucking horror show of environmental devastation and human misery.
These points aren't even arguable. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for saving the planet in your electric grocery getter while black kids are choking to death on toxic dust in artisnal cobalt mines in Congo.
.
We observed how concerned you conservatives are about toxic environmental issues are killing black children in Flint.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
mvscal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:22 am
H2 does not and will not ever have the energy density to be an efficient fuel and EVs are a fucking horror show of environmental devastation and human misery.
These points aren't even arguable. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for saving the planet in your electric grocery getter while black kids are choking to death on toxic dust in artisnal cobalt mines in Congo.
.
We observed how concerned you conservatives are about toxic environmental issues are killing black children in Flint.
Yeah, decades of local Republican rule caused that place to go to shit. Wait, that isn't right. Flint has been in Democrat hands pretty much for ever, like every other rust belt city. What happened there wasn't a rep/dem problem. It was just garden variety local government incompetence. No different really than federal government incompetence other than the feds have a printing press and you can't escape it by moving to the next county.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
mvscal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:22 am
H2 does not and will not ever have the energy density to be an efficient fuel and EVs are a fucking horror show of environmental devastation and human misery.
These points aren't even arguable. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for saving the planet in your electric grocery getter while black kids are choking to death on toxic dust in artisnal cobalt mines in Congo.
.
We observed how concerned you conservatives are about toxic environmental issues are killing black children in Flint.
Yeah, decades of local Republican rule caused that place to go to shit. Wait, that isn't right. Flint has been in Democrat hands pretty much for ever, like every other rust belt city. What happened there wasn't a rep/dem problem. It was just garden variety local government incompetence. No different really than federal government incompetence other than the feds have a printing press and you can't escape it by moving to the next county.
At the time that the toxic water was sent through to the citizens of Flint the city was under the authority of an emergency manager who was appointed by a republican governor. And when the residents of Flint complained that republican governor ignored their complaints for roughly 450 days.
Flint's elected officials probably ran the city into bankruptcy, but they weren't the ones who failed to do their due diligence before switching the water sources nor were they the ones who ignored the reports of brown water.
Re: Hey Mikey and the rest of you green fascists....
