another reason why religion does not belong in public School

[Mister Bushice]

Because as soon as you do, every sect will be vying to have their version of god and religion represented, and in the end, the reality of religion will not be taught, only the dogma of the winners.

Watchdog Group Attacks School Bible Study

By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Writer Tue Aug 2, 7:04 AM ET

AUSTIN, Texas - A religious watchdog group complained Monday that a Bible study course taught in hundreds of public schools in Texas and across the country promotes a fundamentalist Christian view and violates religious freedom.
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The Texas Freedom Network, which includes clergy of several faiths, also said the course offered by the Greensboro, N.C.-based National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools is full of errors and dubious research.

The producers of the Bible class dismissed the Texas Freedom Network as a "far left" organization trying to suppress study of a historical text.

The National Council on Bible Curriculum Web site says its elective course is offered in high schools and junior highs by more than 300 school districts in 37 states.

Texas Freedom Network President Kathy Miller said her group looked at the course after the Odessa school board voted in April to offer the class. It asked Southern Methodist University biblical scholar Mark A. Chancey to review the curriculum.

Chancey's review found that the course characterizes the Bible as inspired by God, that discussions of science are based on the biblical account of creation, that Jesus is referred to as fulfilling Old Testament prophecy, and that archaeological findings are erroneously used to support claims of the Bible's historical accuracy.

He said the course also suggests the Bible, instead of the Constitution, be considered the nation's founding document.

"No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them," the Rev. Ragan Courtney, pastor of The Sanctuary, a Baptist congregation in Austin, said at a news conference held by Texas Freedom Network.

Elizabeth Ridenour, president of the Bible class group, accused the Texas Freedom Network of censorship.

"They are actually quite fearful of academic freedom, and of local schools deciding for themselves what elective courses to offer their citizens," she said in a statement.

According to the Texas Freedom Network, 52 Texas school districts offer the class. In Odessa, more than 6,000 people signed a petition in support before it was approved in April.

Although representatives of the Bible council have attended school board meetings in Odessa, superintendent Wendell Sollis said course materials have not yet been selected.

Miller said the Texas Freedom Network supports study of the Bible as a significant historical text, but not in a way that amounts to religious indoctrination

[Left Seater]

I attended Texas High Schools in the late 80's early 90's. Back then we had an optional class based on the Bible. This class was optional and in a HS of 4,000 there was only two sections each year. I took the class as a Jr.

Compare that with some of the other classes I was REQUIRED to take in order to graduate. Earth Science where the teacher told us Darwin was the end all be all, but could never answer our question about what led to the big bang. Health, in which safe sex was discussed without ever mentioning abstinence and taught by someone who was on the planned parent hood board. Economics where we spend a whole semester looking into the advantages of communisim and socialism. And finally history where I was taught to be ashamed at being a white male.

So if a public school wants to have an elective class given all the required garbage I say go ahead.

Furthermore, public HS's will never get religion out of their halls. Those of us who volunteer for organizations like Young Life, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, etc will bring Christ's message to the HS regardless of what they teach the students on a daily basis.

[poptart]

What part of ELECTIVE are you struggling to comprehend, dumbfuck?

[Mister Bushice]

Typical mvscal Editing and interpretation.

He said the course also suggests the Bible, instead of the Constitution, be considered the nation's founding document.

gee, no coercion there.

"No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them," the Rev. Ragan Courtney, pastor of The Sanctuary, a Baptist congregation in Austin, said at a news conference held by Texas Freedom Network.

If the class is being used to educate peopel on the background and history of the bible as opposed to its teachings, that is one thing. Open the doors to all religions from an education point of view. But if the class is being used to teach the tenets of christianity even as an elective it has no place in public schools unless you allow every single religious group out there to offer an elective on their religion.

[Mister Bushice]

Thank you. My opinion on it remains. :)

[ChargerMike]

Yet another example of a board liberal scouring the internet for a contreversy only to have their anal-ysis of the article shredded by mvscal or Tom in va.

Do you guys never tire of being bitch slapped?

I'm for ya..

[Mister Bushice]

Actually I didn't "scour" anything. It popped up on yahoo news.

And having all the christians disagree with me is hardly a slap, and doesn't change my mind at all. Religion, in any form, should not be taught in public schools.

[Mister Bushice]

You espouse their beliefs.

[Mister Bushice]

You defend their beliefs all the time.

Don't stress. I get labeled a liberal all the time, and it ain't true. :)

Plus, there's always the fact that you just like to disagree with everyone so you can insult them.

[ChargerMike]

Main Entry: 3scour
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English scuren, probably of Scandinavian origin; akin to Swedish skura to rush
intransitive senses : to move about quickly especially in search
transitive senses : to go through or range over in or as if in a search

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You defend their beliefs all the time.

I get labeled a liberal all the time, and it ain't true. :)

Link?

Nevermind. I've come across some of your more recent Zell Miller moments. Quite an accomplishment...

[Mister Bushice]

Zell Miller? Haven't really read anything of consequence of his.

[Mister Bushice]

You defend their beliefs all the time.

No, I don't. I'm not defending their beliefs here. I simply don't support the censorship of their beliefs.

Would you allow the teachings of the Koran to be offered as an elective using the same guidelines?

[Mister Bushice]

So you only defend censorship of those things you think deserve it, and you dont' consider that defending or supporting a specific belief system?

You can't have it both ways. Either allow all or accept your label as supporting one.

[Mister Bushice]

We are not at war with Islam, we are at war with terrorists. Christianity has a history of just as much violence, and people could utilize biblical scripture in the same way.

[Mister Bushice]

D. You are full of shit.

I knew you'd get around to that eventually, no matter what.

[Mister Bushice]

We are not at war with Islam, we are at war with terrorists.

Islamic terrorists and their "moderate" enablers.

Most US and some EURO and middle east muslims have distanced themselves from the terrorists through fatwas. The terrorists represent a small fraction of the islamic religion, therefore we are islamic fighting terrorists not islam. Get it straight.

Christianity has a history of just as much violence, and people could utilize biblical scripture in the same way.

A. That's arguable. Islam is a religion founded by a militant for militants. It is inherently political and violent. Quite frankly, it is these mythical "peace loving Muslims" who are practicing a perversion of true Islam.

Lets roll back the clock and recall the christian crusades, The corruption, greed, murder and avarice that was the early roman catholic church, The christian religious persecution in the 14 and 1500s, and the endless stream of biblical quotes that speak of violence. Anyone could interpret the bible to suit their use.

B. Christian Crusades are ancient history. Islamic Jihads are current events.

No shit? What about abortion clinic bombings? time frame dDoesn't make the concept of violence through religion any different.

C. People aren't utilizing biblical scripture in the same way.

They can

D. You are full of shit.

Only right before my morning dump.

[Mister Bushice]

Most US and some EURO and middle east muslims have distanced themselves from the terrorists through fatwas.

And the practical effect of that is what?

That the majority of muslims do not believe in terrorism as a means of expressing their faith.

The terrorists represent a small fraction of the islamic religion,

How small? Try to be specific.

Total number of muslims world wide is about 1.2 billion.
Total number of active islamic terrorists worldwide fluctuates constantly but is estimated to be around 200,000. Do the math. even if there were 5 million it would still only be a fraction of the total number of adherents.

What about abortion clinic bombings?

What about them? How many clinics have been bombed. How many people have been killed. How many bombers have been involved.

Inconsequential. The fact remains the potential is there.

=Let's do a side by side comparison of "Christian" vs. Islamic violence.

Lets not. The point is that both religions are capable of generating violence through their tenets. Period. I'm not talking numbers here, but potential.

time frame dDoesn't make the concept of violence through religion any different.

We aren't dealing with "concepts", dumbfuck. We're dealing with killers operating in the HERE AND NOW not a thousand years ago.

And next decade there could be a christian group that pops up doing the same thing. The potential is there because the books condone that behavior.

They can

And yet they aren't...

And I for one am glad, because there are 2 billion of those fuckers running around.

Doesn't mean that they are incapable of using their own words to kill.

[jtr]

You defend their beliefs all the time.

No, I don't. I'm not defending their beliefs here. I simply don't support the censorship of their beliefs.

Rack.

[Ang]

I think from the very start this thread missed the point, and went down from there. The point is not that Christian parents want Biblical teachings in public schools. I know very few Christians who expect that.

The real problem is that public schools, even the good ones, will not make a stand on character and behavior. There is some lip service to it, but the public schools as I have seen them are basically measuring machines. They measure if your kid is doing well by grades, and measure if your kid is doing well by either not getting in trouble or getting in trouble. Anything beyond that is beyond them. No one is allowed to actually tell a kid that something may be wrong.

The Christian schools, on the other hand, work at the basis on character and go from there.

I have seen the difference in my kid. He's gone to both public and Christian schools. It goes to the basis of where the are coming from. If a kid knows that his his/her character is an important thing, then they work on it and come from there. If he/she knows that they will only be measured on grades and tests, it's a more empty sort of measurement.

Kids are smart. They know exactly what is expected of them, and if the public schools just focus on test scores that make the school rank high, the kids get it that it's not about them. But if they are faced with teachers who call them to be better and challenge them to be good people and do the best they can, they do.

Kids, especially middle and high school kids, are looking to what they can be. The vaccuum of character leadership in the public schools is not a good place for a kid unless they have really good examples and input at home or in some other group they are involved in.

[Terry in Crapchester]

We are currently at war with Islam

Your leader says we are not.

Earth Science where the teacher told us Darwin was the end all be all, but could never answer our question about what led to the big bang.

Evolution and the Big Bang Theory are two completely different things.

[See You Next Wednesday]

The real problem is that public schools, even the good ones, will not make a stand on character and behavior.

This is a school's responsibility?

A) No
B) No
C) No
D) All of the Above

[SunCoastSooner]

Typical mvscal Editing and interpretation.

He said the course also suggests the Bible, instead of the Constitution, be considered the nation's founding document.

gee, no coercion there.

"No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them," the Rev. Ragan Courtney, pastor of The Sanctuary, a Baptist congregation in Austin, said at a news conference held by Texas Freedom Network.

If the class is being used to educate peopel on the background and history of the bible as opposed to its teachings, that is one thing. Open the doors to all religions from an education point of view. But if the class is being used to teach the tenets of christianity even as an elective it has no place in public schools unless you allow every single religious group out there to offer an elective on their religion.

Maybe you didn't get the memo Bushice but over 85% of the public in this country are Christians.

And having all the christians disagree with me is hardly a slap, and doesn't change my mind at all. Religion, in any form, should not be taught in public schools.

I'm not a Christian and I disagree with you. Try again.

I also agree with Ang. My kids will never set foot in a public school anywhere in this country. I want my kids to understand what moral scruples are. If a Christian private school is our only option then they will attend that school and, when they get old enough to grasp the concept, my wife and I will sit them down and tell them what wonderful priciples the faith of Christianity is based upon but that their father practices a different religion because those are my beliefs and in this country I am afforded the right to practice those beliefs. If that isn't an option my wife is an educator and we are more than finacialy able for her to leave her job and commit to home school.

[Mister Bushice]

Typical mvscal Editing and interpretation.

He said the course also suggests the Bible, instead of the Constitution, be considered the nation's founding document.

gee, no coercion there.

"No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them," the Rev. Ragan Courtney, pastor of The Sanctuary, a Baptist congregation in Austin, said at a news conference held by Texas Freedom Network.

If the class is being used to educate peopel on the background and history of the bible as opposed to its teachings, that is one thing. Open the doors to all religions from an education point of view. But if the class is being used to teach the tenets of christianity even as an elective it has no place in public schools unless you allow every single religious group out there to offer an elective on their religion.

Maybe you didn't get the memo Bushice but over 85% of the public in this country are Christians.

I dont' think it's that high anymore:

Ten years ago, 90 percent of American adults subscribed to an organized religion. Today, only 81 percent do. Seventy-seven percent of the country is Christian, according to the most recent American Religious Identification Survey. But more than 48 million American adults are non-Christian. These include individuals who devoutly practice Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and other religions, as well as those who are agnostic and atheist.

The number of Americans who identify with a religion other than Christianity grew by 32 percent in the last decade, while the number of Christians grew by only 5 percent. The number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion more than doubled in that time period. In fact, this group is now more than 14 percent of the population. That is larger than the percentage of conservative evangelical Christians who supposedly turned the presidential tide in 2004.

And having all the christians disagree with me is hardly a slap, and doesn't change my mind at all. Religion, in any form, should not be taught in public schools.

I'm not a Christian and I disagree with you. Try again.

I also agree with Ang. My kids will never set foot in a public school anywhere in this country. I want my kids to understand what moral scruples are. If a Christian private school is our only option then they will attend that school and, when they get old enough to grasp the concept, my wife and I will sit them down and tell them what wonderful priciples the faith of Christianity is based upon but that their father practices a different religion because those are my beliefs and in this country I am afforded the right to practice those beliefs. If that isn't an option my wife is an educator and we are more than finacialy able for her to leave her job and commit to home school.

Why not inform them before they go to a private Christian school?

I went to 12 years of private Catholic school, so I know all about that stuff. I agree it is a better education and I'm glad I did not go to the POS local public school system, but remember that in the Xtian school the message is their true intent. Christian school has a lot of ecumenical content and practices. I'm not sure you would want the narrow religious opinion to be formed first, then the big picture explanation come after.

Sorry I didn't read back in this thread since its so old. I just wanted to respond to your post.

[SunCoastSooner]

Typical mvscal Editing and interpretation.
gee, no coercion there.
If the class is being used to educate peopel on the background and history of the bible as opposed to its teachings, that is one thing. Open the doors to all religions from an education point of view. But if the class is being used to teach the tenets of christianity even as an elective it has no place in public schools unless you allow every single religious group out there to offer an elective on their religion.

Maybe you didn't get the memo Bushice but over 85% of the public in this country are Christians.

I dont' think it's that high anymore:

Ten years ago, 90 percent of American adults subscribed to an organized religion. Today, only 81 percent do. Seventy-seven percent of the country is Christian, according to the most recent American Religious Identification Survey. But more than 48 million American adults are non-Christian. These include individuals who devoutly practice Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism and other religions, as well as those who are agnostic and atheist.

The number of Americans who identify with a religion other than Christianity grew by 32 percent in the last decade, while the number of Christians grew by only 5 percent. The number of Americans who do not subscribe to any religion more than doubled in that time period. In fact, this group is now more than 14 percent of the population. That is larger than the percentage of conservative evangelical Christians who supposedly turned the presidential tide in 2004.

And having all the christians disagree with me is hardly a slap, and doesn't change my mind at all. Religion, in any form, should not be taught in public schools.

I'm not a Christian and I disagree with you. Try again.

I also agree with Ang. My kids will never set foot in a public school anywhere in this country. I want my kids to understand what moral scruples are. If a Christian private school is our only option then they will attend that school and, when they get old enough to grasp the concept, my wife and I will sit them down and tell them what wonderful priciples the faith of Christianity is based upon but that their father practices a different religion because those are my beliefs and in this country I am afforded the right to practice those beliefs. If that isn't an option my wife is an educator and we are more than finacialy able for her to leave her job and commit to home school.

Why not inform them before they go to a private Christian school?

I went to 12 years of private Catholic school, so I know all about that stuff. I agree it is a better education and I'm glad I did not go to the POS local public school system, but remember that in the Xtian school the message is their true intent. Christian school has a lot of ecumenical content and practices. I'm not sure you would want the narrow religious opinion to be formed first, then the big picture explanation come after.

Sorry I didn't read back in this thread since its so old. I just wanted to respond to your post.

Because I don't think a four or five year old will be able to fully understand why daddy is going to burn in hell. Seriously though, it is because I would like them to be able to grasp why their father is not a Christian before I go off an confuse them too much or cause a bias against Christians. Childrens minds are a funny thing. I also attended private christian and non faith oriented schools when I was younger as well, until I was midway through my freshman year and my father gave me a choice. I chose public high school because of athletics, foolish mistake looking back on it. And Trust me growing up in this family they will have anything but a narrow religious opinion presented to them.

[Mister Bushice]

before I go off an confuse them too much or cause a bias against Christians.

I think it's relatively easy to matter of factly give information to kids about a religion without dissing it, as a matter of fact as long as you believe that religion in general is a fabrication of man, tell them about all of the religions, and tell them why they are going to the christian school.

When I was a kid I found a book called " How the worlds great religions began" It went a long way towards explaining things in easy to understand kid language.

You certainly don't want the brainwashing to occur before they even have a chance to know better, do you? ;)

[SunCoastSooner]

before I go off an confuse them too much or cause a bias against Christians.

I think it's relatively easy to matter of factly give information to kids about a religion without dissing it, as a matter of fact as long as you believe that religion in general is a fabrication of man, tell them about all of the religions, and tell them why they are going to the christian school.

When I was a kid I found a book called " How the worlds great religions began" It went a long way towards explaining things in easy to understand kid language.

You certainly don't want the brainwashing to occur before they even have a chance to know better, do you? ;)

I'm not anti religion, I am certainly far from an atheist, and I don't believe that religion in it's entirety is fabricated.

Ever seen the movie Dogma? I agree a lot with the statement from Chris Rock in it concerning religion and ideas.

[Mister Bushice]

I don't believe that religion in it's entirety is fabricated.

"Created by Man" is what I meant.


Never saw "Dogma"

[SunCoastSooner]

I don't believe that religion in it's entirety is fabricated.

"Created by Man" is what I meant.


Never saw "Dogma"

I don't think religion was created by man. :D I think it has been warped by man and time.

You should see Dogma. Having said that you attended Catholic school for 12 years I promise that you'll never laugh harder.

[See You Next Wednesday]

Life of Brian is a better and funnier commentary on religon.

[Dinsdale]

All you've shown is a liberal activist group with it's knickers in a twist.

PSSSST!

Defending the Bill of Rights in its purest form is a conservative ideal...just so you know.

How funny is it that a few talk show hosts decided to change the definition of the word "liberal" to mean "anyone who doesn't agree with my politics," and you sheep eat it up.

Do you people actually think you sound intelligent or informed when you throw the word "liberal" around without having any clue what it means?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Maybe you didn't get the memo Bushice but over 85% of the public in this country are Christians.

Bushice already refuted this, but even assuming his facts are correct, the overwhelming majority of people in this country identify themselves as "Christians." That having been said, however, "Christians" are anything but a monolithic group, and that term would encompass a wide range of beliefs.

Herein lies the problem with the fundies: the fundies encompass only a small minority of all Christians, albeit they are, far and away, the most vocal of all minority Christian sects. The fundies have co-opted the word "Christian" in such a manner as to imply that the word "Christian" is synonymous with their beliefs and their beliefs only. That is not the case in reality, but they've even managed to get the MSM to buy into this asinine notion. Btw, I'm a Catholic myself, and the fundies think I'm going to burn in hell.

And speaking of Catholic school, I have a heavy Catholic education myself, including Catholic high school and a Catholic undergraduate university (may sound strange to some, but at least in my day, the majority of ND students, although certainly not all, came from Catholic high schools). I'll check out Dogma on your say-so when I get a chance.

[Diogenes]

All you've shown is a liberal activist group with it's knickers in a twist.

PSSSST!

Defending the Bill of Rights in its purest form is a conservative ideal...just so you know.

How funny is it that a few talk show hosts decided to change the definition of the word "liberal" to mean "anyone who doesn't agree with my politics," and you sheep eat it up.

Do you people actually think you sound intelligent or informed when you throw the word "liberal" around without having any clue what it means?

First of all, preserving the BoR in it's purist form would be a Liberal ideal, since it is a Liberal document. Preserving the status quo and the mythical 'wall of seperation' is actually more conservative.

And it wasn't talk show hosts who corrupted the use of the word liberal to be synonymous with left-wing ideologe, that was leftists who couldn't get any support as 'radicals' 'progressives' or 'the new left'. You know, the same asshats who coined the term 'neocon' to misrepresent true liberals.


And there is nothing liberal about either having the state decide what your children must be taught (or can't be taught) or about having a religious test for who is allowed to use public funds to educate the public.

[SunCoastSooner]

Life of Brian is a better and funnier commentary on religon.

Life of Brian doesn't have Selma Hayek stripping in it though does it? :wink:

[Diogenes]

Herein lies the problem with the fundies: the fundies encompass only a small minority of all Christians, albeit they are, far and away, the most vocal of all minority Christian sects. The fundies have co-opted the word "Christian" in such a manner as to imply that the word "Christian" is synonymous with their beliefs and their beliefs only. That is not the case in reality, but they've even managed to get the MSM to buy into this asinine notion.

Aside from being a pejorative to label any Christian who actually believes in inerrency of scripture (I wasn't aware they had started their own 'sect"), who are these 'fundies' you speak of?

And anything to 'prove' the rest of this?

[Diogenes]

Life of Brian is a better and funnier commentary on religon.

Life of Brian doesn't have Selma Hayek stripping in it though does it? :wink:

Actually Dogma was pretty fresh.

Having the main antagonist being an angel named Bartleby (like anyone in America reads Melville anymore) was typical Kevin Smith.

Got to like a director/writer who truely doesn't give a shit if anyone else gets the joke as long as he thinks it's funny.

Plus there was Salma.

[SunCoastSooner]

Life of Brian is a better and funnier commentary on religon.

Life of Brian doesn't have Selma Hayek stripping in it though does it? :wink:

Actually Dogma was pretty fresh.

Having the main antagonist being an angel named Bartleby (like anyone in America reads Melville anymore) was typical Kevin Smith.

Got to like a director/writer who truely doesn't give a shit if anyone else gets the joke as long as he thinks it's funny.

Plus there was Salma.

Not to side track the subject or anything but I agree, dio. My wife turned me onto Kevin Smith a number of years ago. I think he is the funniest director around right now. I wish he would go back to directing more comedies as he has gotten into more and more drama (most people don't know this but he funded "Good Will Hunting"). Having said that I am eagerly anticipating his remake of the Green Hornet. If Chevy Chase would quit being a little bitch and sale him the rights he wants go back and remake the Fletch movies and do them properly like the writter wrote the books.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Herein lies the problem with the fundies: the fundies encompass only a small minority of all Christians, albeit they are, far and away, the most vocal of all minority Christian sects. The fundies have co-opted the word "Christian" in such a manner as to imply that the word "Christian" is synonymous with their beliefs and their beliefs only. That is not the case in reality, but they've even managed to get the MSM to buy into this asinine notion.

Aside from being a pejorative to label any Christian who actually believes in inerrency of scripture (I wasn't aware they had started their own 'sect"), who are these 'fundies' you speak of?

From http://www.dictionary.com

sect.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

So yes, fundies are a sect of Christianity. And they are certainly not the only sect, or even a majority sect, but they are the most vocal.

And anything to 'prove' the rest of this?

The rest is self-evident.

[SunCoastSooner]

Herein lies the problem with the fundies: the fundies encompass only a small minority of all Christians, albeit they are, far and away, the most vocal of all minority Christian sects. The fundies have co-opted the word "Christian" in such a manner as to imply that the word "Christian" is synonymous with their beliefs and their beliefs only. That is not the case in reality, but they've even managed to get the MSM to buy into this asinine notion.

Aside from being a pejorative to label any Christian who actually believes in inerrency of scripture (I wasn't aware they had started their own 'sect"), who are these 'fundies' you speak of?

From http://www.dictionary.com

sect.
1. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
2. A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
3. A faction united by common interests or beliefs.

So yes, fundies are a sect of Christianity. And they are certainly not the only sect, or even a majority sect, but they are the most vocal.

And anything to 'prove' the rest of this?

The rest is self-evident.

There are extremists in just about any group no matter how respectable it is, as I tried to point out on another thread and got piled on. Often it is a vocal minority whose words and actions get the most exposure, unfortunatly.