Sports with no GOAT debate

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 am

Of the big four:
Hockey = Gretzky

Olympics:
Track = Bolt
Swimming = Phelps
Wresting = Karelin

Major individual sports:
Golf = Nicklaus
Tennis = Williams/Federer

The Euros:
Cycling = Merckx

What did I get wrong? What did I miss?

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:58 am

I’d say that Michael Johnson is right there with Bolt.

Winning the 200 and 400 in the same Olympics and holding WRs in both events is fucking insane.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:15 am

The Cannibal is undoubtedly the best cyclist. Utterly dominated everything for years.

Can't really argue with your tennis picks although, if Borg hadn't walked away from tennis as a still very young man, he'd be in the discussion. Borg/MacEnroe was the greatest sports rivalry I ever witnessed. Their Wimbledon finals wars were something.

The golden bear for sure, unless Tiger pulls off 3 or 4 more Masters.

No one will ever challenge Phelps in swimming.

Hockey- Wayne's world for sure. If Bobby Orr's knees didn't go to shit.....maybe.

But why not re-visit the GOATS that have already been beat to death already. I'll be brief.

Football-Jim Brown.

Baseball- Willie Mays

Basketball is tough. MJ, I guess. But no one ever dominated like Wilt. Of course, Wilt was going up against largely slow white dudes. Bill Russell is in the discussion as well.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:15 am

The timed events are tuff because 19.19 is less than 19.32.
I picked Bolt because of the times and the dominance.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:20 am

smackaholic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:15 am The Cannibal is undoubtedly the best cyclist. Utterly dominated everything for years.

Most brutal guy in the most brutal sport. The moniker says it all.
For those who don’t follow cycling it’s just a meh, but for those who do, you know he literally had no flaws.

Softball Bat · Post by **Softball Bat** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:21 am

Moving Sale wrote:Tennis = Federer

This can be debated.

Federer has 20 grand slam titles.
Nadal has 19.

Nadal leads Federer 24-16, head-to-head, and Nadal has a 10-4 record v. Federer when they have faced off in slams.

It is fair to note, however, that the bulk of Nadal's wins over Federer have been on clay, which is by far Nadal's best surfaces and Federer's worst surface.

Grand Slam wins are not the ultimate measure of greatness in tennis, because players of past eras did not put nearly as much emphasis on them.

As recently as the '80's you had many guys simply not going to the Aussie Open.
And even in the '70's, many players also skipped the French Open.

Federer is in the discussion, for sure.
Rod Laver (and others) merit consideration.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:26 am

I said Federer knowing I don’t know much about tennis and you do.
I would gladly take him off the list.
It’s your call.
Not a mountain I’m willing to die on.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:28 am

How about greatest teams?

I gotta go with my sentimental favorite, the late 80s Celtics, simply because it was 5 slow white dudes. How the fukk can that happen?

Yeah, sometimes you had DJ in the lineup, but he had fukking freckles. If you have freckles, sorry, you ain't balck.

Yeah, "Showtime" was easily more talented but fukk those dudes.

In Baseball, have to go with The Big Red Machine. I think that entire lineup might be in the hall now.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:32 am

Kierland wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 am
Hockey = Gretzky

He helped kill hockey. The first star who wasn't a multi-purpose player, he could score and he couldn't do anything else.

This led to convoys of enforcers to protect him and convoys of counter-enforcers to counter them. Leading to nothing but specialists and the banning of roughhouse in entirety. Will never compare to Maurice Richard, Jean Bellveau or Larry Robinson.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:33 am

Poptard,

Where do you think Borg ends up if he doesn't walk away at 26? I think he'd be right there for total majors. He ruled Wimbledon and if I recall, wasn't he pretty tough on clay as well? Of course he never got it done at the US Open.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:36 am

Dr_Phibes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:32 am
Kierland wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 am
Hockey = Gretzky

He helped kill hockey. The first star who wasn't a multi-purpose player, he could score and he couldn't do anything else.

This led to convoys of enforcers to protect him and convoys of counter-enforcers to counter them. Leading to nothing but specialists and the banning of roughhouse in entirety. Will never compare to Maurice Richard, Jean Bellveau or Larry Robinson.

Pussification has occured in all the major sports. Imagine Dick Butkus or Bob Gibson playing today, the way they did back then. They'd both be banned quicker than pickkkle.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:39 am

Lawyers got involved - not blaming him, it was a natural progression, but sad all the same.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:44 am

Dr_Phibes wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:32 am
Kierland wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 am
Hockey = Gretzky

He helped kill hockey. The first star who wasn't a multi-purpose player, he could score and he couldn't do anything else.

This led to convoys of enforcers to protect him and convoys of counter-enforcers to counter them. Leading to nothing but specialists and the banning of roughhouse in entirety. Will never compare to Maurice Richard, Jean Bellveau or Larry Robinson.

So we have another expert knocking down one of my picks.
I will update it later in the thread.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:57 am

^^

That's the picture of a GOAT, you just know it when you see it. He started political riots for Christ sake.

Softball Bat · Post by **Softball Bat** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:58 am

smackaholic wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:33 am Poptard,

Where do you think Borg ends up if he doesn't walk away at 26? I think he'd be right there for total majors. He ruled Wimbledon and if I recall, wasn't he pretty tough on clay as well? Of course he never got it done at the US Open.

Borg won 11 slams (5 Wimbledons and 6 French Opens).

I believe Bjorn never even played the Aussie Open.
If he had, yes, one could easily imagine him winning it multiple times, to perhaps take his total slam number up to around 15.
But like I said, in earlier eras guys were just not that interested in accumulating slam wins.

I'm not sure Borg had all that much left to give at the time he retired.
He was sort of toast.
Had been playing on the pro tour since he was like 16 yrs old.

And in his era, when guys got into the upper-20's, near 30, they very seldom won slams.

If Borg had stayed around he might have netted a couple more slams, but that is not for sure.
McEnroe was younger, hungrier, and he had Bjorn's number.
Also, Lendl and a whole group of younger guys were coming up.

Borg is in the discussion for greatest ever, because he was a truly phenomenal player.
But I would not rate him best ever.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:31 am

I was kind of a big deal at Super Spike Volleyball for the Nintendo Entertainment System.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:47 am

I was going to add Bo in techmo bowl...

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:36 am

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:31 am I was kind of a big deal at Super Spike Volleyball for the Nintendo Entertainment System.

Sinjin Smith and Randy Stoklos for beach volleyball? No clue if they are GOAT, but they were killer in Side Out. Also, Kings of the Beach on NES was tits.

Honestly, Alex Honnold as a Free Solo climber. The shit he pulls off is insane. And if you haven't watched Free Solo, do it soon.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 am

I watched free solo on a flight to Europe recently and came away feeling sorry for the guy. Clearly he is talented but he seems lonely. Then after landing a girl friend he has zero regards for her. Dude sends her away when he goes to solo.

Talent for sure, asshole as well.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:53 am

Killian wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:36 am
Honestly, Alex Honnold as a Free Solo climber. The shit he pulls off is insane. And if you haven't watched Free Solo, do it soon.

Not sure if that is a sport. I will have to think on it.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:52 am

Solid arguments, but the last two that I changed were because I understand that pop and the dr have more knowledge about the sports. I don’t know enough about you to know if I should trust you about swimming.

I am happy to take input from you or anyone else on the board and I will note your objection to Phelps for the record.

Your track objection, as well as mikey’s, have also been noted.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:55 am

Updated:
Of the big four:
Goose egg

Olympics:
Track = Bolt (two votes no)
Swimming = Phelps (one vote no)
Wresting = Karelin

Major individual sports:
Golf = Nicklaus
Tennis = Williams

The Euros:
Cycling = Merckx

Has a motor:
MX = Ricky Carmichael

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:58 am

Left Seater wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 am I watched free solo on a flight to Europe recently and came away feeling sorry for the guy.

Hopefully you remembered to wear your pants on board. Unlike last time.
Shoes are just common decency, not a prerequisite.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:07 am

Auto racing is a tuff one. I will have to research that a little more. If anyone has any input I would be happy to hear it.

I looked up Ricky and his wiki says GOAT in the first paragraph, so he is in.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:43 am

There’s always going to be room for argument because the definition of GOAT is debatable. Jesse Owens probably had the greatest track & field performance in a single Olympics in 1936. 100m, 200m, long jump and 4x100 relay. It also happened in Berlin in front of Hitler and his master race.

Outside of the Olympics, he set three WRs and tied another in a span of 45 minutes at a single meet in 1935.

You could also make an argument for Carl Lewis, who won nine gold medals in the 100m, 200m, 4x100, and long jump (four times).

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 am

Kierland wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:53 am
Killian wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:36 am
Honestly, Alex Honnold as a Free Solo climber. The shit he pulls off is insane. And if you haven't watched Free Solo, do it soon.
Not sure if that is a sport. I will have to think on it.

That will always be the argument; is it a sport or an activity? No score is kept in free soloing. You either live or you die. You're not competing against anyone but yourself.

One of the most impressive physical feats ever completed (free solo of El Cap), but maybe not a sport. I can see both sides of the argument.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:37 am

Left Seater wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 am I watched free solo on a flight to Europe recently and came away feeling sorry for the guy. Clearly he is talented but he seems lonely. Then after landing a girl friend he has zero regards for her. Dude sends her away when he goes to solo.

Talent for sure, asshole as well.

Asshole or on the spectrum. His father was autistic (they believe) and his mother showed almost zero emotion as well. I guess pity isn't the emotion I would have for him. He's up front and honest with everyone in his life. This is what he wants to do and he's not going to change for anyone.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:51 pm

schmick wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:41 am Mark Spitz over Michael Phelps.

In track and field the 100m is the king and the winner of that is the greatest.
In swimming it's the 100m Freestyle....Phelps has never won the 100 Free and when he has won the 4x100 Free relay he's never even swam the fastest leg.
Spitz over Phelps.

Who says the 100 free is everything?

The 100 dash gets a lot of run because, historically the US dominated it....till that damn Jamaican came along. Remember Atlanta, '96?

Who got all the run there?

Michael Johnson in the 400.

There are 4 strokes, multiple distances. Spitz and Phelps could do them all, but Phelps did it for longer and dominated every bit as much as Spitz.

Since we're on Olympic sports, does anyone challenge Eric Heiden?

Dude absolutely crushed everyone during one Olympics.

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:59 pm

Olympic Speed Skating - Heiden

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 pm

Mikey wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:43 am There’s always going to be room for argument because the definition of GOAT is debatable. Jesse Owens probably had the greatest track & field performance in a single Olympics in 1936. 100m, 200m, long jump and 4x100 relay. It also happened in Berlin in front of Hitler and his master race.

That is what this thread is about. Which sports don’t have a debate.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:47 pm

I will add Heiden. And remove Bolt.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:21 pm

Racing- Jim Clark He was in a class by himself, during the golden age of F1. Senna would be a good pick as well. In neckcar there is no arguement. It is King Richard. Mario gets mention because he drove (and won) everything.

I do not consider modern F1 in the discussion as it has become nothing more than an engineering contest. But if you do, Schumacher.

Kierland · Post by **Kierland** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:31 pm

Sounds like F1 is out even though Jim Clark is getting a lot of play.

I’ll add Petty if I don’t hear any objections.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:52 pm

Donkey Kong = Billy Mitchell

DON"T BELIEVE THE LIES.

:x

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Killian wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 am is it a sport or an activity? No score is kept in free soloing.

It should be a sport. With a substantial cash prize -- say $20 million.

Line a bunch of guys up a couple hundred yards from the base. Fire a starter's pistol. First one to the top gets the money.

Full contact free climbing would be rad.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:27 pm

Killian wrote:
Left Seater wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 am I watched free solo on a flight to Europe recently and came away feeling sorry for the guy. Clearly he is talented but he seems lonely. Then after landing a girl friend he has zero regards for her. Dude sends her away when he goes to solo.

Talent for sure, asshole as well.
Asshole or on the spectrum. His father was autistic (they believe) and his mother showed almost zero emotion as well. I guess pity isn't the emotion I would have for him. He's up front and honest with everyone in his life. This is what he wants to do and he's not going to change for anyone.

Yeah I was thinking some Spectrum like things were going on in his head. I watched that movie and even though I knew that the movie would never have been released had he fell, I was still on pins and needles watching him.

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Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:29 pm

I found myself asking the same question. Would they release the film if he killed himself? I think it would have been 50/50.

Wolfman · Post by **Wolfman** » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:02 pm

My 2¢ on some of the topics.
Football---Jim Brown, hands down. Did you know he even threw 3 TD passes ? Hung up his cleats at the peak of his career. (Sup Andrew Luck?)
Hoops---Wilt. If I had to choose someone to play 2 on 2 with me---it would be him. Virtually unstoppable with his fall away jumper.
Racing--- Euro-style: Juan Fangio, NASCAR--Richard Petty, Indy--- AJ Foyt

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:13 pm

I remember watching a movie about Shane McConkey. Amongst other things, he would ski off mountains and then throw his chute. Like most of these guys he died on his last run. What they did was they showed the run up to him jumping off of one of the Dolomites and then flashed to them trying to locate him.

https://www.outsideonline.com/1898186/l ... e-mcconkey

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smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:37 am

Doing that sort of death defying shit when you are young and don't have kids to raise is fine. It's your life.

But when you bring children into the world, you should take measures to see that you will be around to raise them.

This fukker kept poking Chuckie D in the chest. Eventually Chuck grew tired of it.