Lefty

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:30 pm

I have a few questions regarding some rules....

1.In the Iowa-Michigan game on Saturday, Michigan had fumbled the ball and Iowa recovered (actually, from my view it looked like he was down, but that doesn't matter). They called the runner down. The refs in the booth challenged the play and ruled it a fumble and that Iowa recovered. So Iowa got the ball. Since when can you challenge a fumble? In the NFL, you can only challenge a fumble if they called it a fumble. And that's what my understanding of the college challenge rules were. If not, that is the dumbest rule ever.

2.Also, there was another play in the game that I was not sure of. Michigan kicked off and Iowa return man, Shonn Greene, had his momentum carry him from inside the 5 yard line back into the endzone on the return. In the NFL, I know that if your momentum carries you back into the end zone and you are tackled it is a safety. They did not call that on this particular play and I was wondering if there is a difference between the college and NFL game with this rule.

And you should find a copy of this game as you have been wanting me to point out games where the officials have been lousy.....well, this is the prime example. I know you have your "Ref Goggles" on all the time, but I'd bet you that if you watch this game, you'll say to yourself "holy fuck, these refs should be fired." Now, I haven't seen this on TV and I'd like to go back and watch some things from it, but the refs seemed pretty incompetent (and I'm not talking about the 2 plays from above, I'm talking about many other plays).

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:11 pm

f you watch this game, you'll say to yourself "holy fuck, these refs should be fired."

You don't say - Big 10 officials with competence issues?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:12 pm

I know, PSUFAN, can you fucking believe that!!???

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:24 pm

When's the last time you heard a team that won bitch about officiating (sans USC last week)?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:33 pm

Oh, and jon, I made you this av long ago. Need help applying it?

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:49 pm

PSU lost to UM because UM beat them on the field. However, there were badly blown calls in the game that went both ways, as there were in the UM/PSU 2002 contest.
You have UM's clockgate.
You have the 2002 Iowa/PSU game, another game in which there were numerous blown calls.
You have the 2000 Illinois/UM game, in which the Illini simply got screwed - no two ways about it.

My point is not that someone lost, but that the conference officiating in the Big 10 is consistently incompetent.

I didn't see the Iowa Michigan game...maybe it is just sour grapes in that case. Anything specific, JON?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:56 pm

PSUFAN,

I have no sour grapes. I'm mad that Iowa should have won the game but didn't. There was no excuse for losing that game. Bad reffing or not. I've never seen a Kirk Ferentz coached team lose a game like that. Ferentz teams are very good at execution down the stretch and we did not execute and made some boneheaded mistakes and that's why we lost.

However, the refs were horrible.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:59 pm

I have never seen both coaches want to win less than I did during that game. Both coaches bent over and spread wide, hoping the dick would only hit them in the cheek.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:07 pm

However, the refs were horrible.

I'll take your lack of specifics as an indication that you're just whining because you lost.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:08 pm

I agree 100%. Did you see the shovel pass on 3rd and 2 on Iowa's final drive in regulation? That was fucking pathetic. Ken O'Keefe is the worst OC in the history of the game. Our play calling was a joke the entire game. We should have put that game away by halftime.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:12 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:When's the last time you heard a team that won bitch about officiating (sans USC last week)?

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewto ... 279#183279

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:15 pm

You want specifics?

Okay, fine....

Iowa punts, Michigan fumbles. Refs call interference. There was no interference. Iowa would have had the ball with 1st and goal.

There were 3-4 bullshit pass interence calls on Iowa that, according to what I'm told, even the ABC announcers called the refs out on them. And then a bullshit no-call right in front of me (I was about 30-40 feet from the play and looking directly at it) where Andy Brodell (Iowa WR) had a half step on the DB on a 50 yard pass. The ball was thrown on the money, but the UM DB shoved Brodell past the ball. Ref was standing right in front of the play and COULD NOT have missed it. No call was made.

Iowa RB is run out of bounds, 5 seconds later a Michigan defender comes over and tackles the ball carrier. Ref had his back to the play and did not see it. No call made.

And there were other calls too, I just don't care to list them there were so many. I have the game on tape and plan on watching it tonight. I'm curious to hear what the announcers had to say.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:19 pm

http://www.football.com/cgi-bin/posters ... nfl1.shtml

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:36 pm

Damit, PSUfan, I just signed on to post that link! I just read it.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:46 pm

...even if the defender was trying to avoid contact?

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:56 pm

You're right, Frozen, it does sound like the correct call was made. However, the correct call was not made. Breaston actually shoved Brodell. That's where the contact was made. Brodell was only getting out of the way, nothing more. He gave Breaston a fair opportunity to catch the ball.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:34 pm

Jon,

Sorry for the delay in getting to you on this but this is my first day on the board since last Friday.

1. As BtH pointed out if a whistle doesn't sound then most plays are reviewable. A fumble play is always reviewable as long as the whistle doesn't sound.

2. Momentum applies inside the five on kick and INT plays. If a player takes possession inside of the 5 and outside of the goal line and then the ball becomes dead in the endzone, the ball is placed back at the spot where possession was gained.

Jon, don't compair NFL and NCAA rules. They are about as different as NFHS and NCAA rules. I would bet that if you were more familiar with the NCAA rules you wouldn't think the NCAA refs did such a poor job.

Finally on the kick catch interference call. The kick returner must be given an unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick. Interference can and is called even if there is no contact. Further the kick returner can initiate contact as long as he is moving to catch the kick and the foul will still be called on the covering team. Also, a muff is still part of a kick play until the ball touches the ground and as such the kick receiver must be given a clean path to the ball.

Hope that clears some things up for you. And again remember that just because you don't like or don't agree with or don't understand a rule doesn't mean the officials are doing a poor job.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:11 pm

NFL rules are better. I completely disagree with how the NCAA handles the challenges. Coaches should be challenging, not the booth. And you should not be able to challenge a fumble unless it was originally ruled a fumble.

The momentum rule on kickoffs is dumb. If a players momentum carries them from out of the endzone back into the end zone, how is that NOT a safety? Makes no sense. However, I saw the replay on this play, and Iowa's return man actually kicked the ball from the 2 back into the end zone. It was an unintentional kick, and therefore should be ruled a touchback, correct?

As for the muffed punt, I also saw the replay on this. There is NO way this was interference as defined by rule. Here's what happened. We punt against the wind, it's a high hanging kick and that gave Andy Brodell time to beat the ball down the field. Steve Breaston calls for a fair catch as Brodell is running toward him. Brodell gets within a few feet of Breaston but moves out of the way of him well before the ball arrives to give Breaston a fair opportunity to catch the ball. Breaston misjudges the ball, then runs up towards where Brodell is, grabs Brodell and moves him out of the way. Brodell then runs past Breaston and then about a second or two later, Breaston muffs the punt and it's recovered by Iowa.

How can a player run past the return man well before the ball arrives, have the return man run up and shove the gunner, the gunner then get back out of the way, and the return man then muff a punt because of nothing that the defender did??

There were other plays in this game I'd like you to take a look at.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:16 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:By rule, that is interference. Sorry that you have a hard time understanding that.

That's a stupid rule, though! The refs suck for enforcing it!

And there were many other calls the refs blew, about 257 of them. I don't have time to list them all. I recorded the radio broadcast. Will listen to see what they had to say about it and get back to you.

noj

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:41 pm

So then, when Iowa called for a fair catch on the previous possession and the Michigan gunner ran right in front of Jovon Johnson and did the exact same thing, why was nothing called?

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:44 pm

somebody get the man a tissue.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:46 pm

WolverineSteve wrote:somebody get the man a tissue.

These are better for what he needs.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:46 pm

Steve,

Admit it, you guys were only in the game at half because of the refs. We were kicking your ass up and down the field, but the refs decided to keep you in it. You know that. Now, did Iowa lose because of the refs? No. They lost because of the play calling and mistakes down the stretch. However, the game would have been over at halftime had the officials not fucked us over. And if you think that Breastons big run off that swing pass wasn't due to a hold by your WR on Ed Miles then you are blind. That play should have come back. Miles had his shoulder pads grabbed for 15 yards.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:49 pm

How can you say this?

TheJON wrote:Now, did Iowa lose because of the refs? No. They lost because of the play calling and mistakes down the stretch.

Followed directly by this?

However, the game would have been over at halftime had the officials not fucked us over.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:54 pm

I said that because despite the officiating, we still should have won the game. Had the refs done their job, the game is over at half. But even so, there is no excuse for losing that game. We had plenty of opportunities in the 2nd half to win the game and we made too many mistakes. That's why we lost. We didn't deserve to win anyways. Michigan did.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:43 pm

No contact....

But there was no contact on the Breaston play EXCEPT when Breaston ran up and shoved Brodell- who was NOT in his way of catching the ball.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:47 pm

Jon,

Do you know who makes the rules in the NCAA? It is the coaches. So if you don't like a rule then call Kirk and tell him how you feel. There are plenty of rules I as an official don't like, but no one asked my opinion, I just enforce them.

Really no one cares how you feel about momentum. But the big difference you seem to be missing is possession. Kicking the ball is not the same as possessing the ball. Kicking the ball adds new impetus. Also, the NFL has momentum rules too, so I don't know where you are going with that.

Second, it is up the the kicking team to stay out of the way of the kick returner no matter what. Just because the kick returner seems to have misjudged the flight of the ball doesn't relieve the kicking team from having tostaying out of his way. Also, if a guy makes a clean catch and there was no contact it is rare you will see a foul. Why you may ask? Because if he caught it cleanly and there was no contact was he really impeeded? Same as the defender who is being held by an offensive player yet still makes the tackle. Was he really being held if he was able to make the tackle? Possibly, but not enough to effect the play.

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:16 pm

Jon,
You do realize that you sound like a sniveling cunt don't you?
Seriously, bitching about officiating is so lame. There are calls in every game that go against either team. I could sit here a bitch about calls in Michigan losses, but what good does it do? I could point out missed/bad calls in Michigan wins, including the game where we rolled into your crib and bent you over and left the Pink Confines with your Big10 title hopes and 22 game home winning streak.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:17 pm

TheJON wrote:As for the muffed punt, I also saw the replay on this. There is NO way this was interference as defined by rule. Here's what happened...

...Breaston misjudges the ball, then runs up towards where Brodell is, grabs Brodell and moves him out of the way.

Noj, 5,000 years later still not understanding the rules.

Nolesy · Post by **Nolesy** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:49 pm

TheJON wrote:Steve,

Admit it, you guys were only in the game at half because of the refs. We were kicking your ass up and down the field, but the refs decided to keep you in it. You know that. Now, did Iowa lose because of the refs? No. They lost because of the play calling and mistakes down the stretch. However, the game would have been over at halftime had the officials not fucked us over. And if you think that Breastons big run off that swing pass wasn't due to a hold by your WR on Ed Miles then you are blind. That play should have come back. Miles had his shoulder pads grabbed for 15 yards.

The number one sign of a true bitch is blaming the refs for tier team loosing.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:25 pm

Not to open old wounds, but here is another example of Big 10 officiating incompetence:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... penn+state

Again, PSU lost that game because they couldn't run the ball and keep a lead in the second half. However, can anyone tell me how they called that a catch? There are two officials nearby, both with unimpeded views of Hartsock. It wasn't even close to a catch.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:37 pm

They didn't review that? I'm assuming OSU rant ot he line to snap it quickly after that play.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:47 pm

The fact of the matter is a lot of those calls that went against Iowa were judgement calls. Correct or not. Why is it that judgement calls always seem to go in favor of Michigan and almost never do they go in favor of the opposing team?

And all I want to know is how can Michigan throw a pass 30 feet beyond the intended receiver and they call PI on the Iowa DB? Then, how can Iowa throw a 50 yard pass to a WR that had his man beat, but the Michigan DB hooks said WR and shoves him, preventing him from making the catch and nothing be called?

How can you call Iowa for a hold on a screen pass but refuse to call Michigan for holding on a long TD, where the Michigan blocking WR grabbed ahold of the would be tackler for about 10-15 yards right in front of the official. Instead of a 50+ yard swing pass for a TD, it would have been a 5 yard play had Ed Miles not been held. He had no chance to make the play because the WR wouldn't let him get free.

And then explain to me how an Iowa DB can jump the route without making contact, have a ball thrown right to him, but have the Michigan WR grab ahold of him so he can't make the catch and refs not only refuse to call an obvious PI call on the OFFENSE, but they call one on the DEFENSE?

And I understand the rules completely. You guys aren't understanding the fact that on the muffed punt, not only did the Iowa gunner not make contact, but he also did not interfere with the return man. He simply moved away from Breaston long before the ball arrived. And once Breaston stepped up towards Brodell, Brodell immediately began getting back out of the way. However, Breaston then shoved him while Brodell was moving out of the way. Brodell never got in Breastons way. And Brodell had nothing at all to do with Breaston muffing the punt. He just flat out dropped the ball.

Watch the replay, even the ABC announcers said it was the wrong call and, from what I'm told, they explained the rule.

I watched part of the replay of the game and there were 3 times where the ABC announcers mentioned bad calls going against Iowa. And if you think ABC announcers are going to be biased towards Iowa against Michigan, you're a moron.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:50 pm

You were playing Ohio State. Of course that call is going against you. How do you think the Luckeyes won a national title? It sure as hell had nothing to do with being any good. Calls just seemed to go their way the entire year. Can't imagine why that is!

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:57 pm

I should have said this: that was the 2003 game. Replay wasn't started until 2004.

OSU had a loss at that point. JON, I think you refer to the 2002 season. I don't recall many questionable calls for the Buckeyes that led to wins. I do remember a lot of gutsy performances and close wins. I don't know how you imagine that they weren't "good".

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:48 pm

So does this mean the refs have to confer before the Ohio State-Michigan game to decide who gets all the judgement calls?

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:53 pm

No Jon, you do not understand the rules. Once the rules have been explained to you, you switch gears and start saying that all the judgement calls went against you.

Are you really trying to sell us this Big 11 conspiracy theory? I guess Michigan managed to pay off the 7 officials on the field, the replay official, the supervisor of officials and everyone in the Big 11 office. That would be no less than 30 people that are involved in this consipracy against you Jon.

You had better keep an eye on the sky too Jon for those black govenment helicopters with the noise canceling rotors.

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:13 pm

Jon and Bab's could get together and jerk each other off to "Media biased" conspiracy allegations.

YOU FUCKING LOST. Your team isn't worth a shit anyway. The loss probably meant the difference between the Sun Bowl and the Alamo Bowl. Both are in Texas, it should be a seemless transition.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:25 pm

I know we lost. I'm not blaming the refs for the loss. I'm blaming the playcalling and the mistakes. But that doesn't mean the refs shouldn't be called out for doing a poor job. And that's why Ferentz and our AD Bob Bowlsby have filed a complaint.

And our team isn't worth a shit? Neither is yours. We outplayed you in that game. We beat you 6 out of 10 and you know it. We had that game won and we made some costly mistakes. You needed us to give you the game in order to win. Anyone that watched the game knows Iowa and Michigan were about equal teams and Iowa was probably a little beter. Hate to tell you this, but the best team does not ALWAYS win.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:30 pm

TheJON wrote:And our team isn't worth a shit? Neither is yours. We outplayed you in that game. We beat you 6 out of 10 and you know it.

jon=mtard=the truth???