1st half MVPs

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:46 pm

AFC
1. Carson Palmer
1a. Edge James

NFC
1. Shaun Alexander
1a. Steve Smith
1b. Tiki Barber

Overall first-half league MVP
Carson Palmer

Thoughts...?

The Assassin · Post by **The Assassin** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:00 pm

AFC

Edgerrin James

NFC
Warrick Dunn

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:00 pm

AFC: LaDanian Tomlinson

NFC: Thomas Jones

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:10 pm

BSmack wrote:NFC: Thomas Jones

No way is he more valuable to the Bears than Urlacher or Briggs. The Bears are in first place because of their defense.

My top 5:
1. Carson Palmer
2. Shaun Alexander
3. Steve Smith
4. LaDainian Tomlinson
5. Jake Plummer

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:23 pm

Shoalzie wrote:No way is he more valuable to the Bears than Urlacher or Briggs. The Bears are in first place because of their defense.

The Bears offense would be completely disfunctional and incapable of even field goal drives were it not for Jones taking the heat off Orton. I know he won't win the award, because in football MVP awards go to the guys with the best stats. But he's the single biggest difference maker I've seen in the NFC.

Though if you want to argue Steve Smith I wouldn't argue too long.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:15 pm

AFC- Plummer

NFC- Dunn

Although I could argue very little if any against Alexander and Tomlinson.

Sorry, Pop, the Bengals are coming back to earth.

Joe in PB · Post by **Joe in PB** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:17 am

AFC

Edgerrin James

NFC

Shaun Alexander

Both of these guys have been nails, controlling the clock will always be integral for teams having championship aspirations.

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:33 am

AFC-Edge. The fucking Colts are 8-0 for fucks sake-and its mostly due to edge on offense.

NFC-Tiki Barber-Takes the heat off Manning, and has shed the "fumbler" label altogether this season.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:48 am

rozy wrote: Sorry, Pop, the Bengals are coming back to earth.

The topic is FIRST half MVP's, so I'm not sure what you're misguided prediction of a SECOND half failure has to do with anything.

Moving on from the obvious, I think too many people are looking at the Bengals during the horrid 90-02 era and just assuming that they're the AFC version of the Cardinals. Not true, they had a solid track record prior to that and now the difference is they actually have someone in charge that knows what they're doing. I guess 2 straight 8-8 seasons didn't convince anyone the ship was righted and moving in the right direction since there are still so many doubters after a 7-2 opening to this season, and Carson Palmer putting up 100+ QB ratings against everyone not wearing a Steelers jersey.

Not to mention if you don't see clear W's at home verus Baltimore and Cleveland plus a gimme road W against Detroit for a minimum of 10 wins then you prolly have no business posting in an NFL forum.

AFC-

Edge gets the slight nod over Palmer and Tomlinson

NFC-

Steve Smith, EOD

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:24 am

Raydah James wrote:AFC-Edge. The fucking Colts are 8-0 for fucks sake-and its mostly due to edge on offense.

NFC-Tiki Barber-Takes the heat off Manning, and has shed the "fumbler" label altogether this season.

Actually, the Colts are 8-0 mostly due to a vastly improved defense. It would be hard for Edge to get the MVP when he has Peyton Manning on the same offensive team. Sure Peyton is having nowhere near the season he had last year, but let's remember again, it's the most valuable player, which to me you have to equate that to who, if you removed them from their team, would cause said team to have the biggest fall off. Take Edge out of the Colts lineup, and you still have Peyton, probably with bigger numbers. Take LT out of the Bolts lineup and you have some mighty pissed off Charger fans calling for Brees' head on a platter.

I'd go with LT in the AFC and Alexander in the NFC

DallasFanatic · Post by **DallasFanatic** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:05 pm

AFC - Edge
NFC -Steve Smith

Overall - Drew Bled...........

Rushville · Post by **Rushville** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:21 pm

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:23 pm

Shine wrote:
rozy wrote: Sorry, Pop, the Bengals are coming back to earth.
The topic is FIRST half MVP's, so I'm not sure what you're misguided prediction of a SECOND half failure has to do with anything.

Not a dadgum thing, Captain Semantics.

Do I need to go all grammar troll on your ass? Are does not equal will be. Sinking in a touch?

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 2:30 pm

AFC

1. Palmer
2. The Edge
3. LT

NFC

1. Alexander
2. S. Smith

orcinus · Post by **orcinus** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:09 pm

AFC - James
NFC - Alexander

Raydah James · Post by **Raydah James** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:41 pm

DallasFanatic wrote:
Overall - Drew Bled...........

RACK

Seriously.

Where the fuck would the boys be without Drew at the helm? Everybody laughed and talked shit on your team for picking him up. Look now motherfuckers.

Sin,

FF Owner who Drafted drew in the last round and just traded him for Torry Holt. BODE.

Oh, and roofag-go fuck yourself you fat sloppy cunt. Edge is the best offensive player for the only undefeated team in football. Yes, the defense is a huge part of why they are 8-0, but anyone who has watched football this year knows that Edge has been the key to them on offense as well due to the scheming of DC's for the passing attack.

Edge has single handedly won them 2 grind-it-out games alone.

Get fukked, Charger pussy.

Dumbass · Post by **Dumbass** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:07 pm

mvscal wrote:I'd have to go with Steve Smith.

Without him Carolina has got nothing.

Although last year, it was Moose. So, who's to say it isn't actually this Delhomme fellow that really makes it happen.

Just playing Devil's Ad.

They had nothing without Davis and Foster for a bit last year as well.
Carolina can endure injuries.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:21 pm

Raydah James wrote:
DallasFanatic wrote:
Overall - Drew Bled...........
RACK

Seriously.

Where the fuck would the boys be without Drew at the helm? Everybody laughed and talked shit on your team for picking him up. Look now motherfuckers.

Sin,

FF Owner who Drafted drew in the last round and just traded him for Torry Holt. BODE.

Oh, and roofag-go fuck yourself you fat sloppy cunt. Edge is the best offensive player for the only undefeated team in football. Yes, the defense is a huge part of why they are 8-0, but anyone who has watched football this year knows that Edge has been the key to them on offense as well due to the scheming of DC's for the passing attack.

Edge has single handedly won them 2 grind-it-out games alone.

Get fukked, Charger pussy.

Slow up there, Lil Jimmy. You basically fucked your own argument with the "scheming of the DC's for the passing attack" take. You can't focus in on Edge when ol #18 is back there slingin balls, and so in that case, you've basically made the argument that Manning is the best offensive weapon on that team (if Edge were, the DC's would scheme against the run)

Granted, watching Edge run, he's clearly one of the better backs in the league (still), but to say he's the best offensive player on a team that includes Peyton Manning, well that just shows your ignorance.

Take Edge off the team, and Rhodes rushes for close to a hundy a game. Take Manning off and....well, shit, it's been so long, noone remembers what life before Peyton was like. Jim Harbagh? Remember him? Remember the success they had then?

If you want to pin #32 on your fridge as the league's offensive player of the year, then I won't argue that. His numbers support that campaign. If you want to talk MVP, then that's a whole 'nother story.

Lastly, sorry to disappoint, but I'm no Bolt fan. I claim no allegiance to any NFL team. With the Trojans under Pete Carroll, there's no need/room for a NFL team in OC/LA.

Rushville · Post by **Rushville** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:10 pm

Roofer wrote: Take Edge off the team, and Rhodes rushes for close to a hundy a game. Take Manning off and....well, shit, it's been so long, noone remembers what life before Peyton was like. Jim Harbagh? Remember him? Remember the success they had then?

Yes, Rhodes has that kind of rushing ability. We saw that when Edge went down with his knee three years ago. But as a die hard Coltfan I can tell you that Rhodes cannot take on a blitz the way Edge does. And Peyton can't be Peyton when he's on his back. Rhodes also does not have Edge's hands when it comes to catching out of the backfield or not fumbling. (See last year's Tedy Bruschi ripping the ball in the divisional playoff game.)

No, Harbaugh is not Peyton. But since you used the word "success," I'll just remind you that Jim Harbaugh took the Colts to exactly the same number of AFC Championship games and has the same record in those games as Peyton(0-1). And he was throwing to guys named Floyd Turner, Aaron Bailey and Shawn Dawkins. And he won playoff games in San Diego and in Kansas City with Marshall Faulk sitting on the sideline.

Yes, the best is yet to come for the Colts. But the successes at this point for Harbaugh and Peyton are the same.

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:11 pm

AFC - Jake Plummer

NFC - Steve Smith

Snooze Baton · Post by **Snooze Baton** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:07 pm

Roofer wrote:Take Edge off the team, and Rhodes rushes for close to a hundy a game. Take Manning off and....well, shit, it's been so long, noone remembers what life before Peyton was like. Jim Harbagh? Remember him? Remember the success they had then?

I remember the Colts being one jump ball, last play of the game in in the endzone away from the Super Bowl... what the fuck has Manning done except be the Patriots playoff fuck toy?

Rushville · Post by **Rushville** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:50 pm

mvscal wrote:
Rushville wrote: But the successes at this point for Harbaugh and Peyton are the same.
Tard

O.k. Define "success" in the NFL. Stats? Sure Peyton is miles ahead of many of the best to ever play in the stats department. But what does the Manning vs. Brady argument always come down to? The bottom line, rings. All of Manning's stats and all of his regular season wins haven't earned him any rings. And Roofer posted the question of what do we remember about the success of Harbaugh at quarterback for the Colts. And in the end, he went to one AFC title game. Peyton has been to one AFC title game. I said it in that post and I'll say it again here. The best is yet to come for Peyton and the Colts. But to THIS POINT, Peyton hasn't gotten any closer to a Super Bowl than Harbaugh did.

I remember you saying in the last Manning vs. Brady argument in here that "the best quarterback should shred any defense, right?" Well, Harbaugh has shreded just as many defenses in AFC Title games as Manning has.

To relate this back to the original argument, Peyton could not have done what he has done without Edge back there. Dominic Rhodes can run. But he can't do all of the things Edge does and a lot of them don't show up on a stats sheet. And if Edge goes down with an injury next week, the Colts will drop as a Super Bowl favorite for this year pretty quickly.

Roofer · Post by **Roofer** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:41 am

Rushville wrote:
mvscal wrote:
Rushville wrote: But the successes at this point for Harbaugh and Peyton are the same.
Tard
O.k. Define "success" in the NFL. Stats? Sure Peyton is miles ahead of many of the best to ever play in the stats department. But what does the Manning vs. Brady argument always come down to? The bottom line, rings. All of Manning's stats and all of his regular season wins haven't earned him any rings. And Roofer posted the question of what do we remember about the success of Harbaugh at quarterback for the Colts. And in the end, he went to one AFC title game. Peyton has been to one AFC title game. I said it in that post and I'll say it again here. The best is yet to come for Peyton and the Colts. But to THIS POINT, Peyton hasn't gotten any closer to a Super Bowl than Harbaugh did.

I remember you saying in the last Manning vs. Brady argument in here that "the best quarterback should shred any defense, right?" Well, Harbaugh has shreded just as many defenses in AFC Title games as Manning has.

To relate this back to the original argument, Peyton could not have done what he has done without Edge back there. Dominic Rhodes can run. But he can't do all of the things Edge does and a lot of them don't show up on a stats sheet. And if Edge goes down with an injury next week, the Colts will drop as a Super Bowl favorite for this year pretty quickly.

I understand the argument you make for Harbaugh, but let's not kid ourselves...Harbaugh is no Manning.

The original point I was trying to make is that the Colts D has more to do with them being 9-0 so far than anything else, Manning included.

Think of it this way. Before this year, the Colts D was challenged, if not downright poor, at protecting leads that Manning and the Colt offense was leading them to. As teams stick around in games, passing remains more of an aspect of the offenses. However, get out to a 21-0 lead and maintain that lead, then you look to manage the clock more, i.e. run it down. How do you do that? Hand the ball off. The fact that the Colts D is protecting leads much better this year (although I have to admit, they let the Texans hang around way too long yesterday) actually equates to more carries for Edge, thus more impressive numbers. Looking at it statistically, Edge is averaging about 4 more carries a game this year than last, everaging 4.6 a carry, just like last year. Where he has picked up is TDs, already matching so far this year his total for last year (how could he have scored alot last year when Peyton was on his way to almost 50 scores through the air?). Edge is basically having the same year this year as last, save for a dramatic increase in scoring.

Looking at the Colts D, they are 2nd in the league in points allowed, averaging 12.8 a game this year. Last year, they were in the lower half of the league (18th), giving up 21.9 a game. That's nearly a field goal and TD more than this year. Quite clearly, the biggest reason the Colts are 9-0 this year is their D.

Again, when we talk about Most Valuable Player, we have to talk about the guy who means most to his team, i.e. has the most value to his team in terms of their contribution to winning/losing. I still think the Colts are 7-2 or 8-1 (if not undefeated still) if they have Rhodes running the ball instead of Edge. Would I rather have Edge running the ball instead of Rhides? Clearly, for all the reasons mentioned previously (most notably, blocking and hanging on to the ball). Do I see the Colts as a bottom feeder without Edge running? Hardly.

Question is, which team would be in worse shape if their candidate was removed from the lineup: Palmer from Cincy, LT from SD or Edge from Indy? Tough to say between Palmer and LT, but clearly those two teams are far worse off without their MVP guy than the Colts.

Rushville · Post by **Rushville** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:23 pm

Roofer wrote:
I understand the argument you make for Harbaugh, but let's not kid ourselves...Harbaugh is no Manning.

The original point I was trying to make is that the Colts D has more to do with them being 9-0 so far than anything else, Manning included.

Again, when we talk about Most Valuable Player, we have to talk about the guy who means most to his team, i.e. has the most value to his team in terms of their contribution to winning/losing. I still think the Colts are 7-2 or 8-1 (if not undefeated still) if they have Rhodes running the ball instead of Edge. Would I rather have Edge running the ball instead of Rhides? Clearly, for all the reasons mentioned previously (most notably, blocking and hanging on to the ball). Do I see the Colts as a bottom feeder without Edge running? Hardly.

Question is, which team would be in worse shape if their candidate was removed from the lineup: Palmer from Cincy, LT from SD or Edge from Indy? Tough to say between Palmer and LT, but clearly those two teams are far worse off without their MVP guy than the Colts.

I never said Harbaugh was Manning, so I am not kidding myself.

Admittedly, I have not watched an entire San Diego game this year, nor have I watched an entire Cincinnati game this year so I have a hard time going strictly off stats in picking an MVP. So there is why I lean, in homer-type fashion, toward a Colt. But since they are 9-0, I think that's warranted. And within the Colts, the Manning vs. Edge for MVP argument is a little "chicken or the egg"-like. The argument could be made for Peyton because the entire league has taken on the Belichick defensive model against him and he has made the adjustments to beat 9 teams in a row doing that. But the majority of those adjustments include relying on Edge to carry the load more and he has done that with flying colors, as you point out, more scores which have made the Colts more effective in the red zone. So if I'm going to vote for a Colt, should it be Peyton for adjusting to the league's new trend in defending him? Or should I vote for Edge for consistently getting the job done when Peyton gets him the ball.

And this year's Colts offense hasn't been like last year's in that they jump out to big leads and then have to protect them. A lot of their early games have been grind outs and they have started out by running 13-17 play, 9 minute drives which use a lot of running plays. They're running the clock from the very beginning now.

The Texans game was a little flukish. Did you see the two botched punts by the Texans? Without those, Houston doesn't score more than 10 points.