No More Bitching

[Terry in Crapchester]

. . . about ND in the BCS. Based on yesterday's games, when the final BCS poll comes out later today, ND figures to be in the Top 6. That wraps up a BCS bid for ND, no discretion on the BCS' part.

Having said that, I'm sure I'll hear bitching nonetheless. Some of it will come from Oregon fan, who'll no doubt point out that a Pac-10 is in the unenviable position of finishing #5 for the second straight year when a BCS team without an automatic bid finishes #4 and a team that is not a member of a BCS conference finishes #6. That much is true, but I would point out that this is the system that the BCS members voted for, and while the odds of the same conference being in that position two years in a row is pretty remote, this was not an unforseeable event. Nor is this a rule designed solely to benefit ND. It applies to every 1-A team who is not a member of a BCS conference. Utah got into the BCS last year under precisely the same circumstances, and I didn't see nearly as much bitching, at least not on this board, about that as there has been about ND this year.

As for Schmick's infamous comment about teams who "earned" their way into the BCS, I should point out that one of those teams this year (Florida State) "earned" their way into the BCS under circumstances which would have rendered ND ineligible for a BCS bid. One other (West Virginia) may very well have a lower BCS ranking than ND did in two years in which they were passed over for the BCS despite being eligible for a BCS bid ('98 and '02), and a third (Georgia) was in that situation as well prior to the SEC championship game.

I'm also sure I'll hear the inevitable "ND should be in a conference so we don't have to deal with this" comments, but we all know realistically that ND isn't about to join a conference anytime soon, nor do they have any reason to do so.

So let the bitching begin nonetheless. :wink:

[Shawn Marion]

My only advice to teams is don't schedule patsies and 1AA teams and then cry when your rankings aren't high enough to get you in.

[T REX]

I am not a Pac-10 apologists by any means, BUT a one loss Oregon team whose only loss is to USC DESERVES it more than a TWO loss ND team.

Period. End of discussion. Bias? Hell, yes. So now we pray that tOSU rakes the field with the UN-deserving ND. Then they will think twice when it comes up again.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I am not a Pac-10 apologists by any means, BUT a one loss Oregon team whose only loss is to USC DESERVES it more than a TWO loss ND team.

Period. End of discussion. Bias? Hell, yes. So now we pray that tOSU rakes the field with the UN-deserving ND. Then they will think twice when it comes up again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, if ND were undefeated, you're the type who would argue that they're not really that good because they actually gave up a few scores, or didn't play a Top Ten team every single week. You've already proven that countless times.

And if ND is undeserving, what does that make Georgia, West Virginia and FSU? Need I remind you that ND is ranked higher than all of those teams.

Enjoy the Independence Bowl.

[Spinach Genie]

Notre Dame is in on cash. Deserving has nothing to do with it. No other team in America could lose a game and not fall in the polls. It's the system and everyone knows how it works. They'll have their opportunity to show how good they are.

[Van]

Oregon is getting screwed. There can be no dispute over this.

When you play in one of the major conferences and your only loss is to #1 in the nation you must in all fairness get the nod over two loss teams.

FSU's inclusion is obviously just a joke, as is WVA's, but in terms of the At Large bids Oregon earned at least one of 'em.

[Van]

Notre Dame is in on cash. Deserving has nothing to do with it. No other team in America could lose a game and not fall in the polls.

I think Fresno State also managed that trick.

[Shawn Marion]

When you play in one of the major conferences and your only loss is to #1 in the nation you must in all fairness get the nod over two loss teams.

What fairness?

Solution:

Don't lose

Don't play Montana

[T REX]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, if ND were undefeated, you're the type who would argue that they're not really that good because they actually gave up a few scores, or didn't play a Top Ten team every single week. You've already proven that countless times.

And if ND is undeserving, what does that make Georgia, West Virginia and FSU? Need I remind you that ND is ranked higher than all of those teams.

Enjoy the Independence Bowl.

I'm the type.......what a bitch statement since NONE of it true. We are having a conversation about a TWO LOSS ND team vs a ONE LOSS Oregon team. Dude, what the fuck are you talking.......let's keep it out in front of us and not deal with hypotheticals.

Back to reality, we are talking about the screw job. Sorry dude, no need to go postal.

UGA's schedule

DATE OPPONENT RESULT/TIME
09/03 #18 Boise St W 48-13
09/10 S Carolina W 17-15
09/17 La Monroe W 44-7
09/24 at Miss St W 23-10
10/08 at #8 Tennessee W 27-14
10/15 at Vanderbilt W 34-17
10/22 Arkansas W 23-20
10/29 at #16 Florida L 14-10
11/12 #15 Auburn L 31-30
11/19 Kentucky W 45-13
11/26 at #20 Ga Tech W 14-7
12/03 at #3 LSU W 34-14

ND's schedule

DATE OPPONENT RESULT/TIME
09/03 at #23 Pittsburgh W 42-21
09/10 at #3 Michigan W 17-10
09/17 Mich St L 44-41
09/24 at Washington W 36-17
10/01 at #22 Purdue W 49-28
10/15 #1 USC L 34-31
10/22 BYU W 49-23
11/05 Tennessee W 41-21
11/12 Navy W 42-21
11/19 Syracuse W 34-10
11/26 at Stanford W 38-31

Uhhhhh........I think that's SEVEN teams with losing records. Great job. You don't deserve to play in a BCS. Sorry. I agree with you on FSU. West Virgina's schedule is as weak as yours. Mirror brah.

[Van]

SM, apply those same yardsticks equally.

Notre Dame lost...twice.

Oregon played Montana. Notre Dame played Navy. Notre Dame's best wins came against a four loss Michigan team and a horrible Tennessee team, otherwise their other wins came against sub .500 teams.

"Don't lose" simply isn't going to happen very often. When it does, and if you play in one of the majors, you're likely playing for the national title.

So, you then have to judge teams by their losses. How many, and who?

Oregon trumps Notre Dame on losses.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Oregon is getting screwed. There can be no dispute over this.

When you play in one of the major conferences and your only loss is to #1 in the nation you must in all fairness get the nod over two loss teams.

FSU's inclusion is obviously just a joke, as is WVA's, but in terms of the At Large bids Oregon earned at least one of 'em.

You could have made that argument until both LSU and Va Tech lost. After that, you cannot.

Final regular season BCS standings come out later today. Last week the BCS standings looked like this:

1. USC
2. Texas
3. Penn State
4. LSU
5. Va Tech
6. tOSU
7. Oregon
8. ND

Barring something completely unforeseen, today's BCS standings will look like this:

1. USC
2. Texas
3. Penn State
4. tOSU
5. Oregon
6. ND

ND has nine wins and is Top Six, and therefore is guaranteed a BCS at-large bid. tOSU has nine wins, is Top Four, and the Top Three all have automatic BCS bids, and therefore, tOSU is guaranteed an at-large bid. No discretion at all for the BCS. They can't pass over either tOSU or ND, nor can they invite Oregon.

Oregon may be getting screwed, but they're getting screwed by one thing and one thing only: the BCS rules. And those are rules that they voted for, or at a minimum agreed to live with. Fwiw, I think the move to a fifth BCS bid was to take teams out of this predicament, as Oregon is the second team in as many years to find itself in this predicament. If next year's setup was in place, tOSU, Oregon and ND all would be assured of a BCS bid, and the controversy would be over the fourth at-large bid going to either Miami, Va Tech, LSU or Auburn.

And fwiw, Oregon this year didn't get screwed nearly as badly as Cal did last year. Like Oregon, Cal last year had only one loss, to the eventual national champion (and IIRC, by a much smaller margin than Oregon has this year). Cal actually went into the final week of the season ranked #4, won in the final week, on the road no less, and still got leapfrogged by an idle Texas team. Cal was also passed over in favor of a Utah team which was not ranked as highly as they were. Yet I didn't hear nearly as much bitching about that as I'm hearing about Oregon this year.

[Ken]

Having said that, I'm sure I'll hear bitching nonetheless.

Yes, you will. Sorry, crappy. Oregon deserves it moreso. One loss vs. two losses. Pretty cut and dry to me. Too bad w's and l's aren't the determiing factor for inclusion in the BCS.

[Ken]

When you play in one of the major conferences and your only loss is to #1 in the nation you must in all fairness get the nod over two loss teams.

What fairness?

Solution:

Don't lose

Don't play Montana

Unless you're ND, SOS has very, very little to do with obtaining a precious BCS at-large berth. In ND's case, because there are stipulations in place that make it easier for ND to gain inclusion based upon BCS ranking, sos does play a role.

[Shawn Marion]

SM, apply those same yardsticks equally.

Notre Dame lost...twice.

Oregon played Montana. Notre Dame played Navy. Notre Dame's best wins came against a four loss Michigan team and a horrible Tennessee team, otherwise their other wins came against sub .500 teams.

"Don't lose" simply isn't going to happen very often. When it does, and if you play in one of the majors, you're likely playing for the national title.

Don't lose. If you win your conference you are in the BCS, if you don't then you are at the BCS's mercy. If you don't like where you are ranked, don't cry about it. Either don't lose or schedule tougher teams.

So, you then have to judge teams by their losses. How many, and who?

No you don't, you judge the teams by the pre-determined and pre-agreed to criteria such as computer and human polls.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, if ND were undefeated, you're the type who would argue that they're not really that good because they actually gave up a few scores, or didn't play a Top Ten team every single week. You've already proven that countless times.

And if ND is undeserving, what does that make Georgia, West Virginia and FSU? Need I remind you that ND is ranked higher than all of those teams.

Enjoy the Independence Bowl.

I'm the type.......what a bitch statement since NONE of it true. We are having a conversation about a TWO LOSS ND team vs a ONE LOSS Oregon team. Dude, what the fuck are you talking.......let's keep it out in front of us and not deal with hypotheticals.

Back to reality, we are talking about the screw job. Sorry dude, no need to go postal.

UGA's schedule

DATE OPPONENT RESULT/TIME
09/03 #18 Boise St W 48-13
09/10 S Carolina W 17-15
09/17 La Monroe W 44-7
09/24 at Miss St W 23-10
10/08 at #8 Tennessee W 27-14
10/15 at Vanderbilt W 34-17
10/22 Arkansas W 23-20
10/29 at #16 Florida L 14-10
11/12 #15 Auburn L 31-30
11/19 Kentucky W 45-13
11/26 at #20 Ga Tech W 14-7
12/03 at #3 LSU W 34-14

ND's schedule

DATE OPPONENT RESULT/TIME
09/03 at #23 Pittsburgh W 42-21
09/10 at #3 Michigan W 17-10
09/17 Mich St L 44-41
09/24 at Washington W 36-17
10/01 at #22 Purdue W 49-28
10/15 #1 USC L 34-31
10/22 BYU W 49-23
11/05 Tennessee W 41-21
11/12 Navy W 42-21
11/19 Syracuse W 34-10
11/26 at Stanford W 38-31

Uhhhhh........I think that's SEVEN teams with losing records. Great job. You don't deserve to play in a BCS. Sorry. I agree with you on FSU. West Virgina's schedule is as weak as yours. Mirror brah.

Of course, what you forgot to mention is that four of those seven teams with losing records would've had winning records if they had beaten ND. And if you're comparing schedules, UGa has five teams with losing records, along with a 6-5 team from the Sun Belt conference. Three of their wins (South Carolina, Arkansas and Georgia Tech) came by a combined total of 12 points, none of those teams was exactly a worldbeater. Yeah, that's a real powerhouse there.

As to ND not belonging in the BCS, sorry, but by definition of the BCS rules, we do. BCS Top Six = guaranteed at-large bid for ND = bode for my argument. Sorry dude, that's the end of discussion there.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Having said that, I'm sure I'll hear bitching nonetheless.

Yes, you will. Sorry, crappy. Oregon deserves it moreso. One loss vs. two losses. Pretty cut and dry to me. Too bad w's and l's aren't the determiing factor for inclusion in the BCS.

If they were, then tOSU would be at risk as well. Lest you've forgotten, tOSU also has two losses.

ND finishes in the Top Six, ND is in. That much is a given. And it's the case this year.

And like I said, Oregon agreed to be bound by those rules.

[Van]

Nobody's arguing the rules, or who's getting in. They're immutable.

We're arguing what's right and what's not.

[Shawn Marion]

Having said that, I'm sure I'll hear bitching nonetheless.

Yes, you will. Sorry, crappy. Oregon deserves it moreso. One loss vs. two losses. Pretty cut and dry to me. Too bad w's and l's aren't the determiing factor for inclusion in the BCS.

1AA wins aren't

[PSUFAN]

OSU/ND will be a damn good football game. I'm glad the Ducks won't be anywhere near the BCS. If I wanted to watch an ass-raping, I'd hack into m2's hard drive.

[Ken]

Having said that, I'm sure I'll hear bitching nonetheless.

Yes, you will. Sorry, crappy. Oregon deserves it moreso. One loss vs. two losses. Pretty cut and dry to me. Too bad w's and l's aren't the determiing factor for inclusion in the BCS.

1AA wins aren't

Check my next comment on sos. Then get back to me.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Nobody's arguing the rules, or who's getting in. They're immutable.

We're arguing what's right and what's not.

Actually, my whole point in posting this topic is that the rules make it a moot issue.

And if that's the basis for your argument, why wasn't it made with Cal last year? Is m2 really that hated?

[Van]

It was made by plenty for Cal last year. Don't you recall all the people bashing Mack Brown for his media act?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Plenty of Mack-bashing on this board, but there was so much about his annual impression of the MSU lineman in Killian's pic during the Oklahoma game that I lost track of all the rest.

[T REX]

Of course, what you forgot to mention is that four of those seven teams with losing records would've had winning records if they had beaten ND.

WTF!!!!???????

Please tell me you just did not post this bullshit arguement on this board. That is borderline bitch material. If they WOULD HAVE beaten ND then they would have winning records???? Huh? Yeah, and if they had beaten other teams they would have a winning record. If, if, if.....dude, that was the lamest shit to come out of the ND household in a very long time. WTF????????

I could go so many places but I will just let that one fester by itself. Never heard the "if they had beaten us, they would have a winning record" arguement. Hopefully, I never hear that bullshit again. Take that one out of the arsenal please.

[T REX]

Also, five is less than seven. Also, when did we start added up combined score win totals. Yeah, they won but by only this many points?????? Dude, you are imploding right now trying to make a case for ND being there. The rules state you are, your record says you don't. Congrats on the back-door politics off-the-field that got you in, instead of your on-the-field play. Weis did an outstanding job this year. I just don't deem it BCS worthy.....actually...hell, it might be if there wasn't a team with LESS losses.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Also, when did we start added up combined score win totals.

MOV used to be a BCS component, or did you forget? Your boy Spurrier certainly never did, not back then. There has been a call to bring it back, at least on a modified basis, such as a 21-point win maxing out the MOV benefit.

Btw, Trixie, you calling anyone on this board a bitch is laughable. Nothing more needs to be said, and I'll leave it at that.

As for ND not belonging, the BCS takes eight teams, and ND will finish the year ranked #6. ND is no more the beneficiary of back-office politics in this situation than is Georgia, West Virginia or Florida State, and in fact, based on rankings, ND is less of a beneficiary than any of those schools. If ND doesn't belong, then tell me, who does?

[T REX]

Of course, what you forgot to mention is that four of those seven teams with losing records would've had winning records if they had beaten ND.

WTF!!!!???????

Please tell me you just did not post this bullshit arguement on this board. That is borderline bitch material. If they WOULD HAVE beaten ND then they would have winning records???? Huh? Yeah, and if they had beaten other teams they would have a winning record. If, if, if.....dude, that was the lamest shit to come out of the ND household in a very long time. WTF????????

I could go so many places but I will just let that one fester by itself. Never heard the "if they had beaten us, they would have a winning record" arguement. Hopefully, I never hear that bullshit again. Take that one out of the arsenal please.

No...no.....I want you to address this one........I have to hear how you came up with the brilliant......"if they had beaten us, they would have a winning record" arguement.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Actually, Trixie, that was brought up in an article I read about Weis. Weis didn't mention it, but the author of the article did.

And my point in bringing up the five losing teams plus La-Monroe on Georgia's schedule was to point out that Georgia's schedule certainly wasn't dramatically better than ND's. You were the one who first posted them as a point of comparison.

But we're getting a little far afield of the actual topic of conversation in this thread. Since you say ND doesn't belong, I'd be willing to throw down this (hypothetical) hungus: what say we get rid of all preferences, including those for conference champions, and the BCS invites the Top 8 teams according to its rankings? I realize we can't do this, but if we could, my team would still be in the BCS. Your entire conference might be shut out.

We all know the BCS doesn't take the 8 best teams, but if we're talking about ideals, it would. So in an ideal situation, ND still goes to the BCS. You can't argue that.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, if ND were undefeated, you're the type who would argue that they're not really that good because they actually gave up a few scores, or didn't play a Top Ten team every single week. You've already proven that countless times.

And if ND is undeserving, what does that make Georgia, West Virginia and FSU? Need I remind you that ND is ranked higher than all of those teams.

Enjoy the Independence Bowl.

I'm the type.......what a bitch statement since NONE of it true.

http://www.theoneboard.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=12001

You have ND at #10. 'Nuff said.

(Btw, you also have three two-loss teams -- tOSU, Georgia and Miami -- ahead of Oregon.)

[T REX]

I rank teams on how I feel they would match-up with those in front on a neutral field. I would take any of the teams ahead of ND to beat them.

We are going to watch tOSU beat ND.

UGA has a better schedule hands down. Please.....Auburn, Ga Tech, UF, LSU (Boise State and SOuth Carolina at 27th and 28th in also receiving votes) vs. Michigan and USC??????????

Normally, you guys put up a pretty good fight, but this is ridiculous. You had a great season. Weis is up for COY. But come on man, don't go overboard.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I rank teams on how I feel they would match-up with those in front on a neutral field. I would take any of the teams ahead of ND to beat them.

Like I said over there, Miami would beat ND on a neutral field? Miami couldn't beat Georgia Tech at home with the right to play for a BCS bid at stake. And LSU got blown out by Georgia, a team whose BCS ranking is below ND's, on national TV and with a BCS bid at stake.

In particular, I love our chances in a hypothetical matchup against Miami. If you want to beat ND, you have to outscore us (we gave up 78 points in our two losses, and we've only been held below 31 once all season). Miami's offense has shown a tendency to go south at the worst possible time this season.

We are going to watch tOSU beat ND.

Want a sig bet?

I like our chances in this game as well, for the aforementioned reason that you have to outscore us to win. tOSU's offense hasn't struck me as being extremely explosive the relatively few times I've seen it this year.

Normally, you guys put up a pretty good fight, but this is ridiculous. You had a great season. Weis is up for COY. But come on man, don't go overboard.

All I said was that we deserve the BCS. Under the rules, that's beyond dispute. But even if you threw out all the preferences and just took the Top 8 teams, according to BCS criteria, that'd still be the case.

[T REX]

LSU's QB also got his shoulder separated. Back-up comes in and throws a pick returned for a TD.

Regardless, ND has ONE quality win.

Slice it, dice it, wrap it up and call it what you want but facts are facts. Do you dispute this?

[Terry in Crapchester]

LSU's QB also got his shoulder separated. Back-up comes in and throws a pick returned for a TD.

They were losing before their starting QB got hurt.

Regardless, ND has ONE quality win.

Slice it, dice it, wrap it up and call it what you want but facts are facts. Do you dispute this?

Irrelevant. The point is that if the BCS were to operate as a pure meritocracy, ND is in, at least by the standards the BCS uses. Do you dispute this?

[Killian]

How many quality wins does Oregon? Also, why aren't Oregon fans bitching about their BCS ranking, when compared to PSU, if it's just about wins and losses?

[Vito Corleone]

My opinion is that the two most deserving teams of the at-large bids are Ohio State and Oregon. I'm at the point now where I think the BCS needs to do away with the conference affiliation and just let the bowls pick the top teams. This way we can get rid of the shit teams in the Big LEast.

I feel pretty safe in saying that if Texas would have had a year like two years ago not a single Big 12 school would have deserved to be in a BCS game. I also feel safe in saying not a single Big East team has deserved to be in a BCS game over the last two years. These things run in cycles and just like the Big 12 is down now they will be back up. But why reward a team for being mediocre
.

[WolverineSteve]

This from a ND hater...

I hate the "special exemption" that ND has that insures them a BCS bid. I think they should join a conference, TiC and I have had many a discussion on this....however, ND is better than Oregon. Even without a conference they played a tougher schedule top to bottom than Oregon. They have more national appeal (the reason the exemption exists) will draw better and bring better ratings. All things being equal...they aren't.

Sorry Ducks, win your bowl game and then start the bitching.

[T REX]

LSU's QB also got his shoulder separated. Back-up comes in and throws a pick returned for a TD.

They were losing before their starting QB got hurt.

Regardless, ND has ONE quality win.

Slice it, dice it, wrap it up and call it what you want but facts are facts. Do you dispute this?

Irrelevant. The point is that if the BCS were to operate as a pure meritocracy, ND is in, at least by the standards the BCS uses. Do you dispute this?

Irrelevant? How ND of you.......our discussion revovles around ND deserving a BCS bid, not what some smoke filled backdoor room created. I think it is poor on your part to go to the...these are rules...nanny-nanny boo-boo card. You sound like NU and OU fan times 10.

[Vito Corleone]

I'm not a ND hater, I a hater of teams that deserve to be in a bcs game getting shafted while undeserving teams get rewarded because of politics.

Neither Notre Dame or Oregon has proven they deserve to be in a BCS game but a one loss Oregon atlease has taken care of business in thier schedule. ND losing to MSU should put them a notch below Oregon.

But ND will get in because they played SC tough and thats their calling card this year.

[Laxplayer]

The schedules both of these teams played were set years ago. ND had no inclination that UM and UT would be less than stellar this year. Put the schedules up against each other and what looks better? Houston, Montana, Fresno State or teams like Michigan, Tennessee, Purdue, etc.....?
I go with ND's. Yes, I know some of those teams didn't pan out but is that ND's fault? Who in the fuck did oregon play? SC and that's it. The rest of the Crap-10 is just that. Crap.

[Terry in Crapchester]

LSU's QB also got his shoulder separated. Back-up comes in and throws a pick returned for a TD.

They were losing before their starting QB got hurt.

Regardless, ND has ONE quality win.

Slice it, dice it, wrap it up and call it what you want but facts are facts. Do you dispute this?

Irrelevant. The point is that if the BCS were to operate as a pure meritocracy, ND is in, at least by the standards the BCS uses. Do you dispute this?

Irrelevant? How ND of you.......our discussion revovles around ND deserving a BCS bid, not what some smoke filled backdoor room created. I think it is poor on your part to go to the...these are rules...nanny-nanny boo-boo card. You sound like NU and OU fan times 10.

Serious question: can you read? If so, did you read my post before you responded? 'Cause if you did, you would've seen that this take had nothing to do with "the rules are the rules."

You say you want the BCS to be a meritocracy. My response is: fine -- let's make it a true meritocracy. Do away with all preferences, not only the Top Six finish for ND, but all automatic bids as well. And take the Top 8 teams, as determined by BCS criteria (I put this qualifier in to distinguish from your "criteria", which obviously differ significantly from what the BCS uses, as evidenced by your ranking of ND at #10), for the BCS, regardless of conference affiliation.

ND gets in if this is the case. Do you dispute that?