No More Bitching

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:11 am

Tic wrote:you want to beat ND, you have to outscore us

Certainly can't argue that one! :-)

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:23 am

Van wrote:
Tic wrote:you want to beat ND, you have to outscore us
Certainly can't argue that one! :-)

Not meant as a Marcus Allen-esque statement. I think you know what I was trying to say.

Beating ND is similar to beating USC in at least one respect: you have to score a lot of points to win. It's not like the SEC, where the first team to score a touchdown wins. :wink:

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:30 am

TiC, yes, I obviously got what you meant. You just happened to trot out Susan's all time least favorite hoary sports cliche...

"Billy Joe, I gotta tell ya', whichever team scores more points today is going to win this game!"

First time Susan heard that one she was sitting there doing some work at her drafting table. She stopped, stood up, walked over to the remote, clicked off the tv, turned to me and said, "Okay, did I just hear what I think I just heard? You men are sooooo stupid!"

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:06 am

Terry in Crapchester wrote: Serious question: can you read? If so, did you read my post before you responded? 'Cause if you did, you would've seen that this take had nothing to do with "the rules are the rules."

You say you want the BCS to be a meritocracy. My response is: fine -- let's make it a true meritocracy. Do away with all preferences, not only the Top Six finish for ND, but all automatic bids as well. And take the Top 8 teams, as determined by BCS criteria (I put this qualifier in to distinguish from your "criteria", which obviously differ significantly from what the BCS uses, as evidenced by your ranking of ND at #10), for the BCS, regardless of conference affiliation.

ND gets in if this is the case. Do you dispute that?

ND is not the sixth best team in the country. You are puffed up from where???? Good question since the loss to USC you have played.......

BYU(6-5), Navy(7-4), Tenn(5-6), Syracuse(1-10), and Stanford(5-6)

Give me a fucking break. You scream, we almost beat USC....well, you almost lost to STanford. That's a fucking joke right? I think too many people got caught up in Weis-mania and overated you guys. Just calling it like I see it.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:11 am

T REX wrote:ND is not the sixth best team in the country.

That's your opinion. The BCS says differently.

Like I said, Miami couldn't even beat Georgia Tech at home with a bid in the ACC title game at stake. What makes you think they'd beat ND on a neutral field? Are you trying to say that Georgia Tech is better than ND?

And if you want to talk strength of schedule, every strength of schedule ranking I've seen has Miami's schedule (which included both Duke and Temple) ranked lower than ND's. Run all the "weak schedule" smack at us that you'd like, but you can't spin that one.

Sorry, Trixie, but your anti-ND bias is showing, big time.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:38 am

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
That's your opinion. The BCS says differently.

And the BCS is always right? You aren't, ARE YOU?

Like I said, Miami couldn't even beat Georgia Tech at home with a bid in the ACC title game at stake. What makes you think they'd beat ND on a neutral field? Are you trying to say that Georgia Tech is better than ND?

Are you saying you aren't better than MSU? Look at all teh teasm that clobbered them. If you're not then the what the fuck are you doing ranked so high?

And if you want to talk strength of schedule, every strength of schedule ranking I've seen has Miami's schedule (which included both Duke and Temple) ranked lower than ND's. Run all the "weak schedule" smack at us that you'd like, but you can't spin that one.

You seem to be clinging to Miami like a life jacket.....Auburn, LSU, etc are all better.......why is it so hard to admit that you might be overrated instead of carrying on.

Sorry, Trixie, but your anti-ND bias is showing, big time.

No bias....I came correct in the beginning of the year. You don't play anyone. Sorry. After tOSU rolls you, then we can talk.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:48 am

T REX wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:
That's your opinion. The BCS says differently.
And the BCS is always right? You aren't, ARE YOU?

Of course I'm not saying that. But the BCS has to have some sort of criteria for ranking the teams, don't they?

Sorry, but the criteria in use right now says ND is #6. If you don't like the particular result, I suppose you can change the criteria after the season ends, before next season. What you can't do is change the criteria in midstream.

Like I said, Miami couldn't even beat Georgia Tech at home with a bid in the ACC title game at stake. What makes you think they'd beat ND on a neutral field? Are you trying to say that Georgia Tech is better than ND?
Are you saying you aren't better than MSU? Look at all teh teasm that clobbered them. If you're not then the what the fuck are you doing ranked so high?

We're better than MSU overall, but we weren't better than them on that particular day. With the exception of the Va Tech game, I'm not sure you can say the same about Miami viz. Georgia Tech.

And if you want to talk strength of schedule, every strength of schedule ranking I've seen has Miami's schedule (which included both Duke and Temple) ranked lower than ND's. Run all the "weak schedule" smack at us that you'd like, but you can't spin that one.
You seem to be clinging to Miami like a life jacket.....Auburn, LSU, etc are all better.......why is it so hard to admit that you might be overrated instead of carrying on.

Merely bringing it up because it was such an obvious example -- and you haven't refuted any of the points I made. Auburn, LSU etc. are better than us -- PUH-LEEZE. Did you just out yourself as SEC Ballsucking Homer? That's what you sound like with that.

Sorry, Trixie, but your anti-ND bias is showing, big time.
No bias....I came correct in the beginning of the year. You don't play anyone. Sorry. After tOSU rolls you, then we can talk.

No anti-ND bias? And yet, despite your implicit criticism of BCS rankings, ND is the only team you cite as grossly overrated by the BCS. Coincidence? I don't think so.

We don't play anyone? Funny, but you're pimping plenty of other teams about whom that is also true, the "anyone but ND" syndrome is plainly at work here.

And tOSU won't roll us. If they win it'll be close.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:19 am

I ask you who you played....your typical response is...."well, team X only played blah, blah, blah" instead of addressing what I say.

What quality wins does ND have? Not Oregon, not miami, not whomever.......listening......

(insert some lame excuse that in 1998 these were good teams response)

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:49 am

Define quality win. When the BCS used this as a component in their rankings, quality wins were limited to wins against teams in the Top 10 of the BCS rankings (started out as Top 15, later tweaked to Top 10). Under this standard, ND doesn't have any, of course, but that's the case for most teams.

And that's just one criterion used. You're using it as the be-all, end-all.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:30 am

Btw, Trixie, since you're apparently so critical of the criteria the BCS uses, I computed the BCS standings if they still used the same formula they used prior to the last major revision (after the 2003 season). If they still used that formula, here's what I came up with:

USC: 3.86 points (1.0 poll average + 1.60 computer average + 0 losses + 2.36 SOS - 1.1 QW points)
Texas: 6.18 points (2.0 poll average + 1.20 computer average + 0 losses + 3.68 SOS - 0.7 QW points)
Penn State: 8.30 points (3.0 poll average + 3.00 computer average + 1 loss + 2.00 SOS - 0.7 QW points)
Ohio State: 11.64 points (4.0 poll average + 4.00 computer average + 2 losses + 1.64 SOS)
Oregon: 13.86 points (5.5 poll average + 5.40 computer average + 1 loss + 1.96 SOS)
Notre Dame: 20.02 points (5.5 poll average + 10.40 computer average + 2 losses + 2.12 SOS)
Georgia: 20.24 points (8.0 poll average + 7.20 computer average + 2 losses + 3.04 SOS)
Miami: 20.96 points (9.0 poll average + 7.40 computer average + 2 losses +2.76 SOS - 0.2 QW points)
Va Tech: 22.18 points (11.5 poll average + 6.00 computer average + 2 losses + 2.68 SOS)
Auburn: 22.48 points (7.0 poll average + 10.80 computer average + 2 losses + 3.08 SOS - 0.4 QW points)
West Virginia: 23.90 points (11.5 poll average + 8.00 computer average + 1 loss + 3.40 SOS)
LSU: 24.30 points (10.0 poll average + 10.20 computer average + 2 losses + 2.20 SOS - 0.1 QW points)
Texas Tech: 33.20 points (15.0 poll average + 13.80 computer average + 2 losses + 2.40 SOS)
TCU: 35.04 points (14.0 poll average + 15.40 computer average + 1 loss + 4.64 SOS)
Alabama: 35.16 points (13.0 poll average + 16.60 computer average + 2 losses + 3.56 SOS)
UCLA: 36.04 points (17.0 poll average + 15.20 computer average + 2 losses + 1.84 SOS)
Wisconsin: 39.56 points (20.0 poll average + 14.80 computer average + 3 losses + 1.76 SOS)
Michigan: 39.72 points (21.0 poll average + 14.60 computer average + 4 losses + 0.92 SOS - 0.8 QW points)
Florida: 43.74 points (17.5 poll average + 20.20 computer average + 4 losses + 2.44 SOS - 0.4 QW points)
Louisville: 43.88 points (16.0 poll average + 21.40 computer average + 2 losses + 4.48 SOS)
Boston College: 45.04 points (19.0 poll average + 20.80 computer average + 3 losses + 2.24 SOS)
Oklahoma: 50.72 points (26.0 poll average + 19.00 computer average + 4 losses + 1.72 SOS)
Georgia Tech: 51.56 points (24.0 poll average + 22.80 computer average + 4 losses + 1.16 SOS - 0.4 QW points)
Northwestern: 52.22 points (28.5 poll average + 19.20 computer average + 4 losses + 0.52 SOS)
Florida State: 53.66 points (22.0 poll average + 26.80 computer average + 4 losses + 1.36 SOS - 0.5 QW points)

So under the old system, ND still maintains its Top 6 ranking, although things tighten up a little for them (Florida drops slightly under the old system, btw). Admittedly, if you go back a little farther, to the point where wins against a Top 15 team counted as quality win points, Georgia gets quality win points for its win against LSU and moves ahead of ND as a result. But even under that scenario, under my BCS-as-pure-meritocracy hypothetical hungus, ND stays at #7 and therefore still gets a BCS bid.

Of course, this is not based on hypotheticals, or the way things used to be. The bottom line, Trixie is simply this: you say ND is not a Top Six team, I say they are. To back up my position, I have a system devised by people other than myself, in advance, and which all of the BCS schools agreed to use. You have nothing other than your own opinion, and a few points of minutiae that you constantly harp on to the exclusion of all else.

You lose. Thanks for playing.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:45 pm

The whole point is you are overrated to begin with. What do I lose? Nothing.....no problem.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:51 pm

T REX wrote:The whole point is you are overrated to begin with. What do I lose? Nothing.....no problem.

We're ranked higher in the human polls than in the computers, and for my money, the human polls have been more reliable, at least this year.

The human polls have always ranked USC #1 and Texas #2, but Texas has had the higher computer ranking most of the season.

Perhaps even more egregiously, Michigan, with four losses, is still ranked in the Top Ten on at least one computer system (Sagarin).

So how are we overrated, in light of that?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:00 pm

T REX wrote:The whole point is you are overrated to begin with. What do I lose? Nothing.....no problem.

Is LSU overrated also? Granted, the only team that ND beat was a 7-4 Michigan team, and they lost to MSU, but LSU also lost to Tennessee and Georgia. Just curious as to your thoughts if they were overrated as well.

Also, ND and OSU share the same quality win.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:19 pm

ND deserved it, tOSU deserved it, Oregon deserved it. One team was going to get screwed and Oregon was that team. Its tough, life sucks, but what a great freaking game the Fiesta is going to be. As a casual observer I would much rather see this game than Oregon vs the one of the other two. Two great coaches and 2 very good QBS going head to head. Both finished in the Top 6 of the BCS, so there is no need to say either is un-deserving. Wanna make the Big Bowls, win your conference.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:40 pm

Two years in a row we have a Pac 10 team ranked #5 in the BCS that still doesn't get into the BCS. Man...

Then again, there was Oregon being ranked #2 in both polls in 2001 only to be bypassed for the championship game in favor of an undeserving Nebraska...

Automatic conference bids are the devil.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:20 pm

Killian wrote:
T REX wrote:The whole point is you are overrated to begin with. What do I lose? Nothing.....no problem.
Is LSU overrated also? Granted, the only team that ND beat was a 7-4 Michigan team, and they lost to MSU, but LSU also lost to Tennessee and Georgia. Just curious as to your thoughts if they were overrated as well.

Also, ND and OSU share the same quality win.

You say...granted.....i am not saying ND sucks by any means. weis has done an anwesome job, but let's be real.....you haven't beaten anyone besides michigan. your schedule has SEVEN teams with losing records. No offense, but if it was UF, you guys would be all over it....

Also, human polls? ND is teh sweetheart of college football....that is the point. You are overrated.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:50 pm

Is Oregon the #5 team in the country?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:50 pm

T REX wrote:You say...granted.....i am not saying ND sucks by any means. weis has done an anwesome job, but let's be real.....you haven't beaten anyone besides michigan. your schedule has SEVEN teams with losing records. No offense, but if it was UF, you guys would be all over it....

Also, human polls? ND is teh sweetheart of college football....that is the point. You are overrated.

Explain how ND is overrated. Because of their one loss to MSU? You want to say their schedule sucked, fine. By the end of the season, it did, due in large part to the number of first year coaches ND faced and the fact that the three teams people expected to be very good, took a fucking free fall from the polls.

But everyone of their victories was a blow out, save Michigan and Stanford. Yes, Stanford sucks, but every team besides Texas struggled with at least one team that they should have blown out.

If it was UF, I wouldn't be all over shit because I wouldn't care. You play the teams that are lined up before you. If those teams end up to be well below their typical average it's not your fault.

So back to my question, is LSU overrated?

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:15 am

LSU? In a year when half of Louisiana was destroyed?

Uhhhhh....yeah....sure.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:44 am

Killian wrote:every team besides Texas struggled with at least one team that they should have blown out.

Texas struggled against both Okie State and A&M.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:07 pm

T REX wrote:LSU? In a year when half of Louisiana was destroyed?

Uhhhhh....yeah....sure.

Why do you refuse to answer the question? Is LSU overrated?

Also, good point Van. I know they pulled away from Okie St., but A&M slipped my mind.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:30 pm

T REX wrote:LSU? In a year when half of Louisiana was destroyed?

Uhhhhh....yeah....sure.

Its not like the Hurricane came in the 4th Quarter of a game and broke up a Russell pass.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:07 pm

Conferences should only get automatic bids if their conference champion is in the top 10.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:22 pm

^^^^

Dont agree.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:31 pm

Cicero, you think a conference winner should get an automatic invite even if it's last season's Pitt team or this year's FSU team?

No, they shouldn't. No way Oregon should get bumped in favor of a two loss ND team much less any four loss team.

JayDuck · Post by **JayDuck** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:22 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Is Oregon the #5 team in the country?

Is PSU the 3rd? Is tOSU the 4th? is ND the 6th?

Nobody can say for sure, of course, but I'd would certainly argue that Oregon is at least the 5th best, this season.

Every team in the nation has flaws, and after USC and Texas, every team has blemishes on their record.

Oregon has a lot less excuses to make to justify their position than most other teams.

Terry in Crapchester · Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:22 pm

Killian wrote:If it was UF, I wouldn't be all over shit because I wouldn't care.

The difference between you and Trixie is that Trixie has two favorite teams:

1. Florida; and
2. Whoever's playing Notre Dame (even if it's Florida State)

Now, I'll be the first to admit that it's fun to have a team you love to hate. I was like that about Miami during the '80's. Lax is like that today with USC. So it's not always a sign of bitchdom. But usually, if you have a team you love to hate, they're a rival of the team you root for. That's not the case for Trixie, so he takes it to new levels.

Terry in Crapchester · Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:35 am

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Btw, Trixie, since you're apparently so critical of the criteria the BCS uses, I computed the BCS standings if they still used the same formula they used prior to the last major revision (after the 2003 season). If they still used that formula, here's what I came up with:

USC: 3.86 points (1.0 poll average + 1.60 computer average + 0 losses + 2.36 SOS - 1.1 QW points)

Texas: 6.18 points (2.0 poll average + 1.20 computer average + 0 losses + 3.68 SOS - 0.7 QW points)

Penn State: 8.30 points (3.0 poll average + 3.00 computer average + 1 loss + 2.00 SOS - 0.7 QW points)

Ohio State: 11.64 points (4.0 poll average + 4.00 computer average + 2 losses + 1.64 SOS)

Oregon: 13.86 points (5.5 poll average + 5.40 computer average + 1 loss + 1.96 SOS)

Notre Dame: 20.02 points (5.5 poll average + 10.40 computer average + 2 losses + 2.12 SOS)

Georgia: 20.24 points (8.0 poll average + 7.20 computer average + 2 losses + 3.04 SOS)

Miami: 20.96 points (9.0 poll average + 7.40 computer average + 2 losses +2.76 SOS - 0.2 QW points)

Va Tech: 22.18 points (11.5 poll average + 6.00 computer average + 2 losses + 2.68 SOS)

Auburn: 22.48 points (7.0 poll average + 10.80 computer average + 2 losses + 3.08 SOS - 0.4 QW points)

West Virginia: 23.90 points (11.5 poll average + 8.00 computer average + 1 loss + 3.40 SOS)

LSU: 24.30 points (10.0 poll average + 10.20 computer average + 2 losses + 2.20 SOS - 0.1 QW points)

Texas Tech: 33.20 points (15.0 poll average + 13.80 computer average + 2 losses + 2.40 SOS)

TCU: 35.04 points (14.0 poll average + 15.40 computer average + 1 loss + 4.64 SOS)

Alabama: 35.16 points (13.0 poll average + 16.60 computer average + 2 losses + 3.56 SOS)

UCLA: 36.04 points (17.0 poll average + 15.20 computer average + 2 losses + 1.84 SOS)

Wisconsin: 39.56 points (20.0 poll average + 14.80 computer average + 3 losses + 1.76 SOS)

Michigan: 39.72 points (21.0 poll average + 14.60 computer average + 4 losses + 0.92 SOS - 0.8 QW points)

Florida: 43.74 points (17.5 poll average + 20.20 computer average + 4 losses + 2.44 SOS - 0.4 QW points)

Louisville: 43.88 points (16.0 poll average + 21.40 computer average + 2 losses + 4.48 SOS)

Boston College: 45.04 points (19.0 poll average + 20.80 computer average + 3 losses + 2.24 SOS)

Oklahoma: 50.72 points (26.0 poll average + 19.00 computer average + 4 losses + 1.72 SOS)

Georgia Tech: 51.56 points (24.0 poll average + 22.80 computer average + 4 losses + 1.16 SOS - 0.4 QW points)

Northwestern: 52.22 points (28.5 poll average + 19.20 computer average + 4 losses + 0.52 SOS)

Florida State: 53.66 points (22.0 poll average + 26.80 computer average + 4 losses + 1.36 SOS - 0.5 QW points)
So under the old system, ND still maintains its Top 6 ranking, although things tighten up a little for them (Florida drops slightly under the old system, btw). Admittedly, if you go back a little farther, to the point where wins against a Top 15 team counted as quality win points, Georgia gets quality win points for its win against LSU and moves ahead of ND as a result. But even under that scenario, under my BCS-as-pure-meritocracy hypothetical hungus, ND stays at #7 and therefore still gets a BCS bid.

Of course, this is not based on hypotheticals, or the way things used to be. The bottom line, Trixie is simply this: you say ND is not a Top Six team, I say they are. To back up my position, I have a system devised by people other than myself, in advance, and which all of the BCS schools agreed to use. You have nothing other than your own opinion, and a few points of minutiae that you constantly harp on to the exclusion of all else.

You lose. Thanks for playing.

My bad, Florida actually would have 42.74 points. I had a brainfart and wrote down 4 losses, when they actually have 3. Doesn't affect what their ranking would be, though.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:29 pm

Killian wrote: Why do you refuse to answer the question? Is LSU overrated?

Still waiting.....

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:57 pm

I answered it.......going 9-2 after their state was destroyed, played a HOME game away.......this is a stupid question.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:32 pm

T REX wrote:I answered it.......going 9-2 after their state was destroyed, played a HOME game away.......this is a stupid question.

No it's not. The question is very simple. Is LSU an overrated football team?

So your answer is no, because of a natural disaster? That disaster forced them to play one home game on the road, and they won. Was it also a factor in their loss to Tennesse? Or their close game against Arkansas? Or their loss in the SEC championship game?

So again, I'll ask you. Is LSU an overrated football team?

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:41 am

Hell...NO

a natural disaster?? You should read or watch some of stuff that went on and is still going on...

Those players had many displaced family and loss.

How you could downplay such an event is beyond me. You act as if nothing happened. They still played their guts out all year. UGA is a great football team.

All things considered.....9-2 is a great season. Overrated? That's ND.

PS After the tOSU loss ND will be 1-2 vs ranked teams on the year. Hopefully, the final ranking will reflect this......like 12-15, where they should be.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:51 pm

T REX wrote:Hell...NO

a natural disaster?? You should read or watch some of stuff that went on and is still going on...

Those players had many displaced family and loss.

How you could downplay such an event is beyond me. You act as if nothing happened. They still played their guts out all year. UGA is a great football team.

All things considered.....9-2 is a great season. Overrated? That's ND.

PS After the tOSU loss ND will be 1-2 vs ranked teams on the year. Hopefully, the final ranking will reflect this......like 12-15, where they should be.

I read and watched what happened down in Louisana. It was very sad. Yes, they had some obstacles to overcome, every team does. And theres are likely greater that 99.9% of other teams.

So, all things considered for them, 9-2 is a great season, even though they have national championship level talent and were predicted to be in the running at the start of the season? Yet a 9-2 ND team that many predicted to start the season 0-6 or 1-5, has serious depth issues because of the previous coach, is overrated?

And I want you to explain to me how ND is overrated. You can't, because the logic you will use will fit LSU's team to a tee. Lost to a shitty, sub-.500, unranked team? Check. Lost another game to a highly ranked team? Check. Struggled in their last regular season game against a team they should have crushed? Check.

You can't logically argue that ND is overrated and say in the same breath that LSU is not. But you can if you use a hurricane as a crutch.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:11 pm

Are you ready, LaFluer? Ready for the..........WHOOO...........Hurricane!!!!