Believers, a question from an agnostic...

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe? Is there any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, in which you might say "Wow, I guess I was wrong this whole time"?

For example, let's say a being appeared on earth tomorrow and said "Hey, sorry about all the confusion, but I'm the one who got this whole thing rolling billions of years ago. Just wanted to clear things up so you all can stop killing each other over made-up gods."

Let's say this being allows himself to be tested in every conceivable way. It performs miracles, reads minds, etc. It basically says, "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to prove to mankind that I'm the real deal." And every single time someone comes up with a test, it passes it. Even the vast majority of religious leaders in the world ultimately come around and say, "Yeah, it looks like we were wrong. This being is the real deal."

Would you renounce your current beliefs and admit you were wrong, or would you just chalk it up as an elaborately staged trick by Satan to tempt you into not believing?

[Diogenes]

Option B.

To start with you would need a credible explaination of how life on this planet began without outside influences. And then a reasonable explaination for the various OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, including Daniel predicting exactly when he would be born. And then what happened to his body? Why would all of those who claim to have witnessed him walking around after his death gone to their deaths for their testimony if it wasn't true? Maybe explain how the Jewish people could survive everything they have as a nation only to come back in their aincient homeland- and kick the shit out of everyone who tried to prevent them against incredible odds if there wasn't something special going on.





That would be a start.

[RadioFan]

Mikeytheangry,

Just look at history.

All the great battles, all the great decisions, inspired by a higher power.


Despite mvscal's version of "When we die, that's it," there is something more, no doubt about it. To deny God is to deny history.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Option B.

To start with you would need a credible explaination of how life on this planet began without outside influences.

No can do. That's why I'm not an atheist. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility though.

And then a reasonable explaination for the various OT prophecies that Jesus fulfilled, including Daniel predicting exactly when he would be born.

This one's a little easier to explain. The people who wrote the NT had read the OT. If you're going to write a story about a guy purported to be the savior of humanity, it'd be in your best interests to have him fulfill the requisite prophesies.

And then what happened to his body?

I don't know. But it's not the first time someone's body has disappeared. Nobody is hailing Jimmy Hoffa as the Messiah, after all.

Why would all of those who claim to have witnessed him walking around after his death gone to their deaths for their testimony if it wasn't true?

Are there any non-Biblical accounts of this? Justifying your belief by simply pointing to the book that is the foundation of your belief is kind of circular logic, don't you think?

Maybe explain how the Jewish people could survive everything they have as a nation only to come back in their aincient homeland- and kick the shit out of everyone who tried to prevent them against incredible odds if there wasn't something special going on.

Not really sure what you're getting at here. Are you implying that God has intervened on behalf of the Jewish people throughout history? If so, can you give me some specific examples?

That would be a start.

So even if I, or maybe the theoretical being I outlined in my first post, could satisfactorily answer all of these questions for you, that'd only be a start?

I ask again, what would it take to convince you 100%? Because I could tell you pretty specifically what it would take to convince me that the Christian god is the one true god.

[RadioFan]

I ask again, what would it take to convince you 100%? Because I could tell you pretty specifically what it would take to convince me that the Christian god is the one true god.

It's not necessarily and either/or proposition ... depending on what you are saying. Your initial post was about the existence of God. Now you're referencing the "Christian god," in your words.

[Diogenes]

Is that you, Dr.D.? I'm not going for the breaking every sentance into a seperate quote thing, that's still annoying.

'Not outside the realm of possibility' covers a lot. Especially when you are dealing with the reversal of entropy, the spontaneous appearance of something as complex as DNA, the almost miraculous harmoniousness of our planet with the cosmological constants nessecary for life, and all of that. As far as what was 'in the best interests' of the Gospel writers, unless what they were writing was true, abandoning Christianity and avoiding death by torture would probably top the list. Jimmy Hoffa, didn't A)predict his execution. B)predict his resurection and C) get executed in the exact manner predicted (and prophesied in the OT, BTW). It would have been in the Romans interest to guard the tomb, just as it is reported they did in the Bible. And no bunch of fisherman were going to overpower Roman Centurions in order to steal his body. In order to lie about it. In order to get tortured to death. To convince me even partially, let alone 100% it would take a logical, reasonable argument that made more sense than all of the evidences of the Truth of the Gospel.

What would it take to convince you?

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

I ask again, what would it take to convince you 100%? Because I could tell you pretty specifically what it would take to convince me that the Christian god is the one true god.

It's not necessarily and either/or proposition ... depending on what you are saying. Your initial post was about the existence of God. Now you're referencing the "Christian god," in your words.

Well, my original question was

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe?

I intentionally worded it that way because I hoped to get a varied response. Dio was the first person to reply, so that's why I used the "Christian god" as an example in my reply to him.

I guess believing anything 100% is a lot to ask when you're dealing with the supernatural. I'm sure even the staunchest Christian has had a sliver of doubt cross his mind at some point, if only for a split-second. But what would it take to convince you 99.99% that what you believe is wrong?

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Is that you, Dr.D.? I'm not going for the breaking every sentance into a seperate quote thing, that's still annoying.

'Not outside the realm of possibility' covers a lot. Especially when you are dealing with the reversal of entropy, the spontaneous appearance of something as complex as DNA, the almost miraculous harmoniousness of our planet with the cosmological constants nessecary for life, and all of that. As far as what was 'in the best interests' of the Gospel writers, unless what they were writing was true, abandoning Christianity and avoiding death by torture would probably top the list. Jimmy Hoffa, didn't A)predict his execution. B)predict his resurection and C) get executed in the exact manner predicted (and prophesied in the OT, BTW). It would have been in the Romans interest to guard the tomb, just as it is reported they did in the Bible. And no bunch of fisherman were going to overpower Roman Centurions in order to steal his body. In order to lie about it. In order to get tortured to death. To convince me even partially, let alone 100% it would take a logical, reasonable argument that made more sense than all of the evidences of the Truth of the Gospel.

What would it take to convince you?

First of all, I apologize. I even kind of realized the lameness of breaking up the quote while I was doing it, but I wanted to address all your points, so I went ahead with it. It won't happen again.

As far as your other points, you're doing the whole circular logic thing again. Is it possible to set the Bible aside for a minute and talk about this topic in real-world terms?

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

As far as what would it take for me to believe, I guess Jesus appearing before me and saying something along the lines of "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" would be a good start.

;)

[Diogenes]

There's no circular logic involved. I'm not saying that the Bible is true because it says, so, or even because the authors went to their deaths saying so. Just that you have yet to give a credible reason that they would die for what you are implying they knew to be a lie. Or do you not believe the Romans were offing Christians all over the place in the 1st century AD?

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions and translations on it's way to becoming the book that sits in your pew every Sunday.

[Diogenes]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions...

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

[SunCoastSooner]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions...

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

You're wrong Dio but I think you know that. The bible is one of the most revised works in human history. Try reading a translation, a propper translation, of the Hebrew scriptures and then get back to us about wheather the bible has been revised.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions...

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

[Diogenes]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions...

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

:roll:

[PSUFAN]

I'm just not expecting any of what folks have dreamed up and placed in the Bible, Koran, or Book of Mor(m)on ever to come true. I feel there is layer upon layer of unknowable complexity to the order of things - and for some jackass in a Crystal Cathedral to try to tell me he has it figured out...well, sure, I have it figured out that he's trying to fleece me.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

Let's say this being allows himself to be tested in every conceivable way. It performs miracles, reads minds, etc. It basically says, "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to prove to mankind that I'm the real deal." And every single time someone comes up with a test, it passes it.

The problem I have with this scenario is that I can conceive of a sufficiently advanced species from another planet (by extrapolating human abilities) being able to do this highly sophisticated stuff and yet not be God.

As Arthur C. Clarke pointed out, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguisable from magic. Transporters, telepathy, telekinesis, matter transformation....there's nothing I can picture your hypothetical being doing that would blow my doors off - I'm too jaded by "Star Trek" et al.

Even the vast majority of religious leaders in the world ultimately come around and say, "Yeah, it looks like we were wrong. This being is the real deal."

Maybe I'm a cynical guy, but I seriously doubt that religious institutions would say or do anything that would end their temporal power and financial gravy train.

Would you renounce your current beliefs and admit you were wrong,

Never. That's why it's called "faith."

Despite my educational background and career(s), I've never felt a need to attempt to explain away Christ's miracles, promises, etc. with science or work really hard to reconcile the two sides of my life (religion and science).

or would you just chalk it up as an elaborately staged trick by Satan to tempt you into not believing?

Well, the truth is that Jesus is quoted as warning his believers that folks would crop up, do wondrous things, and falsely claim to be Him.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

[Diogenes]

Well here's another poser for you guys then.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I'm willing to allow that there might be a god that has two of those three characteristics, but a god with all three would have never created this world, knowing how it would end up.

I feel there is layer upon layer of unknowable complexity to the order of things - and for some jackass in a Message Board to try to tell me he has it figured out...well, sure, I have it figured out that he's trying to fleece me.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Just as I thought.

[tough love]

Can't blame God for the evil doings of man, and no one knows how this world will end.

The Urantian Take:
This planet is just going through a spiritual rough patch because of the lucifer rebellion.
Not only has this earth been deprived the spiritual services of The Planetary Prince and all that that would entail, but by also losing out on our very own Adam and Eve, we do not have their divinely expanding 'Garden of Eden' to behold in all of it's Heavenly splender and glory.
This has left the people of earth without the same spiritual inspiration and guidance which excels the development of simular will creature planets.

This plight has simple slowed down our spiritual evolution, thusly leaving man to stew in the godless crapulated state of which he now reside's within.

If the people of this earth would of had the same Adamic benefits which other simular planet creatures now have, man would of been equally blessed to witness the living glory of the creator on a daily basis, which in turn would of been of great assistance in our moral growth within the Paradise Plan.

But Alas; I am but stuck in the stew with you. :wink:

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p051.htm

THE PLANETARY ADAMS

DURING the dispensation of a Planetary Prince, primitive man reaches the limit of natural evolutionary development, and this biologic attainment signals the System Sovereign to dispatch to such a world the second order of sonship, the biologic uplifters. These Sons, for there are two of them -- the Material Son and Daughter -- are usually known on a planet as Adam and Eve. The original Material Son of Satania is Adam, and those who go to the system worlds as biologic uplifters always carry the name of this first and original Son of their unique order.

These Sons are the material gift of the Creator Son to the inhabited worlds. Together with the Planetary Prince, they remain on their planet of assignment throughout the evolutionary course of such a sphere. Such an adventure on a world having a Planetary Prince is not much of a hazard, but on an apostate planet, a realm without a spiritual ruler and deprived of interplanetary communication, such a mission is fraught with grave danger.

Although you cannot hope to know all about the work of these Sons on all the worlds of Satania and other systems, other papers depict more fully the life and experiences of the interesting pair, Adam and Eve, who came from the corps of the biologic uplifters of Jerusem to upstep the Urantia races. While there was a miscarriage of the ideal plans for improving your native races, still, Adam's mission was not in vain; Urantia has profited immeasurably from the gift of Adam and Eve, and among their fellows and in the councils on high their work is not reckoned as a total loss.

[PSUFAN]

Rack Mike. You ask a few reasonable questions, and you get FTFY and spin. Is that what this forum is supposed to be about?

[Tom In VA]

Well, my original question was

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe?

Death, I suppose. Then I would no longer "believe", either way. I'd either know or just be dead.

How do you reconcile an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving god with the fucked up shit that happens in the world every day?

I don't. It's not my job to reconcile it, it's God's. He can, and does, a far better job at it than I do. It is what it is. Most importantly, my "judgement" of God really doesn't amount to shit. Neither does yours.

[rozy]

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe? Is there any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, in which you might say "Wow, I guess I was wrong this whole time"?

For example, let's say a being appeared on earth tomorrow and said "Hey, sorry about all the confusion, but I'm the one who got this whole thing rolling billions of years ago. Just wanted to clear things up so you all can stop killing each other over made-up gods."

Let's say this being allows himself to be tested in every conceivable way. It performs miracles, reads minds, etc. It basically says, "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to prove to mankind that I'm the real deal." And every single time someone comes up with a test, it passes it. Even the vast majority of religious leaders in the world ultimately come around and say, "Yeah, it looks like we were wrong. This being is the real deal."

Would you renounce your current beliefs and admit you were wrong, or would you just chalk it up as an elaborately staged trick by Satan to tempt you into not believing?

Dio, how did you miss this? The above...........is going to happen.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

Can't blame God for the evil doings of man, and no one knows how this world will end.

Why not? God [allegedly] created man, and in his own image even. Being all-knowing, God knew that man would fall into sin and commit countless acts of evil. Yet God went ahead and created man anyway. I can't really think of anyone more worthy of blame.

In order for God to be blameless, he'd have to claim to have not known how man was going to turn out, which kind of throws a wrench into the whole omniscience rap.

As for the rest of your post, I think I'll just let that stand on its own merit...

[Ang]

Thing is...no one here actually has all the answers, we all just have what we believe in. And we cling to it like crazy.

I've been a Christian for a long time and and some years better than others...but the thing that got me going and what I still stand on is a combo of the historical reference (which is significant) and the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. Sounds silly...and I refuted it for years, but if you really open yourself up to the idea that God works in your life..he will take you up on it and change your life in ways you never expected, but asked for.

I doubted for years, and when I finally gave up..I got the proof. Each person needs their own proof. If anyone is still asking..they need to ask further or just wait. And if you don't believe but are still asking..you might find a surprise down the road.

There are so many things that have happened to me the past two years...things that I have been waiting and praying for that would not happen....that when they all did in a way that just fit it all, folks that knew me, and even some that didn't know me well, just sat back and said...'this is a God thing'.

And the difference was..I accepted the Holy Spirit. It sounds crazy, but I do believe that there is a true spirit in all we know that is just a true and pure thing that can infuse us with something more pure than we can ever really comprehend. And it helps us.

Helped me.

[M2]

Thing is...no one here actually has all the answers, we all just have what we believe in. And we cling to it like crazy.

I've been a Christian for a long time and and some years better than others...but the thing that got me going and what I still stand on is a combo of the historical reference (which is significant) and the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. Sounds silly...and I refuted it for years, but if you really open yourself up to the idea that God works in your life..he will take you up on it and change your life in ways you never expected, but asked for.

I doubted for years, and when I finally gave up..I got the proof. Each person needs their own proof. If anyone is still asking..they need to ask further or just wait. And if you don't believe but are still asking..you might find a surprise down the road.

There are so many things that have happened to me the past two years...things that I have been waiting and praying for that would not happen....that when they all did in a way that just fit it all, folks that knew me, and even some that didn't know me well, just sat back and said...'this is a God thing'.

And the difference was..I accepted the Holy Spirit. It sounds crazy, but I do believe that there is a true spirit in all we know that is just a true and pure thing that can infuse us with something more pure than we can ever really comprehend. And it helps us.

Helped me.

WoW!

Where do I sign up?



the truth

[tough love]

tough love wrote:
Can't blame God for the evil doings of man

MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan posted:
Why not?

Free Will

Ang Wrote: Each person needs their own proof.

And for some, no amount of proof will ever be enough.

RACK The Holy Spirit

[rozy]

Thing is...no one here actually has all the answers, we all just have what we believe in. And we cling to it like crazy.

I've been a Christian for a long time and and some years better than others...but the thing that got me going and what I still stand on is a combo of the historical reference (which is significant) and the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. Sounds silly...and I refuted it for years, but if you really open yourself up to the idea that God works in your life..he will take you up on it and change your life in ways you never expected, but asked for.

I doubted for years, and when I finally gave up..I got the proof. Each person needs their own proof. If anyone is still asking..they need to ask further or just wait. And if you don't believe but are still asking..you might find a surprise down the road.

There are so many things that have happened to me the past two years...things that I have been waiting and praying for that would not happen....that when they all did in a way that just fit it all, folks that knew me, and even some that didn't know me well, just sat back and said...'this is a God thing'.

And the difference was..I accepted the Holy Spirit. It sounds crazy, but I do believe that there is a true spirit in all we know that is just a true and pure thing that can infuse us with something more pure than we can ever really comprehend. And it helps us.

Helped me.

Beautiful...

[Cicero]

In response to Mike's original question, if the mentioned scenario were to take place, then yes I would probably have to admit that I was believing the wrong thing all these years.

Am I the most avid Christian? No. SHould I probably go to Church more?? Yes, but I have my own relationship w/ G-d and I think that is all you need. I know a lot of people that wake up every Sunday and only open that Bible while sitting in a pew, and then the rest of the week lead a life that is the total opposite of what the Church preaches.

I think the Bible has many things one can dispute, but it gives a good number of people hope and serves as a measuring stick for them to live by. My grandmother for sure would have passed away many years ago once my grandfather died if not for her blind faith in the Lord, and that is why I think a G-d exists. It gave her strength, when she needed it.

If believing in an entity allows people the opportunity to turn their life around or lead a life of simplicity and love, then thats alright by me.

[poptart]

Why not? God [allegedly] created man, and in his own image even. Being all-knowing, God knew that man would fall into sin and commit countless acts of evil. Yet God went ahead and created man anyway. I can't really think of anyone more worthy of blame.

Mike,

Man created in 'God's image' means that like God, man is a spiritual being.
Man is unique among all living creatures in that regard.


~ John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ~


God has freely given you the way to come back to Him, and yet you choose to blame Him for the state of affairs...?

There are two types of people in the world, God's children and satan's children.
Jesus, speaking to non-believers, said the following..........


~ John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. ~

or.....

~ John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name ~


Jesus showed himself to be the Christ of God, and by taking him, You, in the blink of an eye, become God's child forever, no matter what takes place after your acceptance.

Those who remain sinful, in denial of the Christ, have no choice but to follow their father to the place prepared for Him and his angels.


~ Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ~


The 'sin', and 'acts of evil' on earth are the result of satan (read the 3rd chapter of Genesis). This satan will end up in hell, along with all who are his children. Those who receive the Christ HAVE (right NOW) the greatest blessing of all, Immanuel (God with us), and ultimately have heavenly citizenship waiting for them.

No need to blame God for anything.

[tough love]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

[Diogenes]

What would it take for you to stop believing what you currently believe? Is there any scenario, no matter how far-fetched, in which you might say "Wow, I guess I was wrong this whole time"?

For example, let's say a being appeared on earth tomorrow and said "Hey, sorry about all the confusion, but I'm the one who got this whole thing rolling billions of years ago. Just wanted to clear things up so you all can stop killing each other over made-up gods."

Let's say this being allows himself to be tested in every conceivable way. It performs miracles, reads minds, etc. It basically says, "I'm willing to do whatever it takes to prove to mankind that I'm the real deal." And every single time someone comes up with a test, it passes it. Even the vast majority of religious leaders in the world ultimately come around and say, "Yeah, it looks like we were wrong. This being is the real deal."

Would you renounce your current beliefs and admit you were wrong, or would you just chalk it up as an elaborately staged trick by Satan to tempt you into not believing?

Dio, how did you miss this? The above...........is going to happen.

That's why I went for option B.

[Diogenes]

Rack Mike. You ask a few reasonable questions, and you get FTFY and spin. Is that what this forum is supposed to be about?

If that was directed at me, the "FTFY" was actually on target. And there was no 'spin', just answers you don't like. Besides, my keybord took a dive on me Sunday night, so that actually was all I can manage at the time, when I picked up a new one after work monday. my Internet connection was toast.

I hate it when that happens.

[Diogenes]

I guess I just question the accuracy of a 2000-year-old manuscript that has gone through myriad revisions...

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

You're wrong Dio but I think you know that. The bible is one of the most revised works in human history. Try reading a translation, a propper translation, of the Hebrew scriptures and then get back to us about wheather the bible has been revised.

You mean like the "revisions" from the "secret gospel of Mark"?

Actually it hasn't, all of the variations in the oldest manuscripts available are minor and of little theological consequence.

[Diogenes]

To start with you would need a credible explaination of how life on this planet began without outside influences.

And Genesis fits that bill for you?

Genesis doesn't actually go into detail about the origin of life, but the timeline is on mark and there is nothing in it that can be proved as non-factual.

Starting with the Big Bang.

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

I guess I would to. Except the Bible hasn't.

You're wrong Dio but I think you know that. The bible is one of the most revised works in human history. Try reading a translation, a propper translation, of the Hebrew scriptures and then get back to us about wheather the bible has been revised.

You mean like the "revisions" from the "secret gospel of Mark"?

Actually it hasn't, all of the variations in the oldest manuscripts available are minor and of little theological consequence.

"Available" being the operative term...

[MiketheangrydrunkenCUfan]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

[tough love]

^
God created his will creatures with a feature which affords them the freedom to choose the eternal path, or not...Spin that any way you like, but you can never change the fact that you have been born a will creature.

[Tom In VA]

^
Amen, my Brother.



Free Will:
For some a blessing
For others, a curse.

If you subscribe to the idea that we were all created by a god who is all-powerful & all-knowing, then there's no way that "free will" exists. It might seem like you're making your own choices, but god would already know what those choices are before you were ever born. That's not free will. That's pre-determination. You guys want to have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

An all-knowing god and mankind's "free will" are mutually exclusive.

You're still trying to apply fallible, finite thinking to that which is infallible and infinite. You exercise your will to believe or you do not i.e. you choose to believe or you do not. But I'll bet God knows what choice you'll make, and I have faith that it will be to believe on Him. In time, without argument or apologetics being necessary, when you're alone someday.

God bless you.