ever been fucked like this?

[Moby Dick]

i sit down at a 1/2 dollar no limit table with 100bucks...

and after about 3 hours of playing pretty damned good poker..i'm sitting at about 160....the whole time i was at the table the guy 2 people down from me was talking shit..of course trying to put folks on tilt or whatever...anyhow...after about the initial first hour i was there...we hadnt gone heads up nor had he won any 'big' money from me (aside from 5 maybe 10 bucks). so he starts trying to me on tilt..talking shit and whatnot....

anyhow...2 hours later..it's the same...neither of us were taking either's money..but we both had nice stacks....and here comes the hand.



i get pocket jacks...and i'm pretty tired and ready to go home...so i bet 20 bucks. he raises 20...so i just call. (when he raises he says "fuck it..i aint got shit, but i'm not going to let you push me around like that")

flop comes 6 6 J

i instantly go into "slow play" mode...but against my own judgement..i bet 20 again....he raises and says "you aint gonna push me around"

so i re-raise 40....and he goes all in.

without thinking (and even if i had an HOUR to think about it), i call.

the cocksucker had pocket 6's.

i dont think i've ever had such a bad beat in my life.

it was a fun 160$ hand.




any other victims of the bad beat?

[Adelpiero]

dude, there is niw way you could put him on pocket 6's, when 2 splash the board.


that was a bad beat, especially with you drawing the boat off the flop.

[buckeye_in_sc]

agreed Moby...


I was playing 3/6 limit at the Mirage last October...i get dealt pocket 3's...i got about $70 of my original $100 in front of me...ran into two bad hands which cost me my profit and then some...one of the hands a lady stayed in the pot with raises and re-raises between me and another guy with flushes (I had the nuts he had 2nd flush) she stays in with 7/6 off and catches one of her 4 outs on the river to make the boat (that was a huge loss)...anyhoo...

I raises to 6 on the button, SB folds, BB calls, and get two other callers...the flop comes 3/K/K (mind you I have pocket 3's)...so i flop a boat...BB bets, one caller, fold, then to me and I raise to 6...BB calls, other guy calls...turn brick...BB bets...other caller folds I raise...BB calls...river brick...BB bets, I raise, he re-raises, I re-raise he caps (since he only brought over $50 something in chips or so - he was waiting on a runner)...i turn over 3's full, he turns over K/3...for kings full...got beat boat over boat...oh well fuck me...there went most of the rest of my stack...he what can you do?

[Guest]

i dont think i've ever had such a bad beat in my life.

That isn't a "bad beat."

That's getting worked by a better player.

If you ain't nutted, don't throw all of your money at it...wait...the huy told you he didn't have anything, so it must have been true.

There was a 4 of a kind on the board. You didn't respect it. You paid.


When dude with a big stack in front of him tells you something, more often than not, it isn't true. Dude with a big stack in front of him didn't get bick stack by being dumb. And he proved it.


But that said...that hand probably would have cost me some money, too. But then again...if I ain't got the nut, I ain't throwing that much money, post-flop.

[buckeye_in_sc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you mean because it is sooooo easy to put someone on pocket 6's especially when you can basically only be beat by the quads at this point...

and also it is only 81%/19% in favor of moby preflop...but hey armchair it all you want...

i'll bet a shitload of players...even pros would have hung themselves on Moby's hand...

[Guest]

...if I ain't got the nut, I ain't throwing that much money, post-flop.

Then you're a losing player.

[Neely8]

I had jacks in the hole once. Flopped the set and went all in. Guy calls and he has pocket 8's. Dominated.......no way I could lose. Dude has one diamond in his hand and I have none. He ends up hitting running diamonds to win with a flush. Thats a bad beat. You were beaten after the flop. That is not a bad beat.....

[buckeye_in_sc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

true to a point but Moby did have a massive advantage pre-flop when the raises went into the center...plus to flop a boat is what .50% happening let alone quads...

actually statiscally that was an awesome hand to see two things happen that are rarities...flopping both a boat and quads...

hate it for Moby but from a math angle pretty sweet...

[Mook]

Anybody would lose a lot of money on that hand, but it most definitely wasn't a bad beat.

[Dinsdale]

I was "guest." Didn't mean to post as "guest," it just happened.

But, nice selective quoting.

...if I ain't got the nut, I ain't throwing that much money, post-flop.

Then you're a losing player.

Conveniently left out:

But that said...that hand probably would have cost me some money, too.

I probably would have rode that horse, as well. That's kinda why I even said as much. And I would have lost, too, because I also would have made a mistake, because it's an easy one to make. But that's exactly what it would have been...a "mistake," not a "bad beat."

There's even a name for that mistake -- "calling his mouth, and not his cards."

The mistake also lied in the psychology -- even though dude had amassed a lot of chips, you underestimated him because of his mouth. Dude obviously wasn't stupid, and he proved it. Dude knew what was going on, yet continued pushing chips....HELLO? Wasn't just along for the ride, looking to run out -- dude freaking was making huge raises with a low pair on the board. The board paired up, and dude dropped twenty times the minimum.....HELLO?


Two ways to deal with it -- learn something from the mistake, and retain this expensive knowledge for next time, or shrug it off as a "bad beat," and move on without learning anything. Intelligent people do one thing, not-so-smart people do the other.

And as far as the percentages and whatnot -- sounds great...if you're playing a robot. But, the game is generally played against humans, so there's a little more to it. It may have been 81/19 preflop, but when dude dropped 20 times the freaking blind, take those preflop odds with a grain of salt.



But hey, I know this is falling on deaf ears -- you're right, and I'm wrong...I know, I know. Then again, I'm not the one who just got "rookied" out of $160, but hey...


"Bad beat."

[buckeye_in_sc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dins wasn't trying to flame or what not just taking some other points of interest...

sure 81/19 preflop doesn't mean squat once the flop hits the board (could get worse or better)...but usually a raise that high smells like perhaps a mid-pair (say 5's - 9's)??? Again pure conjecture as different people play their hole cards differently (Obviously)...but hey that is the beauty of this game...one of the reasons why I am trying to play more Omaha...the shit changes by each street (moreso than hold em)...

you're right maybe "bad beat" wasn't the correct terminology...but dude could have also put that much in the middle with a set...strong draw, etc??? again beauty of the game...


would like to get into more theory discussions with you guys...I'll start one later on some random thoughts and observations i have come across while playing in home games and games in the hood...

one question (not related to this topic) do you guys find it less donkish at a little higher stakes online say $2/4 Limit or something like that?

[Dinsdale]

Dins wasn't trying to flame or what not just taking some other points of interest...

Historically, I never flame in the topical forums, unless that's where the bus is headed. Never takes on the same tone as the main forum, regardless.

do you guys find it less donkish at a little higher stakes online say $2/4 Limit or something like that?

Very much so.


Although, even in $1 open tournies, and even freerolls, once the chaffe is sorted out in the early going, it gets much more "real" once you get to the last few tables. Enough time goes by that the idiots have been eaten up by the good players. You just have to get to that point.

What you might notice, is that it kind of varies with the time of day. If you ply on friday and saturday nights, between about 11pm and 3am(depending on time zones and whatnot) you get the "just got home from the bar/casino, and is still on tilt, and very drunk" crowd -- easy freaking money.


Then again, take that with a grain of salt -- my PP account is hovering somewhere under $1. Bit since I never made a deposit, and am not into it so much as a dime, big whoopdiedo.

[Dinsdale]

Oh...

but usually a raise that high smells like perhaps a mid-pair (say 5's - 9's)???

That was kind of my point....it should have smelled like something.


Dude doesn't get a massive pile of chips by throwing 20 times the blind at garbage over the course of several hours. He suely bluffed his way to some of it at one time or another that evening...and guess what? That hand wasn't one of those times. That massive bet was a red flag that he flopped something huge. Dude knew it, too...and started running his mouth to hide what was really going on.


Look at it as dude charging you $160 for an advanced lesson. A lot of the brash players will incorporate that as a strategy -- and often, when the mouth runs the most, it's used as a distraction from the board...the board that showed that J J clearly wasn't the nut. If the guy had suddenly gone silent, and appeared nervous while pushing chips...would you still have stayed?

[buckeye_in_sc]

^^^^^^^^^^^

agree...but still hard to get away from a flopped boat...and I think everyone said as much that it would have cost them money or been tough to get away from...but hey...it happens and you are right you learn something from it...

took me a while to quit trying to put our local calling stations off hands...now I just let them hang themselves or I am on to them having the nuts or something strong...of course it took me a few sessions and losing some key pots in tourneys or cash games...all part of the learning process which is why this game is so challenging and you can never figure it out...

anyway thanks for the point on the higher limits...I might just make a line in the sand put up a bankroll and say fuck it...once it is gone my days of real money online poker are over...

[Moby Dick]

Dins, you're nuts if you honestly think i believe what players bark out at a poker table.

there's no such thing as an honest poker player :wink:

[Dinsdale]

Dins, you're nuts if you honestly think i believe what players bark out at a poker table.

he says "fuck it..i aint got shit, but i'm not going to let you push me around like that")

Oh, sorry...don't know how I could have ever got that impression.


Bottom line on this one...there was a psychological game going on, as well(sin, Marcus Allen). You lost.

And cite all the pre-flop odds you like -- they went out the window once the chips started flying. The facts were: Dude had a big mouth. Dude amassed a big stack of chips over the last few hours. Dude bet 20 times the freaking blind. At that point, the only odds you were playing (since you didn't have the nutz), were:

Is this dude who has a fat stack of chips for the last several hours...is he an idiot, or not?

THAT was the question. He knew when you bet 10 times the minimum that you had cards. He KNEW this. So, was dude really going to toss up HUGE money at a $2 table just because he "didn't want to get pushed around?"

C'mon...

The only odds being played at that point were the odds of a guy being a complete moron. And with a huge stack in front of him, odds were pretty big that the dude knew what was up...and he obviously did...got you too call every single move of his flopped quads.

That ain't a "bad beat"...that's getting "beaten badly."

And I'm still not saying I wouldn't have fallen for it, either. When things start getting really crazy, I've found that "when in doubt, fold" isn't a bad startegy. And a dude betting that flop that heavily would have definitely created some doubt.


At any rate, it sounds like the guy was an annoying SOB. Gets in your head sometimes, to be sure.

[buckeye_in_sc]

SC (raises hand) I cited the pre flop odds not Moby...

I was just simply pointing out that Moby was a huge favorite preflop and that obviously didn't mean shit...but again if you flop a boat...well hell only one or two hands could beat ya...but again...he could have had a set, strong draw, of course we don't know how he played all night could he have been a complete donk who caught cards? perhaps...

[Dinsdale]

we don't know how he played all night could he have been a complete donk who caught cards? perhaps...

Don't know either, but dude apparently amassed chips over several hours. And the old "make everyone think you're an idiot" strategy can be deadly freaking effective...and it was in this case.

But that strategy shouldn't be effective after a few hours of it. Annoying as all hell...sure.

But it's awwwwfully hard to turf the high boat....granted.

[Adelpiero]

i would of put him on a set or AA, KK.

and i would of slow played that boat to my death.




and would of left broke!

[Dinsdale]

and would of left broke!

I'm mostly giving Moby shit....good chance I would have left pretty light, in front of a trail of tears, myself.

But I'll tell you what -- since I quit drinking, it's become WAYYYYYYYYY easier to see that shit coming, and not get schooled....wonder why that is? Must be a "judgement over emotion" thing?

I have a MUCH easier time of raising the white flag, and jumping off the war horse I rode into battle on. In the Old Days, I'd always sip a few (often mote than "a few"), which is fine when everyone else is drinking. But damn, I didn't realize how much fun could be had by being the sober guy....one of the few situations in life where that's the case. The rampant pride that keeps you in hands that get behind isn't nearly such a driving force when sober.

Plus, I smoke so much more weed when I'm out partying/playing cards when I'm not drinking, which makes me a lot more methodical.


That's one of my secrets to winning...get reallyreally stoned first. Not too often that makes you a "winner" in life, but dammit -- I found one circumstance.

[Eaglebauer]

Dins, you're nuts if you honestly think i believe what players bark out at a poker table.

he says "fuck it..i aint got shit, but i'm not going to let you push me around like that")

Oh, sorry...don't know how I could have ever got that impression.


Bottom line on this one...there was a psychological game going on, as well(sin, Marcus Allen). You lost.

And cite all the pre-flop odds you like -- they went out the window once the chips started flying. The facts were: Dude had a big mouth. Dude amassed a big stack of chips over the last few hours. Dude bet 20 times the freaking blind. At that point, the only odds you were playing (since you didn't have the nutz), were:

Is this dude who has a fat stack of chips for the last several hours...is he an idiot, or not?

THAT was the question. He knew when you bet 10 times the minimum that you had cards. He KNEW this. So, was dude really going to toss up HUGE money at a $2 table just because he "didn't want to get pushed around?"

C'mon...

The only odds being played at that point were the odds of a guy being a complete moron. And with a huge stack in front of him, odds were pretty big that the dude knew what was up...and he obviously did...got you too call every single move of his flopped quads.

That ain't a "bad beat"...that's getting "beaten badly."

And I'm still not saying I wouldn't have fallen for it, either. When things start getting really crazy, I've found that "when in doubt, fold" isn't a bad startegy. And a dude betting that flop that heavily would have definitely created some doubt.


At any rate, it sounds like the guy was an annoying SOB. Gets in your head sometimes, to be sure.

Jesus.

Any good player is going to lose a full buy-in on this flop.

Only a losing player "puts him on" a four of a kind and folds on this flop.

Bottom line, long-run-- calling all-in with top full house will win the most money. I don't care wtf the guy is saying.

[Moby Dick]

Dins, you're nuts if you honestly think i believe what players bark out at a poker table.

he says "fuck it..i aint got shit, but i'm not going to let you push me around like that")

Oh, sorry...don't know how I could have ever got that impression.


Bottom line on this one...there was a psychological game going on, as well(sin, Marcus Allen). You lost.

And cite all the pre-flop odds you like -- they went out the window once the chips started flying. The facts were: Dude had a big mouth. Dude amassed a big stack of chips over the last few hours. Dude bet 20 times the freaking blind. At that point, the only odds you were playing (since you didn't have the nutz), were:

Is this dude who has a fat stack of chips for the last several hours...is he an idiot, or not?

THAT was the question. He knew when you bet 10 times the minimum that you had cards. He KNEW this. So, was dude really going to toss up HUGE money at a $2 table just because he "didn't want to get pushed around?"

C'mon...

The only odds being played at that point were the odds of a guy being a complete moron. And with a huge stack in front of him, odds were pretty big that the dude knew what was up...and he obviously did...got you too call every single move of his flopped quads.

That ain't a "bad beat"...that's getting "beaten badly."

And I'm still not saying I wouldn't have fallen for it, either. When things start getting really crazy, I've found that "when in doubt, fold" isn't a bad startegy. And a dude betting that flop that heavily would have definitely created some doubt.


At any rate, it sounds like the guy was an annoying SOB. Gets in your head sometimes, to be sure.

who cares if i said "bad beat" instead of having said "beaten badly".

at the same fucking time..i'll play the EXACT same way with that hand wether someone is barking or NOT.


*edit
just read your post about smokin weed before/while?

hmmmm..honestly sounds like something i'd like to do...mostly to mellow nerves.
it REALLY pisses me off wen i get in on a 50 or a 100 person tourney at the casinos..and my nerves are fucked up for the first half hour.

I also try to keep my hand as still as possible until i'm either looking at cards..or pushing chips in.

[Neely8]

Dins, you're nuts if you honestly think i believe what players bark out at a poker table.

he says "fuck it..i aint got shit, but i'm not going to let you push me around like that")

Oh, sorry...don't know how I could have ever got that impression.


Bottom line on this one...there was a psychological game going on, as well(sin, Marcus Allen). You lost.

And cite all the pre-flop odds you like -- they went out the window once the chips started flying. The facts were: Dude had a big mouth. Dude amassed a big stack of chips over the last few hours. Dude bet 20 times the freaking blind. At that point, the only odds you were playing (since you didn't have the nutz), were:

Is this dude who has a fat stack of chips for the last several hours...is he an idiot, or not?

THAT was the question. He knew when you bet 10 times the minimum that you had cards. He KNEW this. So, was dude really going to toss up HUGE money at a $2 table just because he "didn't want to get pushed around?"

C'mon...

The only odds being played at that point were the odds of a guy being a complete moron. And with a huge stack in front of him, odds were pretty big that the dude knew what was up...and he obviously did...got you too call every single move of his flopped quads.

That ain't a "bad beat"...that's getting "beaten badly."

And I'm still not saying I wouldn't have fallen for it, either. When things start getting really crazy, I've found that "when in doubt, fold" isn't a bad startegy. And a dude betting that flop that heavily would have definitely created some doubt.


At any rate, it sounds like the guy was an annoying SOB. Gets in your head sometimes, to be sure.

who cares if i said "bad beat" instead of having said "beaten badly".

at the same fucking time..i'll play the EXACT same way with that hand wether someone is barking or NOT.


*edit
just read your post about smokin weed before/while?

hmmmm..honestly sounds like something i'd like to do...mostly to mellow nerves.
it REALLY pisses me off wen i get in on a 50 or a 100 person tourney at the casinos..and my nerves are fucked up for the first half hour.

I also try to keep my hand as still as possible until i'm either looking at cards..or pushing chips in.

Ahhhhhh the shaking hand. I use that one sometimes to force calls/action. People see that and they automatically think your a schlub. Works like a charm......

[indyfrisco]

...if I ain't got the nut, I ain't throwing that much money, post-flop.

Then you're a losing player.

Umm, with your logic, you just outed yourself as a player who only goes all in only when he has the nut.

[Dinsdale]

Ahhhhhh the shaking hand. I use that one sometimes to force calls/action. People see that and they automatically think your a schlub. Works like a charm......

Another good one, is when you've got something solid from the get-go, and you flop even better, when the turn/river hits, loook down at your cards, then push your body slightly back in the chair...very slightly...then stealthily look around with "shifty eyes" to see if anyone noticed (they did).

Done correctly, that body language screams "I was chasing, and I didn't hit."


Tough, tough technique, but effective. Leaning in while slightly raising the eyebrows , then doing the "did they notice: look is a good one when going in with something shakey.

[Neely8]

Ahhhhhh the shaking hand. I use that one sometimes to force calls/action. People see that and they automatically think your a schlub. Works like a charm......

Another good one, is when you've got something solid from the get-go, and you flop even better, when the turn/river hits, loook down at your cards, then push your body slightly back in the chair...very slightly...then stealthily look around with "shifty eyes" to see if anyone noticed (they did).

Done correctly, that body language screams "I was chasing, and I didn't hit."


Tough, tough technique, but effective. Leaning in while slightly raising the eyebrows , then doing the "did they notice: look is a good one when going in with something shakey.

I love the art of fucking with people at the table. I always thought I would be quiet and reserved. Not wanting to give up anything. I am quite the opposite. I talk way more then I thought I ever would. That combined with the slight psychological plays like the shaking hand are so much fun to use.

I remember one night I sat down and this kid comes running over to sit with his buddy and he says "Dude there are so many fish here......this should be easy". A couple hours later when I had all of their chips I just looked the idiot and the eyes and went "Blub Blub" with a fish face. PRICELESS.......

[Dinsdale]

I love the art of fucking with people at the table.

Probably the most fun part of the game. But, always remember the "never underestimate your opponent" theme, and figure that after a couplefew hours, good players have been watching your act, and after enough time might wisen up to it...also another cool part of the game, the "when and how much bullshit" aspect.

But it seems to work on the tunas all night long.


But always beware the guy with the pile of chips...he didn't get them by being worked over. Save your "best moves" for when you get in a showdown with "that guy."

This forum is cool....RACK me for joking about creating one...I was just kidding. The admin responsible wasn't, and did a good thing.

[Neely8]

I love it. Nothing like good poker talk.......

[Dinsdale]

This board is...perish the thought...becoming almost functional.

As a general rule, through much of my day, I'm either bullshitting with people about poker and/or golf. This board has some people in the same boat. Kind of takes away from my zeal to constantly remind everyone here what retards they are, and how much cooler I am than them.


The horrah'.

[buckeye_in_sc]

glad I posted the orignal post in the CF forum so as not to get flamed in the main forum...

glad you guys like the forum...i have learned a bit since this forum opened up...

last night placed 14th in the Full Tilt 10+1 speed tourney...was chip leader for a bit and then went card dead and couldn't get any momentum going and but some of the stuff you guys have talked about helped me last night...


RACK YOU GUYS...i wish i could have had a better result but $11 turned into $35 I guess is ok for just playing for a bit...just 3 more FUCKING places and it jumped to like $75...fuck me...

[indyfrisco]

I just wish I had time to play online.

Take that back. I'd probably lose my ass.

[Mook]

You won't lose your ass online as long as you don't try to get "fancy". I know some of the earlier posts talk about messing with people (in a B&M, I know) and that's fine, but for the most part unless you are playing at higher levels you don't need to be fancy or clever you simply need to play straightforward poker and that will be enough to grind out a profit. It's not real fun, in fact it is quite boring, but you can make some $$'s if you do this. Now, if you just want to have some fun and blow some money by all means get fancy. It will even work sometimes and when it does it is fun. And regardless of how well you play, sometimes you'll lose, but if you get your money into the pot with the best of it you will win over the long run. It's a fun game and with so many people playing now it can be profitable just playing basic poker, which as I mentioned isn't usually very much fun.

[buckeye_in_sc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

would you consider basic poker to be...playing premium hands and only playing non-premium hands if you are in an unraised blind situation???

I know in limit I try to usually play a little looser if I am playing at the lower limit levels...but that usually comes back to haunt me...

[Mook]

Yes, buckeye that is basically what I'm saying. I think you can range a bit out of playing just premium hands but have an understanding of what you are doing. In limit you can play a wider variety of hands depending on how many people have entered the pot. Just know the limitations of marginal hands and understand the mathematics of hitting what you are hoping to by playing these hands. If most people knew the odds of hitting a flush with "suited" cards, they wouldn't even consider playing some of the junk they do. Also understand that just seeing a flop can get expensive over several hours. Say you're playing a $4-$8 game and you see two flops an hour with hands you know you probably shouldn't play and you play for six hours.......assuming you lose or drop after you don't hit the miracle flop you have cost yourself $48 and that is tough to make up in a low level limit game. I also think people make post flop mistakes such as slow playing....most games are not tight, most players are definitely not tight, therefore bet your made hands and make people pay with inferior hands. But yes, if you truly play "tight" poker at limit games you will win in the long run. You can have some big swings however, so don't get too frustrated. If the table is loose, you need to tighten up....if the table is tight, you can be a little looser. Don't let the stakes you are playing for change the way you play, be they higher or lower than usual. Because if you don't play good poker you will lose at any level, unless you just get a rush of cards.....which is always nice. :wink:

[buckeye_in_sc]

That is the one thing...sometimes I get bored or frustrated and play hands I should online...

yesterday I played some limit and did farely well playing tighter and more aggressive with hands...


unfortunately this morning I got fancy - yes I violated my own rule and it cost me...the table was fairly loose and one person kept raising every single time and showing down crap...so I started to call and not hit so you guessed it, cost me a few bucks...but hey its all in learning and what not...my online game needs some work and I try to play a couple mornings a week at low limits until I feel comfortable...


good point on the looseness vs tightness of the table...need to pay a little more attention to that...

so you guys like the forum so far?

[Dinsdale]

If most people knew the odds of hitting a flush with "suited" cards, they wouldn't even consider playing some of the junk they do.

Nothing says "I learned poker by watching WSOP on ESPN" like riding suited non-consecutives.


But, with non-connectors, if you just happen to be sitting at a reeeeeeeeally big table with more than 120 people on it playing with a 52 card deck, and you weren't on the blinds....

Then by all means...your odds are pretty decent.

[Degenerate]

Just know the limitations of marginal hands and understand the mathematics of hitting what you are hoping to by playing these hands. If most people knew the odds of hitting a flush with "suited" cards, they wouldn't even consider playing some of the junk they do. :

Okay, so this isn't the poker books thread, but this point is what i am looking for in print. Is there a good resource on odds/percentages, pre- and/or post-flop? I heard the Sklansky/Malmuth Advanced Hold 'Em book delves into them but i haven't seen the book, much less read it, to know.

Oh and rack Mook, rack Dins, rack buckeye in sc and rack the forum.

[indyfrisco]

Here is a link where you can set up any scenario you want and it will calculate the odds for you.

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_odds/te ... /index.php

[Dinsdale]

All this book stuff, and odds calculators....crazy.


I learned to play the game(7 stud, which makes the math in hold em look like freaking child's play) by "this hand could beat me, and this hand can beat me.....there's 28 cards left in the deck, 11 of which will screw me if they land on that guy's hand, so my odds are 11/28 that I'll get fucked, as oppsed to 7 in 28 that I'll win....fold."


Sure, sometimes my turns take a little while...but fuck all these young whippersnappers and their silly shortcuts...


Learn the game.


Phil Helmuth isn't going to be there to wipe your ass when you shit.


Get to counting, multiplying, and dividing. Or give up the game. Or lose. Those are your 3 choices...non-negotiable.


And as a benefit, learning how to calculate that stuff, or at least take a reasonable guesstimate at it allows you to play any poker game there is, rather than just memorizing Gut.....ERRRRRRRR "hold em" odds.


That said, Omaha is way too much math for me. I probably just need to play it more, but I always miss something. Too damn many cards on the table.

My favorite ultra-intense-math game is night(no-peek) baseball. Whoooole lotta math in that game. Eight wilds messes up everything.

[Moby Dick]

That said, Omaha is way too much math for me. I probably just need to play it more, but I always miss something. Too damn many cards on the table.

ugh..then throw in Omaha hi/low