New AP and USA Today polls

[GreginPG]

AP

1. Ohio State (65) 12-0 1,625
2. USC 10-1 1,540
3. Michigan 11-1 1,504
4. Florida 11-1 1,441
5. LSU 10-2 1,303
6. Louisville 10-1 1,241
7. Wisconsin 11-1 1,212
8. Oklahoma 10-2 1,095
8. Arkansas 10-2 1,095
10. Boise State 12-0 1,044
11. Auburn 10-2 966
12. Notre Dame 10-2 906
13. Rutgers 10-1 906
14. Virginia Tech 10-2 775
15. West Virginia 9-2 667

USA Today

1. Ohio State (63) 12-0 1,575
2. USC 10-1 1,491
3. Michigan 11-1 1,445
4. Florida 11-1 1,405
5. LSU 10-2 1,255
6. Wisconsin 11-1 1,221
7. Louisville 10-1 1,169
8. Arkansas 10-2 1,042
9. Boise State 12-0 1,018
10. Oklahoma 10-2 994
11. Auburn 10-2 985
12. Notre Dame 10-2 928
13. Rutgers 10-1 777
14. Virginia Tech 10-2 744
15. West Virginia 9-2 668

[Shoalzie]

The wheels are in motion for Ohio State-USC...this was the game they would make the leap over Michigan. It kind of makes you sick to think Michigan and Florida with the same record could be left out the mix but tis the system we have. I won't fault USC...they've taken care of business and I think they've got as much claim to that #2 spot as anyone. It can be said Michigan lost their chance at a national title last weekend but Florida to possibly make it through the SEC season with just one loss...that's gotta be hard to take for Meyer and his crew. Even if UCLA somehow beats USC next week, I think the Gators are still going to be left out in the cold.

[Adelpiero]

taking a peek at the top25, some teams who are underrated


BYU
Hawaii

Overrated

Virginia Tech
Wake Acc is down bigtime, both teams will be in trouble come bowltime.

[Mississippi Neck]

Michigan loses by 3 to Ohio State, at Ohio State, and is out. USC loses to Oregon State, OREGON STATE, and makes it. In no small measure because they lost earlier in the year.

Oh well, playoffs anyone?

[Shoalzie]

Oh well, playoffs anyone?

Yes please...

[Van]

I still have a problem with Louisville being ranked so highly. Bare minimum though there's no way they should be ranked so much higher than Rutgers.

They both have one loss, neither team's played anybody at all and Rutgers beat Louisville head to head. They should both only be floating around the periphery of the Top 10 but in all fairness Rutgers should have the higher ranking.

Oh, and yeah, for the millionth time, on the need for a playoffs of some sort.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Michigan loses by 3 to Ohio State, at Ohio State, and is out. USC loses to Oregon State, OREGON STATE, and makes it.

Tough shit.

Tell 'em to go beef up their OOC schedule.

It finally came back to bite them in the ass.

[Van]

Though they're definitely no Ohio St let's be clear here that Oregon St's not exactly the Oregon St of old, not when they're a bowl bound 8-4 team with a chance to finish up 9-4. Good luck though to their D in this next one, having to finish up at Hawaii...

50-48, anyone?

[Dinsdale]

they're a bowl bound 7-4 team with a chance to finish up 9-4.

FTFY

[Dinsdale]

Hawaii is going to kill the Sheepfuckers-btw.

Although Sabby Piscitelli will kill at least one of their recievers in the process.

[Van]

they're a bowl bound 7-4 team with a chance to finish up 9-4.

FTFY

Huh?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teamsched?teamId=204

Oregon St is 8-4, with only the Hawaii roadie remaining...

[Dinsdale]

Another "my bad"...I'm on a roll.

Extra OOC game messed me up.

Because if ANY team is worthy of extra games, it's got to be OrSU.



GOOOOOOO JUNEBUG!!!!!!!!!

Fuck the beavs.

[Van]

Come to think of it, yeah, including their bowl game Oregon St has a chance to end the season with ten wins.

Dunno for certain yet who they're going to get in their bowl game but I'm guessing their bowl game will prove to be an easier game than this next game at Hawaii.

collegefootballnews.com projects Oregon St playing Missouri in the Sun Bowl.

http://cfn.scout.com/2/592289.html

By FAR though the best projected match up for OUR purposes is their Holiday Bowl pick of Cal playing Nebraska. Man, how beautiful would the lead up to THAT one be??

bradhusker vs m2!!

Homosmack directed at a soft Bay Area/Pac 10 team vs Incest/Hillbilly Smack and lots of pics of Bay Area trees and mist shrouded bridges...

Please, Football Gods, make it happen.

[Ken]

taking a peek at the top25, some teams who are underrated

Overrated

Virginia Tech
Wake Acc is down bigtime, both teams will be in trouble come bowltime.

You'll have to show me where Wake is ranked in either of the top 15 polls above. Further, I hear NOTHING regardiing Wake from the national media. NOTHING. And you call them overrated? Doesn't Wake have to meet both of these prerequisites to be considered overrated? Hell, VaTech too. What do you hear about them in the national media?

[Dinsdale]

Come to think of it, yeah, including their bowl game Oregon St has a chance to end the season with ten wins.

Yeah, that's about a bunch of shit, ain't it?

Dunno for certain yet who they're going to get in their bowl game but I'm guessing their bowl game will prove to be an easier game than this next game at Hawaii.

Give them Notre Dame. It's worked out well for them in the past.

And giving Piscitelli a crack at Smardjiaskhadflkzbvdia? He'd go out of his way to kill the dork.

[Van]

Oregon St might very well roll ND. Then again Oregon St might very well roll Missouri too.

Thing is, ND's BCS bowl bound so there's no way they could meet Oregon St. Hate to say it but ND's going to get rolled by either Michigan in the Rose or the SEC winner in the Sugar, especially if it's Arkansas. ND-Florida would likely be a closer game.

[Dinsdale]

I think any team that takes a vague poke at playing any sort of defense will roll ND.

[Shoalzie]

Michigan loses by 3 to Ohio State, at Ohio State, and is out. USC loses to Oregon State, OREGON STATE, and makes it.

Tough shit.

Tell 'em to go beef up their OOC schedule.

It finally came back to bite them in the ass.

True...but they did beat Notre Dame by more points and it was in South Bend. Without that flukish onside play, that score would've been even tighter. I think the bottom line is that the majority of the college football nation doesn't want to see Michigan vs. Ohio State again so I wouldn't be shocked if some pollsters put the Trojans #2 even if they don't really think they're better than Michigan. I'd love to see those two lock up on the field. How about this for a 4-team playoff...Ohio State-Florida and Michigan-USC? That would be pretty sweet. If Michigan would beat USC in that case, they would re-earn the right to play Ohio State again. I think losing to Ohio State at the end of the year is probably the worst thing to happen to Michigan...not their schedule. Arkansas, Notre Dame and Nebraska has proven to be a great OOC slate for the Trojans and they won those three games decively...it's that one hiccup against the Beavers that many will use as ammo against USC. You can't have a better loss than a close loss at the #1 team in the nation. Even if Oregon State finishes with 9 or 10 wins, they aren't Ohio State...but no one is right now.

[Mississippi Neck]

Well said...

[stuckinia]

Overrated

Virginia Tech

Maybe.

But this Hokie D is the best (statistically) in the nation. They got bitch-slapped by GT. They believed their own Thursday night hype against BC. Branden Ore will be a top 10 RB next year. 10-2 in a rebuilding year is impressive. The offense returned only 2 players from last year, a WR and FB. The O-line and QB are young weaknesses, but the strength of the D can more than make up for the weaknesses. The Hokies may not win their bowl game, but they are going to play a tough, close game.

[Cuda]

There's just no justification for USC, with 10 wins, to jump in the standings over two teams that have both won 11 games.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

it's that one hiccup against the Beavers that many will use as ammo against USC.

You can't have a better loss than a close loss at the #1 team in the nation. Even if Oregon State finishes with 9 or 10 wins, they aren't Ohio State...but no one is right now.

Actually, no. There won't be this contingent of "many" that you speak of. After USC takes care of UCLA, they'll have nestled even tighter into their #2 spot, and Michigan will be forgotten. Unless by "many," you mean upper midwest pasty white boys with hard-ons for family members. But I'm pretty sure they don't get a vote.

Look, guy, comparative analysis through a single loss hasn't, and never will be the criteria for which we determine "who's most deserving."

You want that to be the case soooooooo bad, yet, when the face of reality pokes that ugly head into the picture, you're going to be reminded of how shit actually works.

I know. Reality sure can be disappointing.

It's about comparing wins. It's about looking at the entire set of games.

USC has the chance to make history, by possibly beating two conference champs in the same regular season. Not to mention a host of quality conference wins. Even if they don't ("make history"), their resume of wins, from top to bottom, will still be vastly more impressive than Michigan's.

Yet honks like you want to hang your hat on a single game. How convenient. Why did they even play the rest of the games?

[Van]

Michigan loses by 3 to Ohio State, at Ohio State, and is out. USC loses to Oregon State, OREGON STATE, and makes it.

Tough shit.

Tell 'em to go beef up their OOC schedule.

It finally came back to bite them in the ass.

True...but they did beat Notre Dame by more points and it was in South Bend.

And it was in Week 2 rather than Week 12, by which point ND was riding a nine game winning streak. WHEN you play somebody obviously matters, at least somewhat.

Without that flukish onside play, that score would've been even tighter.

And without ND scoring a purely cosmetic TD with three minutes left during garbage time and without USC flukishly hooking a PAT the winning margin is 21 even without USC's last special teams fluke TD. Bottom line, USC was comfortably in control the whole game.

I think the bottom line is that the majority of the college football nation doesn't want to see Michigan vs. Ohio State again so I wouldn't be shocked if some pollsters put the Trojans #2 even if they don't really think they're better than Michigan.

Agreed, on both counts. Michigan dommed themselves by scheduling so softly. It's that simple. Well, that, and losing their rivalry game, the one game they HAD to have.

In general I think we can all agree that Brent Musberger is a total idiot but the one point he makes with which MANY of is agree is that a team should HAVE to win their own conference in order to be eligible for the BCS title game. That's not in the rule books now but it should be and it's not too much to ask.

I'd love to see those two lock up on the field. How about this for a 4-team playoff...Ohio State-Florida and Michigan-USC? That would be pretty sweet.

As ALWAYS, Plus One is all we need. This is the third season out of the last four where Plus One would've settled everything, and nothing else was necessary. No 16 teams playoffs. No 8 teams playoffs. No completely turning the entrenched bowl system and the university presidents on their ears.

Nope, just one additional game, matching the winners of two traditional bowl games pitting the four best teams. It never ceases to amaze me how anybody can find fault with this system, especially in light of how impossible it's going to be to ever impliment even more sweeping reforms.

USC-OSU in the Rose. Michigan-Florida in the Sugar. Winners meet each other. NOBODY would have a problem then with seeing Michigan and OSU playing a rematch. Or, if Florida should beat Michigan, NOBODY would have a problem with Michigan NOT getting to play in the title game.

That's as good of a solution as we're going to get, and it's the simplest and most direct solution too.

If Michigan would beat USC in that case, they would re-earn the right to play Ohio State again.

Yep. Hands down. No problem.

I think losing to Ohio State at the end of the year is probably the worst thing to happen to Michigan...not their schedule.

Gee, ya think???

:-)

Yeah, that loss to OSU hurt 'em more than their schedule. I'd say so! If Michigan is 12-0 right now I think we can all agree that they'd be in the title game! LOL!! (But then it'd be OSU who'd be on the outside looking in and they'd have at least an equal beef as Michigan has right now...)

Arkansas, Notre Dame and Nebraska has proven to be a great OOC slate for the Trojans and they won those three games decively...it's that one hiccup against the Beavers that many will use as ammo against USC. You can't have a better loss than a close loss at the #1 team in the nation. Even if Oregon State finishes with 9 or 10 wins, they aren't Ohio State...but no one is right now.

It's who you beat, not who beat you. If it was simply a matter of Quality Losses then Boise St would be in the title game and nobody would say anything. Besides ND, whom they both beat, USC just played too many ranked teams for Michigan to be able to overcome with their lone Quality Win win over Wisconsin.

Michigan and OSU are both in the same quandry USC and ND face: It doesn't matter what else you do 'cause in order to play for the biggest prize you must first beat your main rival. If not, you're out. All four teams face that situation and in this era it's a dictum that's absolute.

I think I'd also extend that situation to include 'Bama and Auburn and UCLA and USC, since both games are always very late in the season. If it weren't for the Big XII's ruination of the Nebraska-OU rivalry I'd include that pair in there as well.

You gotta first beat your main rival, period.

[Van]

There's just no justification for USC, with 10 wins, to jump in the standings over two teams that have both won 11 games.

Okay, that was was just plain stupid, Coods. Throughout the season each team will not necessarily have the same number of games under their belts. That won't be the case across the board until each team has completed their schedule. Even then it still won't hold entirely true because some conferences have a CCG and others don't.

Don't worry, USC isn't in, not yet. They still have to earn that eleventh win, same as Michigan.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

What's hilarious is all the Michigan-backers can do is point to one game.

One...single...game.

You'd think this oh-so illustrious and sacred One Game, they'd have won by 104 points or something. You'd think the beating was so bad, the other team was forced to quit at halftime because all the crying gave them severe cramps. You'd think they won the game by tackling with their cocks and their 3rd string defense.

Nope. None of that. Not only are we NOT talking about a glorious, god-like effort on the field of play...which one would ASSUME to be the case if we're just talking about the strength of one game, but nope, we're not even talking about a freaking WIN! Not even a close win! Nope, we're talking about a LOSS! A loss! That's it? A close loss? To your rival? A team you play every year? A team you're supposed to play tough? That's all you've got? That's why you belong?

Oh yeah, well, I'm convinced.

Fuggin' unreal.

[Shoalzie]

Unless by "many," you mean upper midwest pasty white boys with hard-ons for family members. But I'm pretty sure they don't get a vote.

What the hell? What are out in the playground or something? I think you can make an argument without taking some pointless swipe at me. Makes it harder to take your argument seriously when you resort that crap. Grow up...

Yet honks like you want to hang your hat on a single game. How convenient. Why did they even play the rest of the games?

The best way to compare two teams with the same record is to compare their performances against common opponents and which team their loss(es) were against...I'm not throwing out the entire schedule and rendering it entirely meaningless. The only common opponent between Michigan and USC is Notre Dame. If you take the entire schedule, of course USC has the better strength of schedule. Arkansas, Nebraska and Notre Dame trumps Michigan's three best wins...Notre Dame, Wisconsin and Penn State but you can't ignore the Notre Dame results and who they lost to. Both teams played in mediocre conferences...Florida has both teams beat as far as who plays in the tougher league. The thing that kills Florida, moreso than Michigan, is there OOC schedule is even worse. In the end, there will be two teams from major conferences with one loss sitting on the sideline while another is playing for glass football in Glendale. The best way to obviously stop all of this bickering and contraversy is playoff but I'm not exactly reporting any breaking news with that statement.

[Smackie Chan]

An argument that can be made in favor of USC's #2 ranking is that they have improved at a greater pace relative to other BCS hopefuls as the season has progressed. While it's intuitive that every team should have improved by virtue of gaining experience with each game (although injuries & suspensions can have an impact), USC was expected to be in somewhat of a rebuilding year after having lost many of its key players to graduation and the NFL. One might expect a #2 team to have steamrolled unranked opponents, and certainly to have beaten Oregon St. But since that loss, the Trojans have showed marked improvement, while it's arguable that Michigan played its best game(s) early in the season and has since leveled off. Not saying that this is definitely what has happened, just that it's an argument that can be advanced.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I think you can make an argument without taking some pointless swipe at me.

Can I? Certainly. But wouldn't that make it less fun? Absolutely.

Makes it harder to take your argument seriously when you resort that crap.

And it makes it harder to take your argument seriously when your argument is fucking retarded.

Grow up...

How so? By getting all serious on a message board? That's "growing up?"

Heh heh. Ohhhhkay, sport.

The best way to compare two teams with the same record is to compare their performances against common opponents and which team their loss(es) were against

No, it isn't the best way, douche. I know you want to disagree with reality soooo bad, but the facts are that YOUR opinion of how things should work ... aren't actually the way things work.

Knock it off with the stupid already.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

IMO.

Which means about as much as my post-Thanksgiving ass explosion.

[Van]

No, Mace, the BIG difference is that besides one common opponent who was beaten by roughly the same amount by both USC and Michigan a one loss USC will by season's end own MORE Quality Wins and a much higher S.O.S. rating than Michigan. Also, USC will have beaten their main rival in the one game (two, in USC's case) they HAD to win in order to advance.

USC points to Quality Wins as their argument. Michigan must resort to pointing to a loss in their rivalry game as their argument. Michigan loses.

Btw, USC doesn't just play a "little tougher non-conference schedule" than Michigan. Ball St, Central Michigan and Vandy? Arkansas, Nebraska and ND? That's not a "little tougher". No contest. Michigan loses.

Besides, the Big 10 wasn't any better than the Pac 10 this year, with the lone exception of Ohio St. Michigan lost that one. That leaves only Wisconsin in the Big 10, and on Michigan's list of significant wins. No contest. Michigan loses.

Maybe they'll learn their lesson and schedule a little better next time, eh? Or, lacking that, maybe they'll at least go ahead and win their rivalry game. They controlled both those things and they failed in both those things. So, nope, they deserve no sympathy for their current plight.

[M Club]

What's hilarious is all the Michigan-backers can do is point to one game.

One...single...game.

is your stupidity regarding this matter intentional? you've left out the other 11 wins that make us part of this debate. half the sec teams have just as many quality wins as umich, but they also have more than the one loss required to be part of this discussion.

besides, if you were honest about his debate and not an over-reactive umich hater, you'd have known all the talk about a umich/osu rematch would blown over once usc man-handled nd. the media has a short memory, and any chance umich had at bcs #2 would live only as long as the hype surrounding the osu game did. witness the ap poll, which moved usc ahead of michigan by virtue of a less impressive win over nd than michigan had.

i realise that you live in the aa area and have to deal with a lot of inbred moron talk, but most reasonable umich fans concede that usc has the better claim to osu than we do. but we are in the discussion, so we will point out the factors that favor us over usc; namely, a less detrimental loss and a more impressive win over a common opponent.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

The fact that he possesses very little real knowledge of the game is irrelevant, I guess.

Uh huh. Yet the people who actually run the system agree with me.

Yep, all those people/voters out there who coach the game, and compile stats for a living are somehow beneath you and your knowledge of the game.

Do you realize how stupid you sound?

Look, you irrelevant pile of moss, stick to waxing about your co-ed softball team and your son's report cards.

If you can come up with a name other than the "Big O" who takes anything you type even remotely deserving of a well thought-out response, then I just might reward you with such.

Until then, keep pounding those Levitras, and maybe, just maybe, one day you'll have enough accuracy to slap your cock on the right keys, warranting a real, actual response.

[M Club]

Also, USC will have beaten their main rival in the one game (two, in USC's case) they HAD to win in order to advance.

splitting hairs, but umich has three main rivals, the biggest of which depends on who yr talking to and which of the three has had the upper hand.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

is your stupidity regarding this matter intentional? you've left out the other 11 wins that make us part of this debate.

No, I haven't. Michigan fan has. That's my point. The bulk of them are using the OSU loss as the determining factor as to why they belong. I have read and heard very little about wins over ND, or even Wisconsin.

But as you say, SC beat ND, so all this talk is over now.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I have no way to prove it and you have no way to prove otherwise.

Well, good thing nobody needs to make a case to prove otherwise. The results on the field, from September to December are the "proof" the system has elected to use. And since USC's results are/will be more impressive than Michigan's in the eyes of the people who do this stuff for a living, well, that's what we're using as "proof" to determine who's the 2nd best team.

And once again, what you think means absolutely nothing.

Deal with it.

[Mississippi Neck]

Michigan loses by 3 to Ohio State, at Ohio State, and is out. USC loses to Oregon State, OREGON STATE, and makes it.

Tough shit.

Tell 'em to go beef up their OOC schedule.

It finally came back to bite them in the ass.

Yea, cant disagree with that. Playing Ball State was a bad idea. They probably wanted a breather before O State. And their conf schedule is no slouch.

I'm impressed by both Mich and USC equally in their wins. Moreso Michigan in their loss than USC. Whatever, I dont think it will matter in the end. And as someone who sees a lot of SEC football...Florida's not close to matching with O State. Nor LSU.

[Mississippi Neck]

apparently there's a bit of history here Im not aware of...

[Van]

M Club, Michigan's win over ND wasn't markedly more impressive than USC's win over ND.

A 26 point win vs a 20 point win? That's not exactly an earth shattering difference. Michigan will claim that their win was in South Bend and USC will counter that their win came in a rivalry game late in the season when ND had their shit together and they were on a roll and playing for big stakes.

Both arguments have merit. Whatever. 47-21 vs 44-24 is the bottom line. However one slices it it's pretty much a wash.

Also, I get the common sense argument that losing to Oregon St is more of a detrimental loss than losing to Ohio St. Obviously. At least, on the surface...

Thing is, was it really, in this instance? USC's entire season wasn't predicated on the Oregon St game. That's also not a rivalry game for USC; nor was it their final game of the season. Michigan on the other hand knew they HAD to have that Ohio St game. They had little else on their side in terms of an argument and it's their annual make-or-break-their-season rivalry game. USC didn't have to have the Oregon St game since they have such a stronger S.O.S. than Michigan and they still had their two rivalry games ahead of them.

So, yeah, I'm pretty damn certain that the Ohio St loss was in fact a more detrimental loss for Michigan than the Oregon St loss was for USC. All the polls, human or otherwise, unanimously support this seemingly incongruous point.

[Mississippi Neck]

Also, I get the common sense argument that losing to Oregon St is more of a detrimental loss than losing to Ohio St. Obviously. At least, on the surface...

Thing is, is it really? USC's entire season wasn't predicated on the Oregon St game. That's also not a rivalry game for USC; nor was it their final game of the season. Michigan on the other hand knew they HAD to have that Ohio St game. They had little else on their side in terms of an argument and it's their annual make-or-break-their-season rivalry game. USC didn't have to have the Oregon St game since they have such a stronger S.O.S. than Michigan and they still had their two rivalry games ahead of them.

So, yeah, I'm pretty damn certain that the Ohio St loss was in fact a more detrimental loss for Michigan than the Oregon St loss was for USC. All the polls, human or otherwise, unanimously support this seemingly incongruous point.

Van,

Your argument is a bit ackbasswards. So...losing to a less respected (and weaker opponent) can actually be better? Nah, I dont think so. USC's strength of schedule in comparison to Mich is a valid argument.

[M Club]

is your stupidity regarding this matter intentional? you've left out the other 11 wins that make us part of this debate.

No, I haven't. Michigan fan has. That's my point. The bulk of them are using the OSU loss as the determining factor as to why they belong. I have read and heard very little about wins over ND, or even Wisconsin.

But as you say, SC beat ND, so all this talk is over now.

11 wins is a premise that's already been established. do you require constant reminder? the point of this argument is to point out the differences that make you look better than the other team.