ND fans,

[PSUFAN]

If you were to join a conference, which would you prefer it to be?

[Killian]

Personally, the Big East. They're already members in everything else and ND would still be able to play enough OOC games to suit them. And fuck the Big 10, you had your chance and you said no.

[Van]

The MAC! Duh!!

-The BCS

[MuchoBulls]

Personally, the Big East.

Hope that day comes at some point

[Killian]

Personally, the Big East.

Hope that day comes at some point

Unless the NCAA/BCS/current horseshit system at the time specifically writes that teams have to come from a major conference to have a shot at the NC, I doubt it will.

[RadioFan]

The MAC! Duh!!

-The BCS

Rack.

[Sky]

And fuck the Big 10, you had your chance and you said no.

Well you know, winning that commander and chief trophy along with the big wins over Stanford and UNC really make a nice resume. And lets see, with your new coach you have gotten spanked by UM and tOSU so who lost out here?

[Terry in Crapchester]

Personally, the Big East. They're already members in everything else and ND would still be able to play enough OOC games to suit them. And fuck the Big 10, you had your chance and you said no.

http://www.mndaily.com/daily/1999/02/08/sports/irish/

Wrong. Fuck Notre Dame.

Go back a little farther. http://www.catholichistory.net/Spotligh ... otball.htm

I echo Killian's sentiments, btw, although I don't think we'll ever willingly join a conference (but never say never). I would prefer to remain independent.

[Jimmy Medalions]

Obviously the invitation in 1924 to join "what had become the big ten" is more relevant here.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Obviously the invitation in 1924 to join "what had become the big ten" is more relevant here.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think that's relevant to the way ND's fanbase sees the Big Ten. And most of ND's fans are far more hostile to the Big Ten than Killian is, or I am.

[Shoalzie]

Personally, the Big East.

That would make the most sense since you're in there for everything else...except for hockey. The Big East oughta just add the 4 independents and make a 12 team conference and go to two 6 team divisions like most of the other major conferences. The Big Ten needs to find a 12th team and go to the two division system and adopt a conference title game since they'll never go with a full round robin...and hopefully they'll change their name too. Calling themselves the Big Ten with 11 teams has gone on long enough...I got their new name ready to go: Ohio State and Tressel's 11 Stepchildren.

[L45B]

I got their new name ready to go: Ohio State and Tressel's 11 Stepchildren.

Pretty slick.

[Shoalzie]

I got their new name ready to go: Ohio State and Tressel's 11 Stepchildren.

Pretty slick.

It's true...painfully true.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Personally, the Big East.

That would make the most sense since you're in there for everything else...except for hockey.

Also lacrosse and fencing.

The Big East oughta just add the 4 independents and make a 12 team conference and go to two 6 team divisions like most of the other major conferences. The Big Ten needs to find a 12th team and go to the two division system and adopt a conference title game since they'll never go with a full round robin...and hopefully they'll change their name too.

That'll never happen. My predictions on what really will happen:

• Temple joins the MAC as a football-only member beginning in '07.
• Army, Navy and ND all remain independent.
• The Big East adds one more team, but not for another four years or so. Central Florida is the most likely possibility. They won't expand beyond nine unless ND is part of the deal.
• The Big Ten won't expand. They won't be able to get ND, and they have too much of a love-hate relationship with ND to add anyone else.

[BlindRef]

I got their new name ready to go: Ohio State and Tressel's 11 Stepchildren.

Pretty slick.

It's true...painfully true.

I hate you shoalzie

[Van]

At least for football ND belongs in the Big 10/11 and nowhere else. Cherry picking in the Big East would just be a joke. In terms of geography, talent levels, historical significance and natural rivalries ND is a natural for the Big 10. They have no business playing the likes of Connecticut, WVU, Louisville and Rutgers. They have all sorts of business playing Indiana, the Michigan schools, Illinois, the Ohio schools and even Penn State. ND's inclusion in the Big 10 also gives 'em a nice round number of twelve teams and the immediate need for a new name for their conference.

ND joining the Big 10 would give them four major pedigree football programs, to surpass the Big XII's three, the ACC's three or four (if we're willing to include either Va Tech or Clemson in that definition) and they'd at least close the gap relative to the SEC's, what, six? ('Bama, Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida)

Similar to the adoption of Plus One this is a total no-brainer, so we won't get it. ND's excuses for not doing it are just horrible and nobody should buy 'em any longer; sorta reminiscent of the BCS in general, come to think of it.

[Shoalzie]

Pretty slick.

It's true...painfully true.

I hate you shoalzie

Until Michigan beats them again, they own us...simple as that.

[Killian]

Van,

Until you are familiar with ND's history as to why they remain independent and why they have such a strong stance against joining the Big 10, don't try to talk about ND's "excuses".

You come across as very uninformed, to say the least.

[RadioFan]

They have no business playing the likes of Connecticut, WVU, Louisville and Rutgers.

This year, they would have. :twisted:

[Van]

Van,

Until you are familiar with ND's history as to why they remain independent and why they have such a strong stance against joining the Big 10, don't try to talk about ND's "excuses".

You come across as very uninformed, to say the least.

Killian, I've had you and especially Terry detailing ND's reasons to us here for years now, ad nauseum. I'm not "uninformed". I doubt that any long timer here could remain "uninformed" at this point. I simply reject the reasons given. They're self serving excuses and rationalizations, and nothing else.

ND's reasons are entirely down to the fact that since CF and the networks are willing to treat them as special and give them preferential treatment ND's going to continue to choose to be treated as special and enjoy their preferential treatment. They could easily choose to quit sticking out like a sore thumb. They could choose to end their affiliation with the service academies. They've long since paid back their debt there. They could choose to give up their automatic BCS bowl inclusion stips and their automatic BCS money. They could choose to join a conference. The Big 10 or the Big East would work with them to make it happen and to make the transition as comfortable as possible for them.

They choose not to do any of these things, simply because they don't have to do any of these things. They've got too sweet of a deal right now, and a much lower risk of missing out on a BCS bowl. They've got unique privileges and they recognize this and they're not about to give 'em up. Any other explanation is a disingenuous one, Killian.

[WolverineSteve]

Bottom line...ND wins games as an Indie, which by the way was cool up until the 70's/early 80's. There used to be enough indies to make a deece schedule. MSU, Miami(FL), Lousville, Arizona,Rutgers,Pitt,FSU,WVU,Cuse, PSU, the armed forces, and many other good athletic programs which have since seen the light and joined conferences.

It's true. ND and it's representation here have long argued for its indie status in football. Fuck ND, and fuck any conference that would accept any school as a part-timer. As long as the pussy Big East allows ND to include itself in some sports yet remain indie in football, why should ND change. They're having their cake and woofing it too. Independents ran their course sometime during JoPa's fertile years. Get with the times bitches. It's not like your program has been worth a shit in a decade and a half. Of course being as irrelivant as you have and still raking the bucks is why you'll never have the sack to join a conference. It's all about the money...which makes you whores. That and annual 3rd and 4th place finishes in the Big 10 would render you less relevant than the decade plus bowl game losing steak has.

Get the fuck over yourselves ND. Your act is tired.

[campinfool]

With 8 straight bowl losses, I'm not sure which conference would want them.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Van,

Until you are familiar with ND's history as to why they remain independent and why they have such a strong stance against joining the Big 10, don't try to talk about ND's "excuses".

You come across as very uninformed, to say the least.

Killian, I've had you and especially Terry detailing ND's reasons to us here for years now, ad nauseum. I'm not "uninformed". I doubt that any long timer here could remain "uninformed" at this point. I simply reject the reasons given. They're self serving excuses and rationalizations, and nothing else.

Bottom line: if ND had not been an independent, ND-USC never would have come to be, or at a minimum, certainly never would have come to be what it is today. Period, end of discussion.

There's no reason for ND to join the Big Ten in light of the history between ND and the Big Ten.

ND's reasons are entirely down to the fact that since CF and the networks are willing to treat them as special and give them preferential treatment ND's going to continue to choose to be treated as special and enjoy their preferential treatment. They could easily choose to quit sticking out like a sore thumb.

It was the rest of college football that changed, not ND.

They could choose to end their affiliation with the service academies. They've long since paid back their debt there.

The only "affiliation" ND has with any service academy is with Navy. Air Force is still an occasional opponent, but this year's matchup was the first since '02. We dropped them as an annual opponent in the mid-90's. Army long since ceased to be an annual opponent. This year's matchup was the first since '98, and that was the 12th game on our schedule this year (in light of your complaints that so many schools added a 1-AA opponent for their 12th game this year, you shouldn't be complaining about Army).

I'll grant you that an argument can be made that we've repaid our debt to Navy, but ND's administration continues to disagree. The rivalry may end someday, but it will end on Navy's terms, not ours.

They could choose to give up their automatic BCS bowl inclusion stips and their automatic BCS money.

The Top 8 rule is basically a trade-off for the fact that ND can't get an automatic bid as a conference champion, and in that regard, it's actually more restrictive than winning a conference (do I have to go back and list the conference champions who didn't finish in the Top 8?).

They could choose to join a conference. The Big 10 or the Big East would work with them to make it happen and to make the transition as comfortable as possible for them.

If ND were to join the Big Ten, the Big Ten would force ND to give up its TV contract, which could subject ND to liability to NBC in the millions (not that anybody here other than the ND fans actually cares about that, I know). I would estimate that ND's NBC contract comprises about 4% of nationally televised games per year (that's counting each of ABC's regional simulcasts as one national telecast). Why would any fan of college football want that? Even if you have no desire to see ND, somebody else does, or perhaps ND's NBC games open up the possibility of ABC televising someone else, as opposed to ND who might otherwise be on their schedule.

Not to mention, of course, that every team who plays ND at ND receives a share of the NBC revenue. Thus, the NBC contract benefits the team you root for.

I'm sure the Big East would allow ND to retain its TV contract, and might even consider adding Navy as a football-only member so that ND wouldn't have to burn an OOC game to continue that series. But let's face it, if ND were to join the Big East, they'd come in for an entirely new round of criticism on this board.

They choose not to do any of these things, simply because they don't have to do any of these things. They've got too sweet of a deal right now, and a much lower risk of missing out on a BCS bowl.

Huh? The path of least resistance to the BCS, from ND's standpoint, would be as a member of the Big East. You've said as much on this board yourself.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Going back to 88's post, here's another link reporting the same story back in '99: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/nca ... ball/15565

I'm not posting that as a glass dick, but because of one thing reported in that article that was not reported in the article 88 linked:

According to the Associated Press, the prospect of joining the Big Ten was overwhelmingly opposed by the students and administration of Notre Dame. Students had allegedly started chanting "No Big Ten" during Irish basketball games, and Charles Lennon, director of the school's alumni association, estimated 99.5 per cent of his members were against changing the school's unique "brand name" as an independent university.

I either missed that part when the story actually broke, or have forgotten it since. I'm betting on the former, since I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have forgotten that number within that context.

99.5%. Wow ....... just ....... WOW! To put that in perspective, you'd be hard-pressed to get 99.5% of ND's alumni to agree on the time of day. And it's all but impossible to get 99.5% to agree on anything related to the football program, except, apparently, that they want ND to continue as an independent.

I'm not sure why any conference would even want us as a member, when our alumni base is so overwhelmingly opposed to conference membership in general, and to Big Ten membership in particular.

[Killian]

Well hell Van, if you're not uninformed, why don't you tell us whey ND wants to remain independent. Tell us about ND's history with the Big 10. Starting with their exclusion of ND from joining the conference, through the periods where ND helped other schools join the conference, and finishing with why ND gave the collective middle finger to the Big 10 in '99.

Go ahead and tell us why, as Terry pointed out, 99.5% of the alumni want ND to remain independent and not become a regionalized team.

And ND's debt will never be repaid to Navy. That's like saying to someone that saved your life, "Okay, we're good now". No, you would continue to go out of your way to respect that person and help them any way you possibly could.

If you want to start asking ND to give up things like the automatic BCS birth, go ahead and ask all other teams from non-BCS conferences to give up their automatic births as well. It's a two way street and you can't give a special consideration to some teams and not others.

Everyone bitches that ND should join a conference, yet there hasn't been a compelling argument on these board or any others, as to why they should join. ND is one of the few D1 teams that turn a profit, their schedule is always competitive, and they are eligible, just as any other team, to compete in the BCS and potentially for the national championship. If any other D1 team could have pulled off what ND did, they would have in a heart beat.

[Terry in Crapchester]

A few other points I haven't mentioned so far . . .

First, I'm somewhat surprised that this topic is thrown around as freely as it is on this board, and people don't expect the ND fans to want continued independence. I daresay that if someone were to posit on this board that Oklahoma should leave the Big XII, the OU contingency would be out in full force to refute that argument. Same for Michigan or Ohio State and the Big Ten, or for USC and the Pac-10, or any of a number of other schools for that matter. Independence is every much as important to ND's tradition, if not moreso, than is the conference affiliation of the other schools to their traditions.

Second, it's not as though ND takes all sorts of liberties with its schedule. We have eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents (we don't play them all every year, but we play all of them far more often than not). We have almost as much continuity in our schedule as does just about any team playing in a conference, although the permanent/semi-permanent rivals do occasionally change. And even though most of those teams play in a conference, most of them still consider ND one of the most important, if not the most important, game on their schedule. Here's where I'd rank ND in terms of importance to the eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents on our schedule:

BC: First, without a doubt.
Michigan: Second, behind Ohio State but ahead of Michigan State (sorry, Babs).
Michigan State: Second, behind only Michigan.
Navy: Second, or possibly third, behind Army and possibly Air Force.
Pittsburgh: Second, behind West Virginia, based on their current schedule (we'll drop to third if they ever resume with Penn State).
Purdue: First, although we'd probably fall to second if Indiana ever becomes able to field a consistently decent team.
Stanford: This is the toughest one to gauge. They're one of the two new kids on the block, and they haven't taken to this game the way Fredo fan has. Cal is definitely first, we could be as high as second or as low as fourth (behind UCLA and USC).
USC: First (sorry, UCLA).

That means that, in most years, we have three teams on our schedule who consider us the most important game on their schedule. There isn't another team in the country that can make that claim. We have a minimum of six opponents that consider us no less than the second most important game on their schedule. Only a team with a history of conference domination, such as USC, could make that claim besides us.

As to the Big Ten, I suspect that a CCG is not nearly as important to them as most on this board suppose. If it were, their, how shall I say, deliberate pace in pursuing a twelfth team is puzzling, to say the least. I suspect they're more interested in getting membership right than in adding a 12th team merely for the purpose of a CCG. Otherwise, all they would really need would be a warm body, and there are more than enough of those in the MAC available for a raid from the Big Ten.

[Goober McTuber]

Van,

Until you are familiar with ND's history as to why they remain independent and why they have such a strong stance against joining the Big 10, don't try to talk about ND's "excuses".

You come across as very uninformed, to say the least.

Killian, I've had you and especially Terry detailing ND's reasons to us here for years now, ad nauseum. I'm not "uninformed". I doubt that any long timer here could remain "uninformed" at this point. I simply reject the reasons given. They're self serving excuses and rationalizations, and nothing else.

Kind of like a lot of your SOS arguments.

Second, it's not as though ND takes all sorts of liberties with its schedule. We have eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents (we don't play them all every year, but we play all of them far more often than not). We have almost as much continuity in our schedule as does just about any team playing in a conference, although the permanent/semi-permanent rivals do occasionally change. And even though most of those teams play in a conference, most of them still consider ND one of the most important, if not the most important, game on their schedule. Here's where I'd rank ND in terms of importance to the eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents on our schedule:

BC: First, without a doubt.
Michigan: Second, behind Ohio State but ahead of Michigan State (sorry, Babs).
Michigan State: Second, behind only Michigan.
Navy: Second, or possibly third, behind Army and possibly Air Force.
Pittsburgh: Second, behind West Virginia, based on their current schedule (we'll drop to third if they ever resume with Penn State).
Purdue: First, although we'd probably fall to second if Indiana ever becomes able to field a consistently decent team.
Stanford: This is the toughest one to gauge. They're one of the two new kids on the block, and they haven't taken to this game the way Fredo fan has. Cal is definitely first, we could be as high as second or as low as fourth (behind UCLA and USC).
USC: First (sorry, UCLA).

That means that, in most years, we have three teams on our schedule who consider us the most important game on their schedule. There isn't another team in the country that can make that claim.

Utter bullshit.

Sincerely,

Wisconsin's OOC schedule.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Second, it's not as though ND takes all sorts of liberties with its schedule. We have eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents (we don't play them all every year, but we play all of them far more often than not). We have almost as much continuity in our schedule as does just about any team playing in a conference, although the permanent/semi-permanent rivals do occasionally change. And even though most of those teams play in a conference, most of them still consider ND one of the most important, if not the most important, game on their schedule. Here's where I'd rank ND in terms of importance to the eight permanent/semi-permanent opponents on our schedule:

BC: First, without a doubt.
Michigan: Second, behind Ohio State but ahead of Michigan State (sorry, Babs).
Michigan State: Second, behind only Michigan.
Navy: Second, or possibly third, behind Army and possibly Air Force.
Pittsburgh: Second, behind West Virginia, based on their current schedule (we'll drop to third if they ever resume with Penn State).
Purdue: First, although we'd probably fall to second if Indiana ever becomes able to field a consistently decent team.
Stanford: This is the toughest one to gauge. They're one of the two new kids on the block, and they haven't taken to this game the way Fredo fan has. Cal is definitely first, we could be as high as second or as low as fourth (behind UCLA and USC).
USC: First (sorry, UCLA).

That means that, in most years, we have three teams on our schedule who consider us the most important game on their schedule. There isn't another team in the country that can make that claim.

Utter bullshit.

Sincerely,

Wisconsin's OOC schedule.

Maybe I should qualify that statement. ND is the only team with three teams on its schedule who consider ND their most important game and who actually have a shot at winning that game. Happy now?

Actually, upon further review I should include Texas (Oklahoma, aTm and Taco Tech) in that category as well. I omitted Baylor because they don't have a legitimate chance of beating Texas.

[Terry in Crapchester]

That means that, in most years, we have three teams on our schedule who consider us the most important game on their schedule.

If you use the definition of "most" that means "anything more than half" then I'd say Oklahoma has the same thing with Texas, Oklahoma State, and Nebraska.

edit: I see you had the same thought, just used different teams.

A&M's most important game is T+1.
Taco Tech's most important game is A&M.

My bad if I missed Oklahoma, although I wouldn't think you'd play Nebraska, under the current Big XII makeup, more than half of the time.

[Terry in Crapchester]

It's almost mathematically certain that OU will play Nebraska more than half of the time factoring the statistical likelihood of the two teams meeting in the conference championship game now and then.

Okay, point taken. It looks like the Big XII schedule gives you two on, two off vs. Nebraska. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... eamid=2184

[Terry in Crapchester]

Van, I'm still having a little trouble with your definition of "cherry-picking." How, exactly, would a school who has spent over a decade in a conference for most sports other than football be "cherry-picking" if they were to join that school for football as well?

Sorry to break it to you, but not every school's conference affiliation is dictated solely by the map. If you look at a map, BC belongs in the Big East, not the ACC. Penn State also belongs in the Big East on the map, not the Big Ten (Penn State had a pre-existing negative relationship with the Big East, similar to ND and the Big Ten, although of a much shorter duration.)

And I'm thoroughly confused by the fact that somebody who holds the ND-USC rivalry in as high esteem as you do fails to see or consider the damage that could come to that rivalry if ND were to join the Big Ten. It's one thing for SoCalTrjn to make this argument, since I'm sure he doesn't give a rat's ass about this rivalry in the long term. But you, it would appear, are different. At least some of the rationale for continuing the rivalry on an annual basis would cease to exist. Notre Dame plays USC (and other schools) on an annual basis because those games are, essentially, their "conference schedule", for lack of a better term. If you look around the country, you'll notice that annual OOC matchups that don't involve either ND, one of the service academies, or an in-state rivalry involving teams who play in different conferences (such as Florida-Florida State, Clemson-South Carolina, Iowa-Iowa State or Colorado-Colorado State, e.g.) are a dying breed. If ND were to join a conference, ND's "conference schedule" would become -- well, it's conference schedule. So there's less rationale for playing USC on an annual basis, right there.

Another problem is the Rose Bowl. Now obviously, ND and USC wouldn't match up in the Rose Bowl annually if ND were to join the Big Ten, but in most years that would appear to be at least a possibility entering the season. I'm not sure that the Rose Bowl committee would exactly be thrilled about a potential Rose Bowl preview being played in every regular season; in fact, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't like it.

No rivalry is sacrosanct once you talk about changing conference alignments. We've already lost a number of them to the inexorable march toward superconferences. Hell, the Big 12 wasn't even able to save Nebraska-Oklahoma, and both of those schools play in the Big 12. Force ND into a conference, particularly the Big 10, and all bets on the future of the ND-USC rivalry, at least in its present state, are off. At a minimum, given the Big 10's position on scheduling OOC games in the month of September, it would appear that ND-USC, if it were to survive, would be forced into the month of September, and you and I both agree that it would lose something in translation in that event.

The North-South divisional alignment favored by TPTB in the Big Ten (read: Michigan and Ohio State) would be nothing short of a disaster in the making for ND. ND would be forced into annual matchups with Wisconsin (last played in 1964) and Minnesota (last played in 1938), neither of which appears to be a rivalry that ND's fanbase would embrace. To make it worse, ND would be locked out of an annual matchup with at least either Purdue or Penn State. Purdue has been a continuous matchup with ND as long as USC has, and ND would want that rivalry to continue on an annual basis if ND joined the Big Ten. Penn State would also be a necessity to play annually, in that Penn State is the only Big Ten team that plays in the northeast, and ND actually has a larger fanbase living in the northeast than in the midwest, according to a 2001 Harris poll. There was talk of a compromise in that the Big Ten would expand to 14 teams rather than 12, adding Pitt and Syracuse in addition to ND. But there are drawbacks to both sides in that approach: TPTB in the Big Ten would get their favored divisional alignment, but would have to deal with the headaches of a 14-team conference, which does not work as well as does a 12-team conference. ND would get a northeastern team in its division, but that team (Syracuse) would be the least compelling northeastern rival for ND, at least in football. Penn State has JoePa and the tradition of Penn State. Pitt has a traditional long-standing rivalry with ND. Syracuse has neither. And even then, the Big Ten still would have to deal with the realities of getting Pitt and Syracuse to join the Big Ten after they pledged to make a go of it with the Big East. That pledge might not be enforceable in a court of law, but the $5 million exit fee most certainly is.

The benefits that the Big Ten would receive from getting ND as a member are rightfully not entering into the decision-making process from ND's standpoint. And for that matter, the Big East probably would get even more significant benefits from having ND as a member. ND by itself couldn't give the Big East a CCG, of course, but each conference is up for review as to its automatic BCS bid after next season. ND in the Big East would all but guarantee that the Big East would retain its automatic bid, while the Big Ten has few if any worries in that regard with or without ND.

The students who chanted "no Big Ten" had it right, at least as far as ND was concerned.

[Van]

Terry, there's no reason ND-USC need be affected by ND joining a conference. None. ND will still need at least a couple/few OOC games and ND could easily make the preservation of USC-ND one of their cconditions before they'll join that conference. Nobody's going to fight them on that one.

[OUMO]

It has been a long time, and my facts might be off a little but..

I don't think ND fan wants to drag OU fan into independence of ND because if my memory serves me right, OU and another school (Bama?) sued the NCAA for telvision rights and ND stood by along with Nebraska and watched because they did not want to take the heat, although they gave hidden support.

So OU fan has nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned, we already helped ND with that fat TV shcedule that keeps your crappy team on NBC.

Of course I could be wrong. :D

[King Crimson]

It has been a long time, and my facts might be off a little but..

I don't think ND fan wants to drag OU fan into independence of ND because if my memory serves me right, OU and another school (Bama?) sued the NCAA for telvision rights and ND stood by along with Nebraska and watched because they did not want to take the heat, although they gave hidden support.

So OU fan has nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned, we already helped ND with that fat TV shcedule that keeps your crappy team on NBC.

Of course I could be wrong. :D

it was OU and Georgia. they sued the NCAA under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and won in the Supreme Court in the mid 80's.....to negotiate their own TV rights. there's an EXCELLENT article about it somewhere on the net....but i've lost the link.

the original lawyers who advanced the suit were Norman attorneys, and the origin of the suit is reportedly to have been hatched as a bet over drinks and prime rib at Indian Hills Steakhouse just north of Norman on I-35.

[Terry in Crapchester]

It has been a long time, and my facts might be off a little but..

I don't think ND fan wants to drag OU fan into independence of ND because if my memory serves me right, OU and another school (Bama?) sued the NCAA for telvision rights and ND stood by along with Nebraska and watched because they did not want to take the heat, although they gave hidden support.

So OU fan has nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned, we already helped ND with that fat TV shcedule that keeps your crappy team on NBC.

Of course I could be wrong. :D

Not only that, but OU was offered the NBC contract before Notre Dame was and turned it down because NBC made dropping out of the Big 8 a condition of the contract.

OU made its decision based on what it deemed to be best for OU. I'm quite sure that they didn't make their decision based on the impact it would have on Iowa State's or Kansas' program.

And ND already was an independent, so there was no significant change they needed to make to take on the NBC deal. People in here seem to take the opinion that ND used to be/rightfully is a member of the Big Ten, but that's not the case.

That's OK, though. Notre Dame has a bit of a tradition of gravy-training OU stuff.

ND started looking for a TV deal as soon as Penn State left for the Big Ten. The administration saw the writing on the wall and figured that without the additional revenue of a TV deal, ND would be unable to go it alone from a financial standpoint and would be forced into a conference. The TV deal was thus a means to an end (i.e., continued independence), not an end in and of itself. And if ND had been unable to get the deal done with NBC, they would have sought out someone else. But imho, they never would have sought the TV deal in the first place but for the push on the part of several conferences for expansion in the early 90's.

And fwiw, ND's NBC deal did not come without criticism. Many at ND thought the administration was selling out the football program through it. But I think hindsight proved the administration right on that particular point.

Terry, there's no reason ND-USC need be affected by ND joining a conference. None. ND will still need at least a couple/few OOC games and ND could easily make the preservation of USC-ND one of their cconditions before they'll join that conference. Nobody's going to fight them on that one.

The point is that ND might not want to do it. As I mentioned before, part of the reason for ND to continue to play USC right now is that USC is part of what is essentially ND's "conference schedule." As I pointed out, that, of course, would change should ND join a conference.

You'll undoubtedly point out that other teams, including USC, carry an annual OOC game on their schedule. That's true, but there are other games in contention with USC for that honor, particularly if ND joins the Big Ten. Navy comes to mind as part of the debt repayment, and also as a semi-annual matchup in the northeast for ND's northeastern fanbase. For the latter reason, Pitt could be in the mix as well (although an annual matchup between ND and Pitt could pose problems between ND and Penn State, yet another drawback to ND joining the Big Ten) if ND doesn't get an annual conference matchup with Penn State. I don't think ND would want annual OOC matchups vs. Navy, Pitt and USC, which would leave them only one open date per season. And there's also the Rose Bowl situation I brought up earlier. So if ND were to join the Big Ten, one has to concede at least a strong possibility that ND-USC would cease to exist, or at least cease to exist on an annual basis. And I think it's unavoidable that the game would move to September if it did continue.

And speaking of cherry-picking, it seems to me that you're the one cherry-picking here, Van. You want to dump one of ND's traditions that you don't like (independence) and continue one of ND's traditions that you do like (USC rivalry). I don't think ND's fanbase sees it the same way you do.

[Van]

Of course they don't. They have such a uniquely sweet deal right now so why would they want to risk any of it?

Also, don't even begin to compare Navy and Pitt with USC, especially Pitt. If ND keeps the Navy game going then they've covered their "northeast obligation" and their "obligation obligation". Pitt wouldn't/doesn't matter. The only reason ND might ever choose to bail on USC-ND is the obvious one: too risky. Too good of an OOC opponent, now that ND is in a conference.

Basically, what you're saying is ND might choose to become WVU. Great. Path Of Least Resistance U. That'd just be great.

Nah. ND won't stop being ND if they join a conference. They're not going to check their 'nads at the door just because they finally caught up with the times and joined the Big 10. (Why they ever joined the Big East in those other sports instead of what should've been the no brainer decision to join the Big 10, hoooo....) Also, ND has plenty of fans out west too. If the Pitt game is important to ND's fans in the northeast then how important is the USC game to ND's fans not just out west, but all over the country? Then there's the recruiting angle. I'm pretty sure ND would always like to keep a fishing pole in California waters and USC-ND insures that ND remains in the minds of California recruits.

Pretty sure that keeping the California connection intact is at least as important to ND as keeping the northeast connection intact.

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain the USC-ND game. They're ND. USC-ND is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

[Goober McTuber]

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain the USC-ND game. They're ND. Beating USC more often than not is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

FTFY.

[Sky]

OK, I am going to call bullshit here. While Terry makes some good points lets not pretend the majority of teams did not make some sacrafices when they joined a conference. It comes down to one thing: MONEY.

While ND would love to keep playing SC, Navy, Pitt, etc...if the money isn't there they will change their tune real quick. You can cite your independence and history and blah blah blah but we all know the bottom line in 99% of every athletic department is the dollar. W/o a TV contract ND would be real happy to play in the the BigEast or Big10.

[indyfrisco]

^^^ DINGDINGDING ^^^

Bad thing is, ND will have to suck shit for 10+ years for NBC to drop their asses. WIth the schedule they generally play, that ain't gonna happen. A 6 loss year every now and again, but shittiness will not be sustained for 10 years resulting in them keeping their TV deal as well as keeping 100% of any dime they make from a bowl appearance, especially the big bucks from a BCS bowl.

[Van]

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain the USC-ND game. They're ND. Beating USC more often than not is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

FTFY.

Exactly. A large part of the tradition built by ND has to do with their success against USC. Beating Pitt will never quite mean as much, will it?