ND fans,

[Sky]

^^^ DINGDINGDING ^^^

Bad thing is, ND will have to suck shit for 10+ years for NBC to drop their asses. WIth the schedule they generally play, that ain't gonna happen. A 6 loss year every now and again, but shittiness will not be sustained for 10 years resulting in them keeping their TV deal as well as keeping 100% of any dime they make from a bowl appearance, especially the big bucks from a BCS bowl.

That's what I was thinking. The only big game Weiss has won in the last two years is UM in '05. But when you have Navy, Syracuse, Stanford, Air Force, North Carolina, Purdue, etc. you are guaranteed enough wins to keep a contract.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Of course they don't. They have such a uniquely sweet deal right now so why would they want to risk any of it?

Also, don't even begin to compare Navy and Pitt with USC, especially Pitt. If ND keeps the Navy game going then they've covered their "northeast obligation" and their "obligation obligation". Pitt wouldn't/doesn't matter.

Pitt ranks in the Top 5 in terms of all-time games vs. ND. Only Navy, Purdue, USC and Michigan State have played ND more often. The "northeast obligation" would entail playing a game in the northeast every year. Hence, the reasoning for having both on the schedule. Each year you play one at home and the other on the road (or at a neutral field, in Navy's case).

ND won't stop being ND if they join a conference. They're not going to check their 'nads at the door just because they finally caught up with the times and joined the Big 10. (Why they ever joined the Big East in those other sports instead of what should've been the no brainer decision to join the Big 10, hoooo....)

ND joined the Big East because the Big East was willing to take their other sports and allow them to remain independent in football. ND pitched a similar proposal to the Big Ten, who wanted no part of that. In fairness, the Big East has always existed as a hybrid conference, at least since they started playing football.

Also, ND has plenty of fans out west too. If the Pitt game is important to ND's fans in the northeast then how important is the USC game to ND's fans not just out west, but all over the country? Then there's the recruiting angle. I'm pretty sure ND would always like to keep a fishing pole in California waters and USC-ND insures that ND remains in the minds of California recruits.

Pretty sure that keeping the California connection intact is at least as important to ND as keeping the northeast connection intact.

Since you brought it up . . .

As you are aware, ND plays a game out west every year as well. The alternate opponent to USC in that regard is Stanford. Of course, the annual game on the west coast is a relatively new development on ND's schedule compared to the annual game in the northeast. ND didn't add Stanford as a permanent opponent until '88, and has played a game on the west coast every season since except one (I believe it was '95, Stanford went off the schedule for two years in the mid-90's.)

Of course, if ND joins a conference, there simply aren't enough spots on the schedule for ND to play a conference schedule and keep all of their traditional rivalries (sin, Marcus). Some of the traditional rivalries would have to go. We can argue until the cows come home about which stay and which go, but I think it's fairly obvious that, in that situation, Stanford would be one of the ones to go. So ND wouldn't have a west coast roadtrip every year after that, no matter what happened with the USC series.

Thanks for proving my point about why ND should remain independent. :wink:

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain the USC-ND game. They're ND. USC-ND is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain their independence. They're ND. Independence is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

Makes just as much sense to me.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Post deleted when I realized I screwed up my editing job.

[Terry in Crapchester]

OK, I am going to call bullshit here. While Terry makes some good points lets not pretend the majority of teams did not make some sacrafices when they joined a conference. It comes down to one thing: MONEY.

While ND would love to keep playing SC, Navy, Pitt, etc...if the money isn't there they will change their tune real quick. You can cite your independence and history and blah blah blah but we all know the bottom line in 99% of every athletic department is the dollar. W/o a TV contract ND would be real happy to play in the the BigEast or Big10.

You basically said the same thing I said earlier. Without the TV deal, ND would have been forced into a conference, and would be forced into a conference rather quickly if the TV deal goes away and they're unable to replace it with something comparable. However, I wouldn't phrase it as other teams having made "sacrifices." Bottom line is, by continuing as an independent, ND is doing what every other team in 1-A is doing: acting in their own best interests. Don't kid yourself: if any other team in college football thought they could get what they consider a better deal overall as an independent than they get as a conference member, they'd leave their conference in a heartbeat.

Having said that, there are several prominent donors to ND's football program (as in, seven figures per year prominent, and no, I'm not one of them) who have vowed never to donate another penny to ND should ND ever decide to give up their independence. That's a pretty strong incentive to stay independent.

[Goober McTuber]

Regardless, they'll make sure to maintain the USC-ND game. They're ND. Beating USC more often than not is a large part of their tradition. It's who they are.

FTFY.

Exactly. A large part of the tradition built by ND has to do with their success against USC. Beating Pitt will never quite mean as much, will it?

I just think it’s hilarious that you feel Notre Dame somehow needs USC to validate their storied place in college football history. That it would somehow be a much less legendary CFB power had they never played USC. Arrogance, thy name is “USC Fan”.

Could you just change your nic to “Vain”? TIA.

[Sky]

You basically said the same thing I said earlier. Without the TV deal, ND would have been forced into a conference, and would be forced into a conference rather quickly if the TV deal goes away and they're unable to replace it with something comparable. However, I wouldn't phrase it as other teams having made "sacrifices." Bottom line is, by continuing as an independent, ND is doing what every other team in 1-A is doing: acting in their own best interests. Don't kid yourself: if any other team in college football thought they could get what they consider a better deal overall as an independent than they get as a conference member, they'd leave their conference in a heartbeat.

Having said that, there are several prominent donors to ND's football program (as in, seven figures per year prominent, and no, I'm not one of them) who have vowed never to donate another penny to ND should ND ever decide to give up their independence. That's a pretty strong incentive to stay independent.

I should have clarified--I wasn't disagreeing with the money issue I was simply saying that is the only issue that counts when it comes down to it. Tradition, history, agreements all go out the window if you can't pay your coach $30M and fund your football program.

However, your other point attempts to refute that comment so I guess ND doesn't need anyone because they can rely on their donors. So really ND is better than the rest of us but we already knew that, didn't we.

And what the fuck are you talking about...I can't believe you actually think every other school would leave their conference and become and independent if they could get their own TV contract. That is the biggest line of bullshit you have spewed today.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Double post earlier when I tried to edit before loggin in. If one of the mods could remove the first post, it would be appreciated.

[Terry in Crapchester]

[You basically said the same thing I said earlier. Without the TV deal, ND would have been forced into a conference, and would be forced into a conference rather quickly if the TV deal goes away and they're unable to replace it with something comparable.

Having said that, there are several prominent donors to ND's football program (as in, seven figures per year prominent, and no, I'm not one of them) who have vowed never to donate another penny to ND should ND ever decide to give up their independence.

I should have clarified--I wasn't disagreeing with the money issue I was simply saying that is the only issue that counts when it comes down to it. Tradition, history, agreements all go out the window if you can't pay your coach $30M and fund your football program.

However, your other point attempts to refute that comment so I guess ND doesn't need anyone because they can rely on their donors. So really ND is better than the rest of us but we already knew that, didn't we.

I didn't bring that up to say ND is better than everyone else, and I would have thought that most other programs had at least a few donors in that category as well (correct me if I'm wrong; of course, ND doesn't have a state legislature providing any funding for the program either.) I merely brought it up to point out how importance independence is to much of ND's fanbase, and conference membership could result in a major financial hit to ND, along the lines that no other program would have to endure.

[Terry in Crapchester]

FTFY.

Exactly. A large part of the tradition built by ND has to do with their success against USC. Beating Pitt will never quite mean as much, will it?

I just think it’s hilarious that you feel Notre Dame somehow needs USC to validate their storied place in college football history. That it would somehow be a much less legendary CFB power had they never played USC. Arrogance, thy name is “USC Fan”.

Much of ND's tradition was established by a number of wins against Army. If your only perspective is today, that sounds ridiculous, but anyone with even a lick of knowledge of college football history knows there was a time when Army was a legitimate college football power.

Having said that, ND risks becoming as irrelevant as Army is today to a discussion of college football powers by simply living in the past. USC is far from being ND's only traditional rival (a point Van doesn't seem to grasp entirely), but they are a unique rival given the intersectional nature of the rivalry, and along with Michigan, they are the most successful at the present time of ND's traditional rivals. For those reasons, they are an important barometer of ND's program right now.

[Sky]

I didn't bring that up to say ND is better than everyone else, and I would have thought that most other programs had at least a few donors in that category as well (correct me if I'm wrong; of course, ND doesn't have a state legislature providing any funding for the program either.) I merely brought it up to point out how importance independence is to much of ND's fanbase, and conference membership could result in a major financial hit to ND, along the lines that no other program would have to endure.

Two things, first I edited my last post to respond to your edited post.

Secondly, I think you put too much weight in what the donors will say or do. Beyond letting them dictate your coaching choices I don't think they are suddenly going to stop being ND fans if ND were in a situation where they needed to join a conference. There might be an outcry but we all adapt and I am sure you would enjoy the same support from your fan base in a couple years. I know you guys tend to think you are different but you really aren't.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Secondly, I think you put too much weight in what the donors will say or do. Beyond letting them dictate your coaching choices I don't think they are suddenly going to stop being ND fans if ND were in a situation where they needed to join a conference. There might be an outcry but we all adapt and I am sure you would enjoy the same support from your fan base in a couple years. I know you guys tend to think you are different but you really aren't.

I personally will continue to be a fan whether we join a conference or remain independent. Right now I would put myself in the "never say never, but" school of thought with respect to conference membership. Independence has been good to ND and has played an integral role in the program becoming what it is today. For that reason, imho the proponents of conference membership bear the burden of proof, and it is a heavy burden. But I also never forget that ND football is the dog and independence is the tail, not the other way around.

I honestly can't say what others will do if that situation ever presents. Many may carry out their threats never to donate to the program again. Others may relent. In that regard, it probably doesn't matter much what I do. I'm not in position to be a 7 figure per year donor, probably never will be, and on the off chance that I ever am, my wife would probably argue that the money would be better spent setting up a foundation for kids afflicted by matters similar to our son, and I can't say that she'd be wrong.

[indyfrisco]

Many said they would not support A&M if Bonfire was no longer going to be school sponsored, including many large donors.

I'd say A&M is doing ok in the donorship catagory still...better than ever.

I find it pathetic some would call themselves "fans" yet attempt to hold that institution hostage with their wallets.

[Sky]

I'm not in position to be a 7 figure per year donor, probably never will be, and on the off chance that I ever am, my wife would probably argue that the money would be better spent setting up a foundation for kids afflicted by matters similar to our son, and I can't say that she'd be wrong.

Just a side note here. I used to work at OSU's alumni association where we had a database that listed all donations. Lets just say there were many many 6,7, and 8 figure donators. While I know some of them went to good causes (improving educational programs, building new lecture halls or classrooms, research) a lot of it went to the athletic dept as well. I don't have a problem with some level of donation but when three local public schools are cutting arts, music, and sports programs because of a lack of funding I have a problem. So to echo your point, there are many many more worthy causes than the athletic dept of some major college.

Many said they would not support A&M if Bonfire was no longer going to be school sponsored, including many large donors.

I'd say A&M is doing ok in the donorship catagory still...better than ever.

I find it pathetic some would call themselves "fans" yet attempt to hold that institution hostage with their wallets.

Good point.

[Van]

Goober, your ankle biting is getting to be absolutely ridiculous. I could say the sky is blue and you'd find a way to nip at my nuts over it.

Yeah, Goober, ND would be a less legendary CF power if they didn't have the USC-ND rivalry. Absolutely. Same goes for USC too. Knute Rockne? Ara Parseghian? You don't see any USC tie in with these guys and the history of ND?? No, they don't need USC-ND to "validate their storied place in CF history" and I never said that, did I? No, I didn't. I did say that USC-ND is who they are, which is 100% true. Since its inception and taken as a whole throughout the years that game is the single most important annual game on ND's schedule. It's also the biggest intersectional rivalry in the nation and it's the one ND game the entire nation watches every year.

You think their continuing legend status was built on the backs of Pitt and Navy??

What, are you fucking stupid??

[Van]

Terry, I have no problem understanding that ND has addtional rivals beyond USC. Thing is, none of them matter as much in this day and age and only Army and Navy ever mattered as much.

Army's no longer a rival. They're a moot point.

Navy's no longer a rival. They're simply a debt and an automatic W.

Pitt has never been a rival, not unless we're to label every team on one's schedule a "rival". B.C.-N.D. is probably a bigger rivalry game (for both teams) than Pitt-ND.

Miami was huge, but only for a very short period of time.

Michigan is big but that hasn't always been an annual rival. Michigan St used to be a pretty big game but again it was never an annual rivalry.

NOBODY in the Big East is a rival for ND.

Stanford's no rival and they haven't always been an annual game either.

Basically, it's Army and USC for ND and Army's long gone so yeah, USC-ND remains ND's most important and storied annual rivalry game and nobody else is even a close second.

[Killian]

Michigan is a very close second and if not for Yost, would be ND's biggest rival and vice-versa.

If this thread is still going when I'm in the office on Wednesday, I'll post on it then.

[Van]

Hmmmmm, I wonder what ND's W-L records are against the remaining Big East teams, 'cause, like, ND's fans think it'd make more sense and stuff for ND to join The Big East if they were ever to join any conference...

:-)

[Killian]

And you can pin point ND's recent record against the Big 10 to their shit-tacular coaching. When ND has had good coaching and comperable talent, ND has done very well against the Big 10.

[Killian]

Exactly. This is all about money. ND makes much more money as an independent than they do in a conference. Wich is why no one can come up with good arguments for ND joing a conference. And if the NCAA wanted to make an issue of it, they would go to the Big East because it would be more profitable for them and as a final "fuck you" to the Big 10.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Pitt has never been a rival, not unless we're to label every team on one's schedule a "rival". B.C.-N.D. is probably a bigger rivalry game (for both teams) than Pitt-ND.

For BC? Absolutely.

For ND? No way. There's definitely a section of ND's fanbase that looks upon BC as a glorified version of Navy. I'm not saying that's what they are, but that's the way a portion of ND's fanbase views them.

ND-BC is BC's biggest game of the year, no doubt. They have a serious "little brother" attitude viz. ND. ND, on the other hand, mostly looks at ND pretty much the same way you and I would look at a mosquito -- annoying, but not enough of a threat to get worked up to the point of hatred.

As for Pitt, you apparently have gotten the impression that Pitt makes only an occasional cameo appearance on ND's schedule, a la Tennessee or Florida State. Not true. As I mentioned earlier, Pitt ranks 5th all time in terms of most games played vs. ND. ND and Pitt have met 16 times since 1986, 51 times since 1943, and 60 times since 1930. http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... eamid=2581 I'd say that qualifies them as a long-term rival.

Michigan is big but that hasn't always been an annual rival.

Due only to the fact that first Fielding Yost, then Fritz Crisler, refused to play ND for extended periods of time. But for those factors, Michigan-ND would probably be ND's biggest rivalry.

Michigan St used to be a pretty big game but again it was never an annual rivalry.

Huh? http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... eamid=1988

Since 1948, we've played them every season but three. There are other members of the Big Ten who have skipped more meetings with Michigan State in that period of time than we have.

Why didn't ND's alumni want to join the BigTen?

ND's record against Ohio State: 2-3

With your background, I'm guessing you have at least rudimentary knowledge of statistics. Certainly you know that five games aren't enough to form a fairly representative sample.

ND's record against Michigan: 14-18-1

This is one where we've actually fared better in recent years, unlike the bulk of our program. Since the modern era of this series began in 1978 (with a hiatus from 1943 to 1978, I think that's a fair definition of the beginning of the "modern" era of this series), we're 12-10-1 (including the '06 results, which aren't up yet). http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... eamid=1977 That's hardly lopsided in our favor, of course, but it is much more favorable to us than the all-time record.

ND's record against Penn State: 8-8-1

All of which were played against Penn State while Penn State was still an independent (ND is also 1-0 vs. Penn State as a member of the Big Ten, which didn't get included in your all-time record.

ND's record against Wisconsin: 8-6-2

Last played in 1964. Not relevant to any discussion today.

ND's record against Iowa: 13-8-3

Last played in 1968. Not relevant to any discussion today.

Personally, I could care less whether Notre Dame joined the BigTen or any conference. I think they have a $weet deal, and I can't blame them for wanting to perpetuate it. And, to be honest, they are in a position to do so. So rack them. If major CFB wanted to force Notre Dame to join a conference, they could ice them out. But they won't do that, and therefore have nothing to bitch about.

I doubt ND will ever be iced out of anything. There are too many teams on their schedule who play them regularly, and for whom that game is too important to their overall season, to boycott ND. And even if that did happen, with 119 1-A teams, ND probably wouldn't have too much difficulty finding replacements to fill their schedule. Throw in the fact that every team that plays a game at ND gets a portion of the NBC revenue.

If the BCS tried to ice ND out, my guess is that ND would simply thumb their nose at the BCS and hope that public opinion came down on their side. That might very well happen, as unpopular as the BCS is, and it would be the death knell for the BCS if it did. The only way to freeze ND out complete would be a 16-team playoff field which made ND ineligible, and even that might not work.

But it seems to me that if one's goal is to get ND into a conference, that's the wrong approach. Our athletic director is a follower, not a leader. I have no doubt that if he believed the majority of ND's alumni supported conference membership, he'd have us in a conference so fast it would make your head spin. In light of those facts, it seems to me that the best way to get ND into a conference would be to convince a majority of ND's alumni that conference membership is in ND's best interests. Rotsa ruck doing that, though.

[Goober McTuber]

Goober, your ankle biting is getting to be absolutely ridiculous.

Ankle-biting, Vain? Seems I touched a nerve. Keep at it, though. It’s people like you that are pushing USC fan ahead of ND fan in the contest to be the most loathed college football fans in the country.

[420]

Goober, your ankle biting is getting to be absolutely ridiculous.

Ankle-biting, Vain? Seems I touched a nerve. Keep at it, though. It’s people like you that are pushing USC fan ahead of ND fan in the contest to be the most loathed college football fans in the country.

Actually, you could be the worst poster on the board.

It's a shame you found the College Football forum after 7 years.

[Goober McTuber]

Actually, you could be the worst poster on the board.

[Van]

Terry, no, I don't think Pitt only makes cameo appearances on ND's schedule. Like I said earlier, they're only a "rival" if we consider every team we play a "rival". Yeah, you play each other all the time but Pitt is FAR done on the list of teams ND considers its "must game".

Texas plays Baylor all the time too but they're not rivals, capice?

For ND, Michigan's a rival. Army used to be. Michigan St used to be. B.C. is, at least from B.C.'s point of view. Navy's no rival and neither is Pitt.

Michigan could've been their #1 rival but like you and Killian said, that deal got killed. So, who does that leave as their one constant and true rival down through the years?

[SoCalTrjn]

Id like to see all of the BCS conference schools stop scheduling Notre Dame until they join a BCS conference, even if it means USC doesnt play them for a few years.
The only thing that is going to get the Domers attention is taking away their money. Let's see if NBC renews the TV contract to see the Irish play nothing but Army, Navy and a few Sun Belt, Conference USA and MAC teams.
The reason ND hasnt joined a conference is they do not want to share their TV revenue and they do not want to share their Bowl game revenue. ND will keep the entire 6 million dollars from the Sugar Bowl, LSU will get to use half a million for team expenses for the bowl but have to split the other 5.5 million with the other 11 members of the SEC.
Without the help of BCS conference schools, ND doesnt make nearly the money they covet, yet they arent willing to share what they make.
The BCS conferences schools dont have to be Notre Dames bitches anymore, a united stand breaks the Domers independence and forces them to join a conference

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Let ND have their contracts and the spotlight. All the attention and focus on them just makes it even sweeter when they continue to fall short of expectations.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Id like to see all of the BCS conference schools stop scheduling Notre Dame until they join a BCS conference, even if it means USC doesnt play them for a few years.
The only thing that is going to get the Domers attention is taking away their money. Let's see if NBC renews the TV contract to see the Irish play nothing but Army, Navy and a few Sun Belt, Conference USA and MAC teams.
The reason ND hasnt joined a conference is they do not want to share their TV revenue and they do not want to share their Bowl game revenue. ND will keep the entire 6 million dollars from the Sugar Bowl, LSU will get to use half a million for team expenses for the bowl but have to split the other 5.5 million with the other 11 members of the SEC.
Without the help of BCS conference schools, ND doesnt make nearly the money they covet, yet they arent willing to share what they make.
The BCS conferences schools dont have to be Notre Dames bitches anymore, a united stand breaks the Domers independence and forces them to join a conference

It'll never happen. Just a look at the 8 permanent/semi-permanent opponents proves that.

Navy, of course, is a non-issue for you, since it's a non-BCS school. So let's look at the others.

Don't expect Michigan, Michigan State, Pitt or Purdue to stick to the deal. If something like this ever even got out of the talking stages, both the Big East and the Big Ten would be trying to make nice with ND in the hopes of eventually landing them. So these schools stay on the schedule.

BC? Are you crazy? They're already bitching about the fact that they're being dropped from the schedule in the near future for leaving the Big East. There's no way they pass up any opportunity to play ND.

USC? Nah, this game probably means too much to USC and its fanbase (and while we're on the subject, I'd like to see Van weigh in on whether he'd support this idea, if it possibly meant the end of the series). I think they continue to play us.

Stanford? I suspect their administration is traditionalist, since they still attach importance to such quaint notions as academics. In that case, it depends on how they view this. If they view it as an effort by ND to hang on to an important part of ND's tradition, then they're probably sympathetic to ND. If they view it as a cash grab by ND, then they'd probably support a boycott.

So at best, I think you have 1 of 8 of ND's permanent/semi-permanent opponents onboard with this idea.

[Van]

Terry, nah, I don't have enough of a hard on to see ND join a conference that I'd drop USC-ND just to help make it happen. USC-ND is inviolate as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand I don't really care all that much one way or another whether or not ND joins a conference. No skin off my back, either way. I do know though that SoCalTrjn's idea will go into effect right around the same time Lax runs naked through Heritage Hall with an "I WANT SOME PETEY SPUNK" party banner protuding like a pony's tail from his ass..

[Terry in Crapchester]

On the other hand I don't really care all that much one way or another whether or not ND joins a conference. No skin off my back, either way.

In that case, why have you advocated so strenuously in favor of ND joining the Big Ten? Are you that bored?

I do know though that SoCalTrjn's idea will go into effect right around the same time Lax runs naked through Heritage Hall with an "I WANT SOME PETEY SPUNK" party banner protuding like a pony's tail from his ass..

And agreed.

Btw, that's not the first time he's made that suggestion. In the past, I've suggested he schedule a meeting with Mike Garrett and pitch that idea. So far, he hasn't taken me up on that suggestion. I'm guessing that meeting will take place right around the same time as the meeting where he suggests that USC drop basketball and recruit only in state.

[Van]

Terry, purely in the interests of wanting a level playing field and fair play and all that, yeah, I'd like to see ND join a conference and the Big 10 seems to obviously be the most natural fit for them. Geography, natural rivalries, level of competition, history, you name it, the Big 10 makes more sense for ND than the Big East or any other conference.

Personally? What do I care? I'm not forced to watch ND-N.Carolina on NBC. The BCS hasn't yet handed ND a title game bid they didn't deserve. Basically, whether or not ND joins a conference isn't going to affect USC or me so I really don't care.

Bored? Well, yeah. Why else would any of us here ever post, if not to simply waste time? Do any of us here really need to attempt to sway each other's opinions regarding CF? Must we insult strangers on the internet in order to get through our day? Of course not. (Well, hopefully. Some people here though, I'm not so sure...) By and large, this place is just an outlet to alleviate boredom. I can guarantee you that there isn't a single person here that truly deserves any real enmity from me. Any person here, if I met 'em, hey, we'd get along just fine. Rooting allegiances? Wouldn't matter.

Dins, you, Adel, SoCal or m2...friend or foe...wouldn't matter. Cut out the internet artiface and you're all fine by me. We all love CF and we all like to laugh and we all like doing this shit better than whatever else we ought to be doing and that's why we're here.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Terry, purely in the interests of wanting a level playing field and fair play and all that, yeah, I'd like to see ND join a conference and the Big 10 seems to obviously be the most natural fit for them. Geography, natural rivalries, level of competition, history, you name it, the Big 10 makes more sense for ND than the Big East or any other conference.

I disagree for several reasons.

First, if money is a factor, then the Big East makes more sense for ND than does the Big Ten. The Big East will allow ND to keep the TV contract; the Big Ten will not. In the event that ND won a conference championship, the Big East would probably allow them to keep, not the entire revenue, but probably at least a proportion corresponding to what ND could now get if ND won an at-large bid as an independent. There's also the issue of the Big East exit fee, which now is pretty substantial. ND obviously wouldn't have to pay it if they joined the Big East, but probably would have to pay it if they joined the Big Ten in all sports. Of course, ND could avoid it by joining the Big Ten for football only, but the Big Ten probably doesn't want that, and even if they agreed to it, I don't think having your two major revenue sports in separate conferences is a realistic option for ND's athletic department.

There's also been a world of difference between the Big East and the Big Ten, from ND's standpoint, in terms of non-monetary issues. And there's no reason to think this wouldn't continue. If we want Navy as a conference member so that we don't have to burn an OOC game to keep them on the schedule, the Big East will do that. The Big Ten won't. If we want a 7-game conference schedule, the Big East will probably do that. The Big Ten won't unless they also want it. With respect to the conference schedule, I'm pretty certain that we'd get annual matchups with the teams we want in the Big East (Navy if they join, Pitt, and possibly Rutgers, given that they become an annual opponent beginning in '10). We already know that the Big Ten doesn't want to do that for us (they want us in a division with Wisconsin, last played in 1964; and Minnesota, last played in 1938; and in the opposite division from Purdue, a continuous rivalry since 1946; and Penn State, the only northeastern team in the Big Ten). From an historical standpoint, for some time ND's football and basketball teams were -- are -- in different positions relative to their need for conference membership. The Big East recognizes that, and has been willing to accommodate that. The Big Ten has not.

Throw in the Big Ten's previous rejection of ND upon the grounds that they did not want a Catholic school as a member of their conference, as well as the impact on other sports if ND left the Big East in those sports for the Big Ten, and you have more than enough reason why ND, if forced to join a conference, should choose the Big East over the Big Ten. At least imho.

[Terry in Crapchester]

I let this go for awhile once the bowl season got into swing, but . . .

This is all about money.

I don't entirely agree. The timing of the initial agreement with NBC is crucial here.

ND signed its first deal with NBC shortly after Penn State announced plans to join the Big Ten. At the time, Florida State was seriously exploring membership with both the SEC and the ACC, and there were rumblings that Miami would join a conference as well. ND saw the beginning of the end of independents comprising a major bloc of college football teams, and I believe the NBC deal was done to make sure that ND wouldn't have to join a conference. So I see the NBC deal as a means to an end (i.e., continued independence), rather than an end in and of itself.

Let's also not forget that the NBC deal didn't come without a significant amount of criticism from within ND. Many viewed the deal as ND selling out the program to NBC. And some of their points have proven correct. NBC has affected the start time of home games (back when I was a student, home games started at 1:30 local time unless moved for TV), although in fairness, they have acceded to ND's request not to schedule games on Saturday evenings or weeknights.

I find it pathetic some would call themselves "fans" yet attempt to hold that institution hostage with their wallets.

I get what you're saying here, and I don't disagree. Having said that, however, it's important to remember that until a donor gives the money, that money belongs to the donor, not the university. If a donor to ND's program feels strongly enough about independence to cut off future donations to ND if ND joins a conference, he's certainly within his rights to do so. I wouldn't do it myself, but that doesn't mean that someone else doesn't have the right to do that.

[TheJON]

I'd like to just take this opportunity to say FUCK NOTRE DAME!

That is all.....carry on.

[Killian]

I'd like to just take this opportunity to say FUCK NOTRE DAME!

That is all.....carry on.

The funny thing is that no one would take the time in the middle of a post to say "FUCK IOWA" unless they were an ISU fan.

That's all you need to know.

[TheJON]

You're right, it must be great to go 13 years without winning a bowl and still having the media spank it to your football program. It must br nice having a coach do NOTHING and beat nobody but the sisters of the poor but still have the entire media stroke it to the ground he shakes errrr walks on. I will admit, going to undeserved BCS bowls and having a nationwide bandwagon fan base with people that have never even set foot on the schools' campus would be pretty cool. Oh well, I'll just have to resort to rooting for a crappy program like Iowa with no tradition and no ability to ever contend for Big-10 titles or major bowl games.

Oh, and fuck Notre Dame!

[Killian]

The funny thing is that you have an opinion about Notre Dame and would try to argue it if confronted. I have no opinion of Iowa, except knowing that they are going through one of their "up" cycles and still haven't won an out right Big 10 championship or a meaningful bowl game. The same can be said for ND, but they are coming out of a "down" cycle.

[TheJON]

Oh come on, that's not Iowa's fault. 2002 we go 8-0 in the Big-10 and get a co-title. There's not really anything we could have done. We cruised through the Big-10 season that year. That was just pure bad luck. And don't bring up "Ohio State was better." Bullshit. The teams never played each other. I know, I know, OSU beat Miami and Iowa got rolled by USC......yeah, yeah, that's the typical response. As if that actually proves something.

[Killian]

So, has Iowa won an out right Big 10 title in the last 10 years?

Yes, OSU was better. They beat everyone on their schedule. If Iowa was undefeated, you'd have an argument. But they weren't and you don't.

[TheJON]

How does them going unbeaten prove they were better? Why does the fact that we rolled many opponents that they were lucky to have barely beaten not go into determining the better team?? Or is it because that wouldn't help support your argument?? In November, there was no debate who the better team was. Iowa cruised through the Big-10 schedule while Ohio State was maybe 4-5 plays away from being 5-3 or even 4-4. I recall many Michigan players saying Iowa was clearly the better team. They'd know better than anyone. Had OSU drawn USC in their bowl game, they would have been rolled too. Sure they lost 2 games, but by the end of the year that was the best team in the country and I don't think there's really much debate on that. Unlike Miami, USC actually showed up for the game. Beating a team 40+ days after your last regular season game proves nothing.

[MuchoBulls]

[*]The Big East adds one more team, but not for another four years or so. Central Florida is the most likely possibility. They won't expand beyond nine unless ND is part of the deal.

The Big East is not going to bring in an all sports program, or a football only program, because the non football playing members do not want to lose their voting power. With the structure of the new Big East television deal the conference is basically set for the next handful of years minimum, if not for the next 10 years or so, with the current setup.

The 9th football playing spot will remain vacant and will be held for ND.