Thoughts About the MNC Game Two Days Later

420 · Post by **420** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:22 pm

88, bro.

You lost me after chapter 9... of War and Peace.

It's just a football game, brother.

Hope all is going well with your business ventures and your family.

Best wishes on a great 07'.

the_ouskull · Post by **the_ouskull** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:35 pm

I love getting to follow an mtool post 'cause, no matter what I say, it's going to make me look smarter.

OU dealt with the EXACT same problem when Malcolm Kelly got hurt during the BSU game. I'm not saying we would have won, but Thompson barely overthrew a couple of receivers that Kelly is much faster than...

Boise may very well have still won the game, and in saying this, I'm not taking anything away from them... but with Kelly, it could have very well been a different game. In other words, 88, I feel your pain.

the_ouskull

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:55 pm

Rack you 88...great post...

there is a pic of the fateful injury on Dispatch.com UGH...

anway granted there was a hold on the KO return...Ginn would have outrun Nelson regardless...I wish they would have called the hold now...FUCK

hats off again to the gators...

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:58 pm

Uhhhhh.....

When did Ginn start to play defense?

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:05 pm

420 wrote:88, bro.

You lost me after chapter 9... of War and Peace.

It's just a football game, brother.

Says the guy that know more about the football than anyone...probably needed to sprinkle in a few pictures or a word search to keep out little friend's mind stimulated.

I have to know, is he his spelling and grammar correct? Or is this your day off?

My take two days later: Florida is still the national champs and the Big Ten still sucks.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:05 pm

T Rex he doesn't but let's just take a hypothetical for a second...

what if he is in the game and forces FLA to double him and not allow FLA to come up field with reckless abandon...maybe tOSU keeps their D off the field maybe not...it is not about Ginn not playing defense but about the whole game plan...

your team won hats off...everyone plays hypotheticals after the game...if the roles were reversed and FLA got shithammered and the 2 QB system bit them in the ass would you be here saying if they would have stuck with one they would have won?

again I have mainted since the end of the game tOSU got out played and out coached...but tOSU fan is just playing a little hypothetical here...nothing more nothing less...

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:07 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:Ginn would have outrun Nelson regardless...I wish they would have called the hold now...FUCK

Well, he still would have "scored" and likely hurt his foot, only to have the score taken off the board so the final may have been 41-7.

And T Rex, if Ginn is in and OSU can move the ball, that puts more pressure on UF's offense to respond (if OSU scores) and more pressure on UF's defense to prevent big plays. 88 hit the nail on the head. With out Ginn, UF could play 8-9 in the box and blitz the shit out of Smith, something no other team could do all year.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:07 pm

shoalz be careful or Al Bundy will go apeshit on you...

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:33 pm

Obviously with Ginn in the game, he would've made a greater impact.

I just don't think that impact would've equated to 42 points or better.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:39 pm

88 wrote:With Ginn:

That is a SWEET picture...

That picture of him getting rolled up on by his own guy is both sad and funny at the same time...I wish you guys had him at least for the game but he's not enough to make up for how big of a margin of victory Florida put up.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:34 pm

Obviously, the better the players you can put out there, the better your chances. Ginn's absence undoubtedly hurt the Buckeyes' chances.

That said...that's some of the stupidest shit I've ever read. Did this hack actually watch the game?

If he did, did he happen to notice that the left side of OSU's O-line was collapsing as quickly as the ball left the center's hands, every single down?

Someone wanna remind me of the last time a team won when they had 2-3 o-linemen that didn't even show up for the game?

One example? Anyone?

I don't care if you have Superman, The Flash, and Wonderwoman as your recieving corps, you ain't winning shit if your o-line gets taken out behind the woodshed.

And frankly, I'm somewhat aghast that some homer would even insinuate that it was all about losing Ginn. He should try watching the whole game, and not just the highlights next time.

Unbeeeebable.

Oh....and maybe next season, Tressel should make his pregame lockerroom speech about which color jersies they're supposed to tackle(and take the legs out of). Two days later, and I'm still laughing my balls off. Pretty fucking sweet that a team paid such a high price for being no-class idiots. I mostly blame the coach. If you don't hold your players to high standards, you shouldn't be suprised when they do stupid shit(like take money from boosters in a way that can be caught), sometimes with very bad consequences. Reaped what he sowed.

Kansas City Kid · Post by **Kansas City Kid** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:43 pm

Imagine how fast Ted Ginn SR must be! :D

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:47 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:T Rex he doesn't but let's just take a hypothetical for a second...

what if he is in the game and forces FLA to double him and not allow FLA to come up field with reckless abandon...maybe tOSU keeps their D off the field maybe not...it is not about Ginn not playing defense but about the whole game plan...

your team won hats off...everyone plays hypotheticals after the game...if the roles were reversed and FLA got shithammered and the 2 QB system bit them in the ass would you be here saying if they would have stuck with one they would have won?

again I have mainted since the end of the game tOSU got out played and out coached...but tOSU fan is just playing a little hypothetical here...nothing more nothing less...

I hear you on the hypos....BUT.....the runback WAS just like a bomb on the first play. UF responded with THREE drives for TDs. Uhhhh.......

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Killian wrote: And T Rex, if Ginn is in and OSU can move the ball, that puts more pressure on UF's offense to respond (if OSU scores) and more pressure on UF's defense to prevent big plays. 88 hit the nail on the head. With out Ginn, UF could play 8-9 in the box and blitz the shit out of Smith, something no other team could do all year.

Did you watch the game? Even the announcers made comments on how UF was generating tremendous pressure with JUST THE FRONT FOUR!!!!!!!!!! Then they blitzed on occasion to mix it up. Troy would have never found Ginn from his back or running THE WHOLE GAME.

Bunch of Skip Bayless' in here.....too fucking funny.

Bottom line, that SEC schedule....playing tough teams week in and week out made all the difference. UF was used to big games because they played in them all season. How many did OSU play in?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:06 pm

My point was, without a speed reciever, UF had the ability to keep 8-9 in the box and give different blitz looks without having to worry about anyone on OSU's team beating them deep.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:10 pm

Killian wrote:My point was, without a speed reciever, UF had the ability to keep 8-9 in the box and give different blitz looks without having to worry about anyone on OSU's team beating them deep.

But that's NOT what they did....they dropped multiple people into coverage almost every play. They were getting such a pass rush that they didn't need to stack the box. I would assume this was the gameplan from the start and they did not veer from it. Double the WRs downfield.....with Ginn or without. When you have a pass rush like that it opens up the defense for a lot of different looks. They blitzed on definite passing plays.

Watch the game again.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:11 pm

I have to agree with T REX ont his one. Smith was on his ass and/or being chased around due to the front 4, not the linebackers. I said to myself ofver and over during the game how badly OSU's line was playing. Florida D came to play...and play they did.

I have a hard time believing Ginn would have made much more of a difference except on special teams. And the special teams he would have been helping on was strictly kickoff returns for the most part which means the other team just scored.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:26 pm

like I have maintained tOSU lost plain and simple...

you are correct T...FLA answered with 3 TD drives two of which were short fields thanks to tOSU stupidity...no fault of FLA they took what they got and converted...that is what great teams do in these situations...

Dins - no class idiots huh? I guess an Oregon player never celebrated? Oregon State never had anyone run afoul of the law...i mean I could care less, but your incessant crap about tOSU being no class idiots for celebrating a TD is a bit humorous and sad at the same time...I think these are still kids playing a game...I mean SEC players dove into the end zone all year with no one around them...not sure if any of them got hurt...but it was a freak thing on an ELECTRIFYING opening to a huge game...I guess since Oregon or Oregon State haven't played in a big game in a while that you really can't get excited for Holiday Bowls, Pioneer Vision Las Vegas bowls and such...

can we give it a rest? ok to you it was funny but again they are still kids...I am sure you never did anything stupid as a kid or rather yet still do not do stupid things...so should we call you a no class idiot?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:29 pm

I don't blame the guys for celebrating. However, whoever #8 is should be blasted off the team.

You go tackle your star player from behind at the knees to celebrate? How fucking STUPID is that kid?

That's why there's a PENALTY for that play in football. It's called clipping and it is a dangerous play!

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:59 pm

Indy...agree Stupid...very stupid...

but for Tressel and his team to be called no class idiots is just ludicrous...it was stupid and put tOSU in a huge hole...but others have said here...was Ginn going to play defense? Unless the 85 Bears were going to suit up in hindsight tOSU had no answer for the FLA offense...

I do agree that Ginn was probably going to be a huge part of the OSU offensive package and perhaps may have saved 10-14 points for tOSU but in the end FLA probably still wins the game...but if you look at how much separation he had between himself and Nelson (hold aside) it wasn't even close...nelson wouldn't have got him even if there wasn't the hold (WHY DIDN'T THEY CALL THE HOLDING PENALTY?)

again...SC will say it for everyone in the bleachers, cheap seats, etc...FLA came, they saw, they kicked tOSU's ass...plain and simple...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:16 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote: Dins - no class idiots huh?

Isn't that what I said? Should I type it again?

I guess an Oregon player never celebrated?

Your point? I doubt you've ever heard a person scream at a television as loudly as I did when Keith Lewis danced on the Husk....Hus....sorry, can't type it....that one team to the north's logo(although it was in retaliation for the year before...since Weasel was such a class act...but still inexcusable, nonetheless).

Are you trying to get me to say Bellotti brings an air of class to the program? That'll happen right around the same time Lucifer tags you with a snowball to your dome. I remember that one time Bellotti gave the opponent credit for playing well, and said "they just plain outplayed us." Wait...no I dont. Because it's never happened in the last decade.

Oregon State never had anyone run afoul of the law

Uhm....are you on drugs? Did you not catch the "I HATE all thing Beavers" the first 500 times I said it? They sexually abuse stolen gay sheep, for goodness' sake. They've taken lack-of-class to a humorous level...because Riley and Erikson couldn't care less about that sort of thing.

but your incessant crap about tOSU being no class idiots for celebrating a TD is a bit humorous and sad at the same time...I think these are still kids playing a game

So, their parents failed them.

When I was a kid playing sports, my Dad would have run out on to the field and beat my ass silly in front of the world had I conducted myself like that.

Just because it's commmon, and just because the sports-watching public has become jaded by idiots, doesn't suddenly make that shit any less of a no-class bullshit antic. But it is kind of sad to see that you're part of the problem, and not the solution...you have no problem with a jackass acting out the part of a jackass -- I do.

Act like you've scored a touchdown before, idiot. If you need help with this, study the (short) career of Rashan Salaam...who laughed at the notion of keeping his first NFL TD ball(which he simply handed to the zebra), while telling the equipment guy who handed it to him "whatever...I've scored touchdowns before." THAT's how it's done.

My drinking-while-driving analogy still stands-btw. Just because you get away with sheer fucking stupidity more often than not, it doesn't make it any less stupid. And again...BODE...the proof is in the pudding. And it's NOT the forst time a player has been hurt doing and end-zone celebration(although I'm trying to pick my brain for a comprehensive list, but other examples were given in another thread). So, are you trying to maintain that I have a more comprehensive knowledge of fottball and the events in it than Tressel? As highly as I like to think of myself, to call that a "stretch" would be the understatement of the year. Ergo, Tressel didn't prepare his players. And not just to avoid injury through stupidity, but to condunt themselves with class. Obviously, he lacks it himself, if as a "leader" he doesn't demand it of his charges.

Period. Again, the proof is in the pudding. While you can defend stupidity all you like, when all is said and done, that's all you've done...defend stupidity. And that was FUCKING STUPID...do you deny this?

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:26 pm

Wow based on one celebration Tressel has no class? That is plain stupid Dins...

I agree the celebration was dumb...yes act like you have been there before but every player celebrates TD's again it just so happens on this one celebration a kid got hurt...

99.9% of the time OSU players score they hand the ball to the refs...and in this instance overzealous teammates did the deed.

But again to label Tressel no class or lacking class because of this one instance again is just plain dumb...

We will have to agree to disagree on the blame game and how you view Jim Tressel...but we do agree the actions of ONE player were pretty stupid...

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:32 pm

Sam - I agree with that part of it...trust me...I hate the showboating, in your face crap...but I refuse to label Jim Tressel no class because of that...that would mean EVERY COACH IN AMERICA is low class or no class then because I have seen players from just about every team celebrate that way...

I brought up the Jarrett thing from the Rose Bowl...why wasn't he flagged? He taunted a dude twice...granted the Michigan dude hit em...but does that mean both Carr and Carroll are low class coaches?

Just askin...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:47 pm

Sam gets it.

"Everybody" is out there butchering the English language. "Everybody" had their boxers sticking up out of their pants. "Everybody" acts like a thug from the ghetto.

Just because we've become jaded to it, it doesn't somehow remove the "classless" factor.

It's up to parents to teach kids how to conduct themselves like a non-idiot(messageboard conduct is exempt-btw). Once they crack adulthood, it's up to them to continue it.

Support of the Nazi Party was widespread in Germany at one point. Did that make it right(yeah, that was an extreme analogy)?

Matter of fact, from this day fprward, at any sporting event I attend, I will BOO any player, mine or an opponent, when they act the idiot. If others were to join me in my crusade, maybe it might send a message to the misguided on how to conduct oneself.

Who's with me?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:53 pm

Devil's advocate here...where do you draw the line?

Is a high-5 with a teammate classless?

Is a coach slapping a player on the ass classless (in addition to gay)?

Personally, I have thought it was great that officials started hammering down on celebrations. I still think too much doesn't get called for excessive celebration. Any jump and bump uglies shoud get a flag. Just wondering where you would draw the line...

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:04 pm

Dins totally agree...and since finding out that happened on the TD celebration I think it is stupid...and dude should burn in hell...

I hate TD celebrations period...!

i am with you...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:16 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:Devil's advocate here...where do you draw the line?

Is a high-5 with a teammate classless?

Is a coach slapping a player on the ass classless (in addition to gay)?

Personally, I have thought it was great that officials started hammering down on celebrations. I still think too much doesn't get called for excessive celebration. Any jump and bump uglies shoud get a flag. Just wondering where you would draw the line...

Good questions.

I guess since I've crowned myself the leader of this campaign(if I had a website, this joke could actually grow some legs, what with the speed of the Information Superhighway these days), I say we make it a committee, rather than a dictatorship...because I'm democratic like that.

So, in the words of the great Skully...Huddle up, guys.

In my opinion, slapping a quick, fairly expressionless high-five is cool. Any low-key act in support of a teammate, especially a lower profile one, is cool.

Thumping your chest, or acting like you're auditioning for Dancing With The Tards...not cool. This should be punished with loud booing.

Coach and/or player buttslapping -- I see that not so much as a "class" issue, but more as a "gay" issue. I mean, come on...it involves placing your hand on another man's ass. In this regard, I say we "draw the line" right around the navel. Any violation of the Anti-Gay Act of 2007 should result in loud booing, and accusations of homosexuality(because it's pure class for fans to call players "faggots").

Fan Law?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:27 pm

I can already tell we need a new thread called Fan Law that will surely be archived.

Lead the way, Dins. I'm off to Texas for 5 days.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:31 pm

IndyFrisco wrote:I can already tell we need a new thread called Fan Law that will surely be archived.

Lead the way, Dins. I'm off to Texas for 5 days.

Well, it is now the offseason, and calling Tressel, Ginn, and co. names has already gotten pretty old.

But geez...calling your shot on an archiving....that's some pressure. Give me a while. If I'm going to rely on the garthoks in this forum to make me look good, I better get the ball started strong, and do them proud. Although anyone else is welcome to throw down the gauntlet, if they beat me to it.

BraveFan · Post by **BraveFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:53 pm

Let me get this straight. Ohio State scores a touchdown on the most electrifying possible start on the biggest possible stage in college athletics. Roy Hall slips while running to congratulate Ginn..... Hall falls on Ginn awkwardly and Ginn gets hurt...... and therefore, Jim Tressel suddenly has no class and is an idiot???

Will my nighmare ever end?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:13 pm

BraveFan wrote:Let me get this straight. Ohio State scores a touchdown on the most electrifying possible start on the biggest possible stage in college athletics. Roy Hall slips while running to congratulate Ginn..... Hall falls on Ginn awkwardly and Ginn gets hurt

Are you fucking kidding me?

Dude -- two days is WAY too soon to go the rivisionist-history route.

He WRAPPED UP ON THE DUDE. Probably the only OSU player to wrap up on anyone all evening.

That's not an "accident" -- it's a freaking TEXTBOOK tackle-from-behind. I mean, persuit from behind, hand around hips, slide hand down the center of gravity while collapsing the knee...TEXTBOOK shit, right there. Hell, if Roy Williams did that in the NFL, they'd pass a rule against it.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Did Tressel tell his guys "hey don't wrap up on anybody after that"?

Take another good look at that pic -- he freaking TACKLED the guy. Wow, what an AMAZING display of poise Tressel's guys put on. And not preparing your team to play with poise after being ranked #1 all freaking season, or even for a player to not know to display poise is, quite frankly, fucking idiotic. But most of the failure in that department falls squarely on the shoulders of Tressel.

Care to argue the point? I'd really enjoy it if you did. I think the appropriate term for that would be a "speedbagging."

BraveFan · Post by **BraveFan** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:45 pm

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not arguing that it wasn't stupid or idiotic. Of course it was. And that pic certainly makes it look like Roy Hall was a defensive end who just went unblocked on a quarterback.... so I see where you're coming from. But, if you watch the film, you'll see that Roy indeed slipped and then instinctively (and, stupidly) decided to grab onto Teddy on his way down, which is when the attached picture was taken. No slip, no Ginn injury.

It's really a moot point, but I'm just sayin' that Hall's slippage was the cause of both the injury and the apparent pile-on. Either way, I don't buy into this notion that a freak accident like this somehow proves that Ginn is a thug and Tressel has no class (when indeed, Ginn is an upstanding young man and Tressel is imho as classy as we come as human beings). Ginn got taken out by a teammate from behind after a ridiculously exciting play caused some 21 year-old kids to uncharacteristically show very high levels of emotion. In fairness to them, that play would have whipped any team into a frenzy.... that was just a ridiculous way to start a National Title game after a TWO MONTH layoff. Of course they were ready to explode.

That said, in addition to this pile-on after the Ginn TD, I must say that Ohio State did a lot of things that were uncharacteristic. Jawing at midfield.... the late hit by Grant that gave Florida their 2nd straight start from incredibly good field position..... Tressel going for it on 4th and 1 from our own 29...... etc. It was indeed a total meltdown from the coaching staff to the waterboy. No question about it.

I still feel like this is a nightmare from which I may never wake up.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:07 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:...but if you look at how much separation he had between himself and Nelson (hold aside) it wasn't even close...nelson wouldn't have got him even if there wasn't the hold (WHY DIDN'T THEY CALL THE HOLDING PENALTY?)

Are you kidding? He had the perfect angle and that guy grabbed the back of his jersey.

campinfool · Post by **campinfool** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:18 am

I really think the refs blew that game for OSU. Only if they would have thrown a flag for unsportsman-like codunct for the celebration before he gets tackled then OSU wins hands down. Freaking zebras keep ruining the game.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:17 am

And let me go on record.....under Tressel I think the Buckeyes are all class. Tressel is all class too.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:51 am

^^^^^^^^

thank god after some early incidents things have cleaned up immensely...i think they had a ton of kids with greater than 3.0 GPA's and what not...plus not too much happening on the police blotter lately either...

hats off to Leak even though I don't care for him (just don't care for him like I said prior and a guy like Hart just my opinion)...dude won with class and showed it...also hats off to Troy I read what he said at the press conference...class kid...

too bad we couldn't have been treated to a QB duel would have been nice...

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:01 am

Leak went from late rounder to late first day.

Smith didn't hurt himself too much but a huge game would have propelled him into the top ten I think.

It costs him some $$$$$.

Bobby42 · Post by **Bobby42** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:15 am

Hey, everybody.

Good points all around, but Florida kicked the Buckeye's ASS...!!

Plain and simple.

They were prepared. They made no mistakes and exploited Buckeye miscues.
Florida played with passion and they never let up. THEY NEVER LET UP.

Where was the Buckeye passion?

Maybe we shot our wad during the Michigan game. Maybe the 51 day layoff was a factor,
or maybe Teddy Ginn's injury was a factor. Forget about that shit.

During the game I said to myself: "Damn...they really want to kick our ass!"

Passion. They had it. tOSU lost it.

On Monday night the Gators had the "eye of the tiger."

Jobocky · Post by **Jobocky** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:26 am

Great take on the game 88. I want to add a couple key moments in that game that I think were crucial

(1) Florida's first drive, On the one 3rd down pass completion there is no way in hell the receiver made a first down. His feet were over the line, but the ball was at least half a yard behind it. Still don't understand why that was not reviewed by the booth. This was a key moment because of the momentum Florida was getting back at that point. If they have to punt there, OSU's defense gets off the field, the offense gets on much earlier than they did, with the lead (which OSU's offense was never on the field with), and the D can regroup. Now maybe FLA goes for it there, but regardless ... key moment

(2) After OSU finally was able to hold Florida to a FG making it 24-14, the kick off's in the end zone, Buckeye ball 20 yard line. What a perfect time to bring in Wells, and pound the ball a little bit, give the defense a much needed rest, and take some pressure off Smith who was horrible up to this point. This was the perfect opportunity to have Smith let the game come to him and move the ball slowly down field. Remember, OSU just shredded the FLA defense on the ground in their previous drive. What does Tressel do but have Smith throw 3 horrible passes .. 3 and out and to me ball game over. In my opinion this was Tressel's worse decision of the night. Much worse than the next series where he went for it on 4th down (which by the way, I didn't think was such a bad move at the time) If you remember that next series, he did come out with Wells. At this point FLA knew Smith didn't have his game and and knew the ground game was coming.

Props to FLA and their game plan and the fire they came out and played with. They were definitley the more motivated and hungry team. With that being said and all that 88 mentioned above, the loss of Ginn brought the Buckeyes intensity down as well. It shouldn't have, but it did.

Florida is the deserving national champ today, no question about it, but it may have been a little different ball game at those 2 moments

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:23 am

RACK Dinsnails

Just a simple ass-whipping. Plain and simple.

Ginn's injury wasn't near the factor that 51 days and an inferior coach were.