Mac Gets Screwed

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:A Hall of Famer player should be a natural-born specimen...not a good player that got better with the assistance of something articificial.
Today's players have the edge on yesteryear's players for a lot of "un-natural" reasons. Better equipment, better technology, school lunch programs, and better science behind their training.

Is that "unfair" ?

I don't believe in "natural-born" specimens. I believe it takes a lot of work and un-natural effort and risk to get to a hall of fame level.

Sure genetics plays a role, but the streets are replete with genetic potential whose work ethic and heart failed them.

I liked Mac and thought him to be a class guy. I still think so, but did he break a law and/or a MLB policy (assuming he did 'roid up) ?

Great take...

The players today do have a great advantage with technology and medical science but hitters are also facing pitchers that should be in the minor leagues. Guys that train hard year-round and don't use illegal stuff are just as legit as the players in the past. It's those on the juice or HGH that are cheating the game. Then again, MLB for not ridding themselves of this issue earlier cheated the game and the fans. I don't point fingers at just the players...the sport allowed them to cheat and some of them did. Whether they used stuff that is banned by most sports and it wasn't banned in baseball, they were still playing with an advantage that not every player had. Those players like Tony Gwynn didn't use that crap to be a better player and athlete.

Kansas City Kid · Post by **Kansas City Kid** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:51 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Kansas City Kid wrote:Here's to the saddest of possible words
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Trio of AAA-ers, fleeter than birds
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac

Ruthlessly pricky our gonfallon bubble
Turning a Giant hit into a double

Words that are weighty with nothing but trouble
Mendoza to Mendoza to Mac!

Well, if that wasn't just entirely out of left field...

I'm a sucker for impromptu poetry....RACK.

Just a spin on the old CUBS poem, "Tinker to Evers to Chance........" from the '08 Championship Season (1908, that is.....)

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:52 pm

JCT wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:Gwynn could be a horrible in the field .

Huh?

Should've said...

He could've been horrible in the field...

Damn grammar nazis

JCT · Post by **JCT** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:55 pm

No, it has nothing to do with grammer. Gwynn has 5 GG's and never made more than 6 E's in a year (twice winning the GG in both those years.)

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:56 pm

Shoalzie wrote: I don't point fingers at just the players...the sport allowed them to cheat and some of them did.

So taking 'roids wasn't against the law or MLB policy at the time ?

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:56 pm

Why is it the slappys out there get no run. Is it because rome makes fun of guys like Wade Boggs? These guys get grief because they are smart enough to know that a bouncer up the middle beats the hell out of warning track fly balls?

So Gwynn didn't jack one out every couple of games, so fukking what. 338 lifetime avg and you wanna keep him out? I guess if he bulked up a little and developed a little more pop and finished with 300 dingers and a 287 avg, it would be different?

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:58 pm

JCT wrote:No, it has nothing to do with grammer. Gwynn has 5 GG's and never made more than 6 E's in a year (twice winning the GG in both those years.)

What I was trying to say in my incoherit way was that Gwynn's ability to hit a baseball could've put him in the Hall without him being a quality fielder. It was kind of a response to Dins' claim of him being a one-tool player. His one tool of hitting was Hall of Fame-worthy. What people think of first with him is his hitting skills.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:59 pm

JCT wrote:No, it has nothing to do with grammer. Gwynn has 5 GG's and never made more than 6 E's in a year (twice winning the GG in both those years.)

Looks like Shoalzie was saying EVEN IF Gwynn was bad in the field, his hitting prowess was enough to earn him a bust in Cooperstown.

That's how I read it anyway.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:59 pm

Shoalzie wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:
Bizzarofelice wrote: Think with your brain, Shoalz

Apparently, you haven't read too many of Schotzie's sports "takes."

I don't mind being called for bull shit when it's warranted but Bizz left out the next sentence in my take. I know killing another person's opinion is easy when you just use part of what they say.

The part Bizz left out...
In Rose's case, he cheated the game off the field but on the field, you can't dispute the fact he played hard. Any guy who could run over a catcher in an All-Star Game is an honest ballplayer.

I know. You disputed your own point. You tried to bring it back by equating running over a catcher in the 70's with honesty throughout the career. Quite a leap.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:01 pm

If he gambled as a player, than I'd be arguing against my own point. His playing career should've put him in the Hall but the fact to gambled on baseball as a manager is where he cheated the game.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:03 pm

The question remains, was there a policy in effect when Mac was supplementing or as it's alleged, 'roiding ?

JCT · Post by **JCT** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:07 pm

MLB had no roid policy then. Doesn't matter though, because Mac never was and never will be a HOFer. When you avg 100 hits a year over 16 years and 4 of those, that's 25% of your career, hitting below .240 you shouldn't even sniff a ballot.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:12 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
Shoalzie wrote: I don't point fingers at just the players...the sport allowed them to cheat and some of them did.
So taking 'roids wasn't against the law or MLB policy at the time ?

No, they weren't...I think why someone like me is up in arms about is that they had to use steroids to enhance their abilities. In the sports world as a whole, anyone who uses steroids is cheating.

I realize a lot of people's views on players like McGwire and Bonds are based on speculation and their own beliefs but since baseball didn't have the brains to police this from happening or just flat out allowed players to do it...baseball put themselves in this mess. When you take all things into account, McGwire and Bonds are Hall of Famers because of their numbers. I think a lot of people and the voters feel they need to punish the players in their own way when baseball wouldn't do it in the first place.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:18 pm

JCT wrote:MLB had no roid policy then. Doesn't matter though, because Mac never was and never will be a HOFer. When you avg 100 hits a year over 16 years and 4 of those, that's 25% of your career, hitting below .240 you shouldn't even sniff a ballot.

Thanks. So that's got to be the real reason and all this 'roid stuff is a media fluff job.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:19 pm

smackaholic wrote:338 lifetime avg and you wanna keep him out?

I haven't heard anyone say he didn't belong. On the contrary, he clearly deserves to be there. My bone is with getting in on the first ballot, which used to be reserved for the absolute best of the best. Never argued that Gwynn wasn't great...he was, and I always enjoyed watching him play. But first ballot material? That's stretching things a bit.

And let's be real -- GG is an award for the best hitter at a given position. Not the way it's supposed to work, but that's the reality(sup Raphael Palmiero...sup ERod...sup...you get the picture).

TG is a great fielder because he never committed more than 6 E's in a season? Newsflash -- Manny Ramirez has never committed more than 7... put him in the Hall for his fielding prowess.

Lance Berkman has never committed more than 6 E's in his career...and when I think "great outfielders," that's the name that pops into my head :roll:.

Luis Gonzales? Nope -- never committed more than 6...and if you can't count on Gonzo to shag that ball, who can you?

Garrettt Anderson? You guessed'er. He's a member of that oh-so-exclusive six-or-less club.

Bernie Williams logged a game or two in the OF(playing a slightly more difficult OF position), and committed about half as many career errors as Gwynn, and has a significantly better fielding%. I rarely hear talk of him being some "great fielder."

Now, I'm not saying TG wasn't a deece fielder. But as with many other aspects, his legend has sure grown since he retired.

Alls I'm saying, is let's keep this whole "fielding" thing in perspective.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:19 pm

JCT wrote:When you avg 100 hits a year over 16 years and 4 of those, that's 25% of your career, hitting below .240 you shouldn't even sniff a ballot.

And yet... his career OBP is higher than Gwynn's.

JCT · Post by **JCT** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:22 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
JCT wrote:When you avg 100 hits a year over 16 years and 4 of those, that's 25% of your career, hitting below .240 you shouldn't even sniff a ballot.

And yet... his career OBP is higher than Gwynn's.

Apples & oranges much? TG had 3K more AB's then Mac.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:26 pm

Was there ever any allegation that Pete might posibly have bet against his team? I think the whole blacksox baseball gambling thing has been carried just a bit far.

If there is a single bit of evidence that he gambled against a team he had any control over, then go ahead and string him up. If not, leave him alone.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 pm

Shoalzie wrote:
No, they weren't...I think why someone like me is up in arms about is that they had to use steroids to enhance their abilities. In the sports world as a whole, anyone who uses steroids is cheating.

That's where I disagree. "Cheating" is waiting for the last mile of a marathon and joining in and "winning". Corked bats, spit balls, things that are against the rules and the regs of the league is cheating.

The use of a pill to enhance ones normal level of performance. That's where I'm interested in the debate. Perhaps it's meant for a different thread.

All in all I trust JCT's opinions in baseball enough to draw the conclusion Mac didn't get screwed. If Mac was a good enough ball player to make it to the HoF and the possibility he used 'roids is what's keeping him out now, then I'd actually have to agree with the original author's take, based solely on the fact there was no policy at the time.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:29 pm

JCT wrote:TG had 3K more AB's then Mac.

Of course he did... he played for a lot longer and didn't walk too much. What the fuck is your point?

Btw, grammar genius... the word is THAN.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:35 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Of course he did... he played for a lot longer

So...this doesn't give Gwynn extra HoF cred?

I am not understanding.

TG is bigtime HoF material. Just not first-ballot, imo.

If Gwynn was such an above-and-beyond others player of his era, which is what a first-ballot induction signifies(or used to), where's all the MVP awards? It just doesn't make sense to first-ballot the guy.

Mac...well, he wants everyone to forget what happened in "the past"? Consider it done, Mac. Coming clean with an apology would have gone a long way. He chose the bitch route, instead.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:36 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:
No, they weren't...I think why someone like me is up in arms about is that they had to use steroids to enhance their abilities. In the sports world as a whole, anyone who uses steroids is cheating.

That's where I disagree. "Cheating" is waiting for the last mile of a marathon and joining in and "winning". Corked bats, spit balls, things that are against the rules and the regs of the league is cheating.

The use of a pill to enhance ones normal level of performance. That's where I'm interested in the debate. Perhaps it's meant for a different thread.

All in all I trust JCT's opinions in baseball enough to draw the conclusion Mac didn't get screwed. If Mac was a good enough ball player to make it to the HoF and the possibility he used 'roids is what's keeping him out now, then I'd actually have to agree with the original author's take, based solely on the fact there was no policy at the time.

Under the rules of baseball at the time, he didn't break any written rules. However, fans will cry foul when know of someone doing something that would be deemed as cheating. Obviously, if there was a drug policy back then and he and others 'roided...they would've been breaking the rules and would've been labeled as cheaters. Palmeiro is the highest profiled player to be nailed for steroids under the new policy but does that make him any less of a cheater than those who used them during the policy-free era?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:39 pm

Oh...and maybe we also shouldn't forget that MLB threw in a ringer-ball to enhance the performance of the enhanced players in 97...there is THAT.

Juiced ball, juiced players...it was kind of the norm of the era. Yet Mac is ashamed of what he did. If he can't own up to it, then to hell with him. A little honesty goes a LONG way with the American public. Hell, we WANT to forgive athletes for shit...it's what we do. And if Mac would have given us the opportunity to do so, I'm sure we, as a collective, would have done so. He never gave us that chance.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Mac...well, he wants everyone to forget what happened in "the past"? Consider it done, Mac. Coming clean with an apology would have gone a long way. He chose the bitch route, instead.

If I had a vote... I would definitely have voted for Gwynn and would have given SERIOUS CONSIDERATION to McGwire before not selecting him. I am taking exception to people like JCT dismissing the guy like he's in the Canseco or McGriff category. His career, inflated stats or no, warrant a HOF discussion.

Mister Bushice · Post by **Mister Bushice** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:43 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:
No, they weren't...I think why someone like me is up in arms about is that they had to use steroids to enhance their abilities. In the sports world as a whole, anyone who uses steroids is cheating.

That's where I disagree. "Cheating" is waiting for the last mile of a marathon and joining in and "winning". Corked bats, spit balls, things that are against the rules and the regs of the league is cheating.

Well, Gaylord Perry cheated and he's in the Hall.

The use of a pill to enhance ones normal level of performance. That's where I'm interested in the debate. Perhaps it's meant for a different thread.

Who's to say opposing pitchers weren't cheating with roids also? The word is that roid use was rampant. Wouldn't that make the whole thing a wash? If the pitchers are enhanced, and the hitters are enhanced, seems to me you've got yourself a level playing field again.

All in all I trust JCT's opinions in baseball enough to draw the conclusion Mac didn't get screwed. If Mac was a good enough ball player to make it to the HoF and the possibility he used 'roids is what's keeping him out now, then I'd actually have to agree with the original author's take, based solely on the fact there was no policy at the time.

I'm sure the roid debate has played into the decision, but he's got another 13 years to see if that holds up.

There are a lot of better ballplayers than him who aren't in the hall, granted few drew the spotlight or accomplished quite what he did he doesn't have many hits and he wasn't a HOF calibre player for a majority of his playing years.

Too bad Macroid is taking all the pub away from the two clean guys who did get in.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:44 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Palmeiro is the highest profiled player to be nailed for steroids under the new policy but does that make him any less of a cheater than those who used them during the policy-free era?

A) Steroids are against the law, or the way the players obtained and used them, anyway

B) As far as being a "cheater"...who cares? Worse yet, he's a foreigner who took an oath to the government of the USA, and stood there before the whole world and broke it. Don't just keep him out of the Hall...throw his ass in jail the next time he sets foot in this country.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:44 pm

smackaholic wrote:Was there ever any allegation that Pete might posibly have bet against his team? I think the whole blacksox baseball gambling thing has been carried just a bit far.

If there is a single bit of evidence that he gambled against a team he had any control over, then go ahead and string him up. If not, leave him alone.

If he bet that a team he was on or managed for would win, he could have fought to win despite what consequences it may have had for the surrounding games. He could have managed the Reds and wrecked three pitcher's arms just to get one win.

For all of you thinking that the Hall is some great place where only the best get in, I beg of you to get over it. Two words: Gary Carter.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:47 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote: If he bet that a team he was on or managed for would win, he could have fought to win despite what consequences it may have had for the surrounding games. He could have managed the Reds and wrecked three pitcher's arms just to get one win.

Bingo.

Pete, as great a player as he was(one of the best ever, without question), can still shut the hell up while he's fucking himself.

And nevermind that he hasn't even honored the plea bargain that kept him out of jail in the first place.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:47 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Worse yet, he's a foreigner who took an oath to the government of the USA, and stood there before the whole world and broke it. Don't just keep him out of the Hall...throw his ass in jail the next time he sets foot in this country.

Oh-Oh... a wetback illegal?? Let's give him a driver's license and all the free in-state tuition he wants.

Sin,
Massachusetts Governor DuNog Patrick

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:51 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Juiced ball, juiced players...it was kind of the norm of the era. Yet Mac is ashamed of what he did. If he can't own up to it, then to hell with him. A little honesty goes a LONG way with the American public. Hell, we WANT to forgive athletes for shit...it's what we do. And if Mac would have given us the opportunity to do so, I'm sure we, as a collective, would have done so. He never gave us that chance.

Well put...

If he broke his silence, it would make a difference to me. He's not lying to us but he must be guilty of something if he won't say he didn't do anything wrong. Usually when someone is being called out for something and it isn't true, the person will come out and say it loud and proud that it's a lie. The accusations of him using steroids or something along those lines must be mum is the word. If it was bullshit...he would've came out early and often putting out those fires. Instead, this issue sits and festers and it'll cost him a spot in the Hall and his image will be forever altered from what it was in '97 or '98.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:55 pm

Mister Bushice wrote:
Who's to say opposing pitchers weren't cheating with roids also? The word is that roid use was rampant. Wouldn't that make the whole thing a wash? If the pitchers are enhanced, and the hitters are enhanced, seems to me you've got yourself a level playing field again.

That's kind of where I lean. If it's a known practice and everyone is allowed to do it, then so be it. Kind of like if some new fuel came out to put in a race car. If it's illegal and sneaky drivers use it, they're cheating. If the authoritative body accepts and allows this new fuel to be used and it's on the up and up, then it's not cheating.

Hell, throughout the history of baseball, there's been substances. Codiene, cocaine, speed, hell even mary jane was legal for awhile. Some people find those substances to assist their performance.

Face facts, we live in a pill poppin' society today. Better living through chemistry was a slogan at one time the delivery mechanisms notwithstanding, we all introduce substances into our bodies to help us feel better, work better, and perform better.

The legality of the time and whether or not everyone has the opportunity to chose to use the substance is where I think cheating comes into play.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:57 pm

Shoalzie wrote: If he broke his silence, it would make a difference to me. He's not lying to us but he must be guilty of something if he won't say he didn't do anything wrong.

So all the people caught and who say "I didn't do it" must not have done it then ?

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:08 pm

Dins,

I'm still waiting for your Cal Ripken cocaine story.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:09 pm

Shoalzie wrote:If he broke his silence, it would make a difference to me.

Is there a stat for that, or is this more thinking with the heart?

Last I heard the Hall of Fame wasn't reserved for those with maximum lovey-dovey and high warm fuzzy percentages.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:14 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote: Last I heard the Hall of Fame wasn't reserved for those with maximum lovey-dovey and high warm fuzzy percentages.

Based on the lack of 100% unanimously selected members, it seems to be pretty subjective (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6352240). Of course, you need the stats to get your foot in the door and get considered, but after that, who knows.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:14 pm

BSmack wrote:Dins,

I'm still waiting for your Cal Ripken cocaine story.

SAME HERE

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:18 pm

8 batting titles says first ballot all the way.

JCT · Post by **JCT** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:19 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote: I am taking exception to people like JCT dismissing the guy like he's in the Canseco or McGriff category. His career, inflated stats or no, warrant a HOF discussion.

No they don't, he's Dave Kingman with 100 more HR's.

Jay in Phoenix · Post by **Jay in Phoenix** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:20 pm

Dinsdale, B'Smack asked you about this:

Cal? Almost an icon, but what was dude's career BA? Without looking it up, I'll guess about .280? And the whole baseball world seems to have forgotten that whole cocaine dealio with the Ripkins(although to his credit, Cal became a model citizen after that shoe dropped).

Want to supply that story w/link? Inquiring minds and shit.

Or did you make this one up too? :wink:

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:20 pm

JCT wrote:
ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote: I am taking exception to people like JCT dismissing the guy like he's in the Canseco or McGriff category. His career, inflated stats or no, warrant a HOF discussion.
No they don't, he's Dave Kingman with 100 more HR's.

100 more HRs and Dave Kingman would have been in the HoF.