Outsourcing - agree or disagree with it?

[Arch Angel]

Fortunately, I escaped the embarrassment of being outsourced by getting hitched and leaving the state. Now my friends back at my last place of employment in Iowa are facing this dilemma and have applied for other jobs. Considering the Cedar Rapids area was hit by outsourcing in the other big three companies, the job market has dried up. Proponents are saying outsourcing is good for business and I was wondering how? The jobs were all moved to India. Seeing that I work with these Indians when I was there, lets just say, a rock is smarter in most cases and the service they provide is awful. Their language skill alone compels me to ask for an American supervisor to deal with. One of the managers, my bowling partner, was forced to hire them because of the money they save the stock brokers. This doesn't surprise me considering that they “bought” three Indians for one American and do not even have to pay bennies.

I am currently at the University of Wisconsin studying to be an IT Auditor to go along with my Information Technology degree and one of my classes is International Business. The teacher is stating that by fostering outsourcing it is generating capital and growth for our economy and to those that lost their jobs; it would allow them to pursue a field that this country needs. This led to a lot of political fighting in the classroom. At least he is respecting my opinion and not slamming me for it, but he has yet to provide me any concrete proof this is good for the economy, especially those who lost their jobs.

By mid May, when the Indians take over, I will call one of my friends outside of IT and ask how the Indians are working out as computer analysts….I wager it won’t be a pretty picture.

Let me hear your thoughts on “Outsourcing”. I need this information so I can incorporate it for my research paper….as a “blog” entry.

[War Wagon]

I guess it all depends on who is getting outsourced... and whose ox is being gored in the process.

Sorry, but if you're job depends on being engaged in some non-value added and easily replacable activity like IT, you're a prime target.

I suggest that you learn how to drive a forklift.

[Dr_Phibes]

The teacher is stating that by fostering outsourcing it is generating capital and growth for our economy and to those that lost their jobs; it would allow them to pursue a field that this country needs.

:?
That's assuming an awful lot.

For every $10.00 an hour job you replace with an outsourced $0.10 an hour job, you destroy $9.90 worth of demand.

That's all well and good if the person previously earning $10 an hour is able to re-employ.
If he gets another job for $10 an hour - then overall world product has risen by the amount of the outsourced job, $0.10. This is a net gain for everyone.

If the person re-trains and re-employs at a higher wage, then America (in this case) benefits as well for the small price of re-training.
The problem starts when re-employment occurs at a lower wage and the shite really hits the fan when no employment occurs at all.

[BSmack]

The teacher is stating that by fostering outsourcing it is generating capital and growth for our economy and to those that lost their jobs; it would allow them to pursue a field that this country needs.

:?
That's assuming an awful lot.

For every $10.00 an hour job you replace with an outsourced $0.10 an hour job, you destroy $9.90 worth of demand.

Actually, what is "assuming an awful lot" is that some pizza-faced jerkoff in crusted Che Guevara jammies would know jack shit about economics.

This must be the part where the Supply Side Fairy leaves tax cuts under the pillow?

[Dr_Phibes]

Economics are my specialty, you should start taking notes.

And while I do have red jammies in a Fidel stylee and you are writing this down - the one thing I really wish I had, which I believe was invented by that famous Japanese inventor (forget his name) who has surpassed Edison in total inventions, is a waterproof notebook, coupled with a special pen of course, for many interesting thoughts worth recording occur to me whilst swimming.

[Mikey]

I'm cool with outsourcing, as long as it's not my job that gets shipped overseas.
Not much chance of that at this point.

[OCmike]

Sorry, but if you're job depends on being engaged in some non-value added and easily replacable activity like IT, you're a prime target.

Run of the mill IT types are a dime-a-dozen and are easily replaceable(to a point), but it's also an industry where a simple trip to Barnes and Noble can help you increase your skill set and make you more valuable.

[Mister Bushice]

Outsourcing works wonders for corporations. They get to pay foreign people who are in need of regular meals the going rate of pennies on the dollar what they were paying their US workers. No benefits, except they get to eat every day while employed, which is a nice benefit all things considered.

It does not work for the trainable US high school grad who can read a computer instruction manual at slightly (well, significantly) under light speed to solve a home users computer problem. With benefits. and vacation pay, sick leave, workers comp, etc.

That HS grad who lost his job to a dot indian or a filipino will then make a choice: More education, or taco bell.

So on that score I'd have to give the general populace a wash. Half get educated, half learn a lo-tech food prep manual at minimum wage with somewhat less than stellar benefits.

Corporations win big time. Former tech support slobs? Not so much.

Take of that what you will, but really, these days it's pretty much a given that tech support ain't worth much more than being able to say "would you like to try our parfait"?

Now if only we could only figure out a way to outsource lawyers and doctors........

[Husker4ever]

Corporations are the big winners...temporarily. A few decades later when shit has went to hell here (poverty, unemployment, high crime, etc...) some fuckstick comes along talking about isolationism, communism, revolution and what have ya. The people listening and liking it are the majority (only so much room at the top) and then all kinds of weird shit follows. I believe history bears this out. It tends to be a bad thing for those in white castles. Greed, money, and the feelings of empowerment and arrogance that goes with them will get ya...eventually. This last election's results was a slight example of this. (Im a registered republican, btw)

[Mister Bushice]

dude you talk a hell of a lot of what ifs.

isolationism, comunism, revolution? are you reflecting back on the 1940s and 50s?

Things are changing way too fast to speak of what the future may hold. Bottom line if you have no skiils you will be flipping burgers or working in the mall and you wont' be able to afford jack shit here in the US. Life has never become less expensive to live here.

[Husker4ever]

dude you talk a hell of a lot of what ifs.

isolationism, comunism, revolution? are you reflecting back on the 1940s and 50s?

Things are changing way too fast to speak of what the future may hold. Bottom line if you have no skiils you will be flipping burgers or working in the mall and you wont' be able to afford jack shit here in the US. Life has never become less expensive to live here.

Your helping to make a point here. As more and more manufacturing jobs are outsourced, you get left with a lot of service industry positions that you describe. People didn't need a 4 year degree to work in a production position throughout the industrial revolution and all the way up to now. These jobs used to pay good enough wages and bennies that dad worked, mom stayed home, and you still lived in the 'burbs. You also bought a new ride every 5-7 years and sent the kids to college on this one manufacturing job.

Does that shit happen anymore? No. Outsourcing....immigrant labor = less of those jobs and shit wages for the ones that remain.

The former 'burb dwelling, uneducated shmucks are now forced onto welfare rolls or the taco stand jobs you mentioned. Both parents have to work, unsupervised 13 year olds are hitting the pipe, and there's no money for college with BOTH parents working.

Fuck outsourcing, Fuck illegal immigrant labor, and double fuck greedy corporations who have sold the heart and soul of this country out in the name of a fatter bottom line and triple fuck the politicians who take the cash and enable all this to happen.

THAT is how those words like isolationism, communism, and revolution become more palateable and those " what ifs" become very real and more likely, if not completely plausible.

Hitler smoothed up on the masses who stood on the outside looking in and we all know how that played out. "You can measure the status and health of any nation by the condition of those in it who have it worst" or however that goes.

It's okay to be successful through hard work and ambition. That's what makes this country great. But when those at the top start reeling in the ladders to the clubhouse and tossing rocks at those below making it nearly impossible...don't act all surprised when someone gets out an axe.

[OCmike]

Your helping to make a point here. As more and more manufacturing jobs are outsourced, you get left with a lot of service industry positions that you describe. People didn't need a 4 year degree to work in a production position throughout the industrial revolution and all the way up to now. These jobs used to pay good enough wages and bennies that dad worked, mom stayed home, and you still lived in the 'burbs. You also bought a new ride every 5-7 years and sent the kids to college on this one manufacturing job.

Does that shit happen anymore? No. Outsourcing....immigrant labor = less of those jobs and shit wages for the ones that remain.

Right, those jobs used to pay so well because unions strong-armed big business into paying higher and higher wages for unskilled labor. As we became a global economy and our markets filled up with goods that were as good or better quality than those manufactured here, the big corporations quickly realized that the only way to compete would be to lower production costs. The two ways to do this is to modernize the factories with more robotics and automation and cutting the wages of workers. Naturally, the unions balked at both of these, so companies had the choice of going out of business or transferring their manufacturing sectors overseas where labor costs are much cheaper.

Unions at one time served the worker well in this country, by getting reasonable wages and working conditions for workers who were being exploited in this country. But after achieving these early victories, albeit not easily, unions have done nothing but exist only to protect the unions' interest (not the workers) and have effectively priced their members out of the global workplace.

The former 'burb dwelling, uneducated shmucks are now forced onto welfare rolls or the taco stand jobs you mentioned. Both parents have to work, unsupervised 13 year olds are hitting the pipe, and there's no money for college with BOTH parents working.

That's because most were unskilled workers who were being overpaid to do jobs that a monkey could do. Naturally, they were easily replaceable or were quickly laid off during tough times, because it's not hard to replace a guy whose job is to drill one hole in the corner of a circuit board. You can train any slope-headed dope off the street to do that when you decide to hire on more laborers again.

Fuck outsourcing, Fuck illegal immigrant labor, and double fuck greedy corporations who have sold the heart and soul of this country out in the name of a fatter bottom line and triple fuck the politicians who take the cash and enable all this to happen.

How about fuck the union heads who care only about themselves? How come union workers are forced to take strike pay (a huge pay cut) during a strike, but the union heads get full pay...even when the strike is not because of an issue of inadequate compensation, but because the union is just strong-arming the company to verify the need for their existence?

It's okay to be successful through hard work and ambition. That's what makes this country great. But when those at the top start reeling in the ladders to the clubhouse and tossing rocks at those below making it nearly impossible...don't act all surprised when someone gets out an axe.

Most people who are in the unskilled or low-skilled workforce are there because of poor life choices(pregnant in high school, dropped out of high school, D's and F's in high school, went to jail, etc, etc). There are exceptions to this, so spare me the sob stories, I know they're out there. I just have very little sympathy for those who are in a shitty situation in life and just lay down and quit, rather than pullng themselves up and fighting for a good life. I've faced 10 times the adversity most people do, yet still support my wife and family and live a fairly successful life. 99% of the reason for this is because I'm not a fucking quitter.

[Dr_Phibes]

it's not hard to replace a guy whose job is to drill one hole in the corner of a circuit board. You can train any slope-headed dope off the street to do that when you decide to hire on more laborers again.

[...]

I've faced 10 times the adversity most people do, yet still support my wife and family and live a fairly successful life. 99% of the reason for this is because I'm not a fucking quitter.

What you should realise, is that jobs of all skill and educational levels can be outsourced. This means that a factory worker earning $10 an hour can be replaced for $0.10 an hour and any potential job that this person could have re-trained to can also be replaced for a lower cost job overseas.

That is not a growth engine, it is simple job substitution in a best case scenario.

[Mister Bushice]

So phibes you think the 3rd world will never catch up?

Ever been there?

I have many times. Twice last year, 3 trips on the docket for this year.

Everytime I go I see major progress. It is only a matter of time before costs there rise as COL does, and it is all happening.

Also FYI "tech support" is not a skill job. It is an entry level job any computer saavy HS student can do.

[Bizzarofelice]

Everytime I go I see major progress.

Brought on by a lot of American investment.

[BSmack]

Also FYI "tech support" is not a skill job. It is an entry level job any computer saavy HS student can do.

Yea, I suppose they "can" do it. But they can't do it well. Performing well in a support environment requires more than a high school degree and the ability to play World of Warcraft for hours at a time.

The problem is that any American who actually CAN do the job stands out and gets himself promoted out of the job. That's because there isn't a company out there that views product support as anything more than a necessary evil. They don't want their best and brightest supporting their products. They want them making money for them on this quarter's balance sheet.

[Dr_Phibes]

So phibes you think the 3rd world will never catch up?

Ever been there?

I have many times. Twice last year, 3 trips on the docket for this year.

Well, I've been to bits of it here and there, but it went on for miles so I couldn't see the whole of it.

And what sort of progress did you see? Was the office you were working in outfitted with new drapery? Or the hotel shop stocked full of shit bread with rude shopping assistants?

Also FYI "tech support" is not a skill job. It is an entry level job any computer saavy HS student can do.

That was not the point.

[Mister Bushice]

So phibes you think the 3rd world will never catch up?

Ever been there?

I have many times. Twice last year, 3 trips on the docket for this year.

Well, I've been to bits of it here and there,

Oh please. You haven't been out of your province.

And what sort of progress did you see? Was the office you were working in outfitted with new drapery? Or the hotel shop stocked full of shit bread with rude shopping assistants?

I saw people who never had jobs employed, everyone has cel phones, some of them have cars, they wear designer label clothes, even the poorest have TVs when 5 years ago no one had. There are internet cafes everywhere now. The young are learning computers. I visit the same 3 or 4 islands every time, two of them major cities and two very backwater, and the progress everywhere is palpable. No way could the economy support that type of lifestyle if the jobs and the wages weren't there also.

Still a long way to go for sure, but eventually the wages will start catching up. Unlikely they'll reach US levels, but they will certainly develop into some semblance of competitive living global wage.

It's happening in China, too. People there see the well to do have all these material goods and a nice life, and they want it too.

[KatMode]

What you should realise, is that jobs of all skill and educational levels can be outsourced.

Found a perfect example of this:

Last year, Lisa and Mark Solomon started The Billable Hour, a specialty wristwatch and greeting card maker and retailer, from their home near New York City. They rely on a far-flung network to produce their goods: A graphic artist in Utah, a watch designer outside New York City, a San Diego cartoonist, a website technician in Buffalo.

For legions of other owners, tiny businesses are a full-time source of growing revenue. Near Nashville, Mary Ferrin expects to sell $150,000 in party games this year, a 50% jump from 2005. She outsources work to other entrepreneurs in Greece and Canada.

Link

Outsourcing: It's not just for corporations anymore.

[Mister Bushice]

So phibes you think the 3rd world will never catch up?

Ever been there?

I have many times. Twice last year, 3 trips on the docket for this year.

Well, I've been to bits of it here and there,

Oh please. You haven't been out of your province.

And what sort of progress did you see? Was the office you were working in outfitted with new drapery? Or the hotel shop stocked full of shit bread with rude shopping assistants?

I saw people who never had jobs employed, everyone has cel phones, some of them have cars, they wear designer label clothes, even the poorest have TVs when 5 years ago no one had. There are internet cafes everywhere now. The young are learning computers. I visit the same 3 or 4 islands every time, two of them major cities and two very backwater, and the progress everywhere is palpable. No way could the economy support that type of lifestyle if the jobs and the wages weren't there also.

Still a long way to go for sure, but eventually the wages will start catching up. Unlikely they'll reach US levels, but they will certainly develop into some semblance of competitive living global wage.

It's happening in China, too. People there see the well to do have all these material goods and a nice life, and they want it too.

[Tom In VA]

Why doesn't $X.00 an hour for a service here mean a livable wage for those performing that service ?

Taxes ?