Russell v. Quinn

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:51 pm

What's the consensus on why JaMarcus Russell will be drafted ahead of Brady Quinn? Just curious as to why many (all?) think he is a better prospect than Quinn. Pros and Cons of each would be great. Trying to make a long Saturday in the office go by.

the_ouskull · Post by **the_ouskull** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:56 pm

One is white, and one is black. Those are basically the differences, complete with all of the requisite stereotypes. Quinn is considered the "prototype" NFL QB, and the most "pro-ready" of the two. Russell is considered the guy with the most "upside," and the stereotypical "black quarterback." (Athletic, throws on the run, not as "savvy," shall we say...) It's not like the Manning / Leaf debate or anything, but, well, I don't think it's as racial as everybody's making it out to be. I think that Quinn is the more experienced, right now, of the two. He's as ready as a rookie QB CAN be to step in right now and perform, given he has some semblance of protection. Russell is the guy that, if you don't need someone to come in and be Vince Young right now, you take him and wait. Step 3, profit, will happen a couple or three years down the road. Those are my thoughts.

the_ouskull

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:12 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:Russell is bigger.

Russell is faster.

Russell has a stronger arm.

In Notre Dame's games against better teams, Quinn melted down.

Russell had the bennefit of a better running attack

Russell had the bennefit of a better defense

In LSU's games against better teams, Russell melted down.

And I would say Quinn "melted down" in one game, UofM. Against USC he was the only player worth a shit on ND's offense that day.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:29 pm

I prefer Brady. There were a lot of games where it seemed he was out there by himself. Russell had a lot more talent around him on both sides of the ball.

Jimbo Fisher is a good coach, but the coaching Quinn got from Weis is unparalled. I think Brady has great size(6'4" 230), arm strength and most of all he is smart. He has played in a pro-style offense for two years and I think he is the more ready of th two.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:38 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:If you think completing less than 50% of your passes means you had a good game against USC, I don't know what to tell you. In fact, Quinn had three games-every game against good competition-where at least half of his passes either hit the ground or got caught by the other team. This bodes poorly for how he performs when he's getting pressured.

While Quinn struggled slightly against USC, there were quite a few balls that were dropped by McKnight and Samardzija.

The reason I asked this question is because many people go back to the "Quinn melts down in big games" card. While I think that may be valid, to a point, people give Russell a pass for his own melting because of his game against ND. Here are Russell's stats:

Overall, Russell:

232 completions
342 attempts
67.8 %
3,129 yards
28 TDs
8 INTs

Against Non-Top 25 teams (LSU was 8-0):

149 completions
184 attempts
80.9%
2,043 yards
20 TDs
1 INT

Against Top 25 teams (LSU was 3-2):

83 completions
158 attempts
50.2%
1,086 yards
8 TDs
7 INTs

In LSU's two losses, Russell had 1 TD and 3 picks. This doesn't take into account his fumbles, either.

People say that Quinn is a system QB who padded his stats by playing shitty teams. In two years, I believe Quinn has had one game under 50% all while getting the shit kicked out of him. Russell seems to have benefited from playing his share of cupcakes as well.

I would also argue that the physical differences (size, speed, arm strength) are negligible between the two. Quinn still has better than average size and arm strength for a QB, and while he may not run a Vick-esq 40, he has decent wheels.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:44 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:Quinn had two games under 50% this year, and one right at 50%.

Completely forgot to take the LSU game into account. And while he was right at 50 for the UofM game, he was at 49% for the USC game.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:42 pm

Quinn is probably the better pure passer. Russell is just a freak of nature between his mobility, his huge arm and his large frame. Just like Vince Young, Russell appeared to be a late bloomer but coming off this past season...his stock is about as high as it gets. It's hard not to ignore what he did in the Sugar Bowl and how he performed this entire season.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:10 pm

Did you not watch the Sugar Bowl?

Did you not watch every big game Quinn was in?

Ok...why do you think quinn is worth a shit at all?

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:12 pm

Killian wrote:Russell seems to have benefited from playing his share of cupcakes as well.

Quinn has played who?

What is his record against said who?

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:24 pm

Quinn also didnt have the talent around him that Russell did.

I still think Quinn will have a better career in the NFL.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:21 pm

Mr T wrote:Did you not watch the Sugar Bowl?

Did you not watch every big game Quinn was in?

Ok...why do you think quinn is worth a shit at all?

Yeah, I watched every game Quinn played. And before you go to the "Quinn shit the bed in all of his big games", you might want to watch those games also. Quinn did not play poorly in the '05 USC or OSU games, he played poorly in the '06 UofM and LSU games, but didn't play poorly against USC or PSU. Even in the UofM game, the first int went right off of the TE's hands, the second was because his arm was hit as he threw and the 3rd was an unbelievable play by an AA corner.

Look how Russell played against the upper echelon teams in the SEC and tell me why everyone is shitting on Quinn while praising Russell. Switch those two in the Sugar Bowl and you would have had the exact same result.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:56 pm

Really, both QB's are damn good NFL prospects. Both have good arms and are good team leaders. I think Russell's size is the biggest difference and because he's a better all-around QB right now. Can throw on the run, can throw in the pocket, good accuracy, big arm, big frame, semi-mobile, etc.... Quinn is not mobile and is questionable throwing on the run. Just depends what you want.........do you want strictly a pocket passer (a la Manning, Brady) or do you want someone that can do it all?

If Quinn ends up dropping to Minnesota or Miami, he can thank god for it. Jamarcus is going to take an absolute beating in Oakland. That is a terrible organization and he'll have a pathetic O-line in front of him. Quinn could step in at Miami NEXT YEAR and be a playoff team. Sure, he'll struggle at times as a rookie QB, but he'll have Ronnie Brown behind him, a solid O-line, solid WR's, and a damn good defense. Their problem this year was QB play. However, I'm not sure Miami goes with a QB. I still don't think they should give up on Culpepper. Harrington, obviously, sucks balls. But I think Culpepper still has some good years left in him. Now, Minnesota is the team that should be drafting Quinn. They're only a few players away from contending in the NFC. They need a #1 WR, but the rest of the offense is pretty good if you add a solid QB. Defensively, they need a little secondary help. But if you draft Quinn, pick up a WR in the 2nd round and get a little free agent help in the secondary, by 2008 they can be a Super Bowl contender. Quinn could play sparingly next year behind Brad Johnson (assuming he comes back to Minnesota), and take over in 2008. I think he'd be a very good turf QB like Manning and Kurt Warner.

Both will be good NFL players, but I bet Quinn is the better QB early in his career because he'll be going to a better situation. As for long-term, who knows? I think both will be successful starting QB's for a long-time in the NFL.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:17 pm

TheJON wrote:Really, both QB's are damn good NFL prospects. Both have good arms and are good team leaders. I think Russell's size is the biggest difference and because he's a better all-around QB right now. Can throw on the run, can throw in the pocket, good accuracy, big arm, big frame, semi-mobile, etc.... Quinn is not mobile and is questionable throwing on the run. Just depends what you want.........do you want strictly a pocket passer (a la Manning, Brady) or do you want someone that can do it all?

Explain this, especially how Russell is the better QB right now. And you haven't watched many ND games if you think Quinn is not mobile, or questionable throwing on the run. You would be surprised how many times in the past two seasons Quinn has picked up first downs because of his mobility.

TheJON · Post by **TheJON** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:17 pm

I'm just saying this is what I've read from NFL scouts about Quinn. They said last year that Leinart can't throw the deep ball, but I'd disagree with that. Right now, I think most would say Quinn is better, but I think Russell is being drafted more on upside. I've seen him throw on the run and he seems to be effective, but not as good on the run as Russell. Then again, few are. Quinn is the better pocket passer. But Russell has the ability to be a triple threat QB, and very few QB's have ever done that.........throw in the pocket, throw on the run, and run all effectively.

Quinn is not mobile when compared to guys like McNabb, VY, etc.... He'll be pretty much stricly a pocket passer in the NFL. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's my kind of QB. I don't care for mobile QB's that much. I see no need for a QB to run very much. I want a QB that throws the ball. But I do like Russell because of, like I said, he's a triple threat. I don't think he'll run a lot, but he is going to be an absolute weapon on 3rd and short situations. Think about it......it's 3rd and 3. How are you going to stop an offense led by Russell? He may not have blazing speed, but his size will allow him to get extra yardage if he runs it. He can throw on the run well, so you can roll him out and the defense will have to respect both the run and the fact that he's good at hitting an underneath route. Or you can just keep him in the pocket and run a quick slant for the 1st down.

And 2nd and short.........you have the same options as you do on 3rd and short, but then you throw in the fact that he throws a great deep ball and that is a viable option. He's going to be a great threat. I would say Russell is a mix of McNabb, Steve Young, and John Elway.

Now, Quinn, I think of him as a mix of Brady, Palmer, Leftwich, and Plummer. So, it just comes down to which of the above groups of QB's you would prefer if you're ranking Russell and Quinn. Do you want a guy that is a mix of Carson Palmer and Tom Brady or do you want a guy that's a mix of Donovan McNabb and Steve Young??

The one guy that's not being talked about that I think can be a very good NFL QB is Drew Stanton. I'm kinda hoping Kansas City takes him in the 2nd round. But other than Quinn, Russell, and Stanton I'm not sure there's a real good NFL prospect at QB in the draft.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:53 am

Killian wrote: Look how Russell played against the upper echelon teams in the SEC and tell me why everyone is shitting on Quinn while praising Russell. Switch those two in the Sugar Bowl and you would have had the exact same result.

Well one guy doesnt make the team....you got that right.

But Russell won, quinn lost

In a head to head matchup we got quinn down by 1

Its pretty darn hard not to be swayed by an asswhooping.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:35 pm

So, and I'm not trying to star shit, you would take Russell based on one game? Is that everyone's line of thinking?

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:22 pm

Mr T wrote:
Killian wrote: Look how Russell played against the upper echelon teams in the SEC and tell me why everyone is shitting on Quinn while praising Russell. Switch those two in the Sugar Bowl and you would have had the exact same result.
Well one guy doesnt make the team....you got that right.

But Russell won, quinn lost

In a head to head matchup we got quinn down by 1

Its pretty darn hard not to be swayed by an asswhooping.

The rest of the teams werent evenly matched. I just cant understand why you can't see that.

Russell had a great season and has an unreal arm, but Quinn is better suited right now to start in the NFL.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:35 pm

if either Quinn or Russell went to UF they would be the best EVER...

Terry in Crapchester · Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:55 pm

Good points made by most in here. Russell is bigger, faster and has a stronger arm. But he's pretty much a freak of nature. Quinn still grades out very well , especially by QB standards, in each of those three categories.

I think those who figure Russell goes #1 are figuring that Russell is more Al's kind of player than Quinn is. By contrast, Quinn is a good fit for Mike Martz' system in Detroit. So I think that if you were to swap the draft order between Detroit and Oakland, most prognosticators would have Quinn going #1.

If I were to compare this to a previous year, to me the most appropriate comparison is 1998. Quinn compares to Peyton Manning (got a ton of publicity, considered quite polished for a QB coming out of college, had a "can't win the Big One" rap that probably wasn't entirely fair), and Russell compares to Ryan Leaf (raw, but a potential talent motherlode). Note that I am in no way saying that either Quinn or Russell, or both, will turn out comparably to the guy to whom I compared him, only that they look somewhat similar to that guy at this point in their respective careers.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:29 pm

Killian wrote:So, and I'm not trying to star shit, you would take Russell based on one game? Is that everyone's line of thinking?

I wouldnt take a QB at all this year.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:33 pm

^^^^^^^^

yes you would Chris Leak right?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:33 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:^^^^^^^^

yes you would Chris Leak right?

Who wouldn't, he's the best ever

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:09 pm

^^^^^^^^^

swhat I am saying...

I don't know how the Raiders haven't come out and already told the world...Chris Leak is our #1 pick...I mean if he can lead a team through the SEC and beat tOSU surely he is ready to take the Raiders to the Super Bowl...

M Club · Post by **M Club** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:36 pm

Mr T wrote: Well one guy doesnt make the team....you got that right.

But Russell won, quinn lost

In a head to head matchup we got quinn down by 1

Its pretty darn hard not to be swayed by an asswhooping.

by that logic... imagine all the gm's who neglect prospects who played at shite d1 or d2 and 3 schools, whose teams couldn't possibly match up with bcs teams, and who consequently go undrafted b/c they're obviously not as good as players from the big 10, sec, etc.

i'd love to see the list of florida qb's who were on the right side of a manning-led tennessee ass whooping. there's like 15 of them, non?

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:56 pm

buckeye_in_sc wrote:^^^^^^^^

yes you would Chris Leak right?

Sure....

I hope buckeye fan aint confusing me with trix.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:07 pm

M Club wrote: by that logic... imagine all the gm's who neglect prospects who played at shite d1 or d2 and 3 schools

ND is a shit school?

Funny, the past two seasons all I have heard was how great Weis, Quinn, Swarmarziamadhatter, ect. were.

Who was ranked higher preseason ND or LSU?

Who lost every big game he played in?

Who lost to MSU?

M Club · Post by **M Club** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:24 pm

russell won, quinn lost... [ergo, draft russell]

sometimes the best player is on the worst team.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:28 pm

M Club wrote:russell won, quinn lost... [ergo, draft russell]

sometimes the best player is on the worst team.

The worst team....

Preseason #2

Heisman talk

MNC talk

One minute Quinn is on a #2 team with the best coach of all-time, next minute he is doing everything by himself on the most horrible team of all time.

I aint buying it

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:04 pm

^^^

By the end of the season LSU was the better team. Stop being so hard headed.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:21 am

No T I ain't confusing you...just making a lighthearted joke about the all world Chris Leak...you know the guy who single handedly lept a tall building in a single bound...

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:17 am

Cicero wrote:^^^

By the end of the season LSU was the better team. Stop being so hard headed.

Newsflash, LSU was always the better team. Even at QB.

Yall are acting like quinn played for rutgers.

Mr T · Post by **Mr T** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:21 am

buckeye_in_sc wrote:No T I ain't confusing you...just making a lighthearted joke about the all world Chris Leak...you know the guy who single handedly lept a tall building in a single bound...

joke on the gates all you want, seriously do....

But leak is one of the few good guys the gates have ever had.

Please joke on the bandwagonning bitches like trix who booed him the past two seasons, including this one.

But Leak is a good guy. He handled shit alot better than most would in his situation.

Carry the team all the way down the field only to get yanked so the white guy could score, sounds too varsity blue-ish for me.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:20 pm

Mr T wrote:
Cicero wrote:^^^

By the end of the season LSU was the better team. Stop being so hard headed.
Newsflash, LSU was always the better team. Even at QB.

Agree on the first part, don't agree with the second. At worst, they were even at the QB position.