At least 34 dead at VaTech {G}

[BSmack]

Give me back
Give me back
My bullets.

Quoting the author of Saturday Night Special???

Hand guns are made for killin
Aint no good for nothin else
And if you like your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why dont we dump em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me

[Tom In VA]

Not intentionally. I was using repetition for dramatic effect.

[Voice of Reason]

And its not up to you just because you have a gun.

Did you thumb your nose and stick your tongue out while hitting submit on that post ?

Whether you live or die in a situation like this, without the ability to escape and without the ability to fight back .... is entirely out of your hands.

Heck if people were able to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, and you chose not to, your odd of surviving are better and more in your control because the focus would be on ...... NOT YOU.

First of all. People had the ability to escape, and some did. Some went about choosing poor ways to get out, of course, but that's another story.

Second of all, when walking into a firefight with a gun wether you live or die is still not "up to you". My comment was in response to you saying that by not having a gun your only option was to "sit and cower and hope you weren't in his sights". Me saying that with a gun in hand it's still not up to you is no less inaccurate than what you said. Without a gun, you still have options left to you to get out of harm's way and with a gun, you still have to "hope you aren't in his sights".

Third, my original comment was simply in response to your assertion that you'd "rather die taking matters into your own hands". Like I said, I'd rather live. If I'm a college kid, I really don't care if I die while trying to shoot somebody, while sitting still, or from fucking S.A.R.S. I don't want to die, peroid. Neither particular scenario is THE LEAST BIT appealling to me, or even worse than the other, when it comes down to it. Death at 20 is fucked, no matter how I go.

Fourth, if it was to pass that many kids had guns, the unarmed kids would actually be the most safe kids in the building. The shooter's got to deal with the people shooting him first, after all, so having a gun clearly doesn't make you a less likely target. And a kid going on a murder-suicide spree is probably still going to be firing shots after he's been hit and mortally wounded.

The idea that the answer is a simple matter of allowing guns on campus making things more safe is naive at best, and in reality, intellectually disengenuous

[Tom In VA]

You're ignoring the fact that these aren't "kids" they are men and women between the ages of 18 and 77.

Shit for all you know some of the students might have been former GI's exercising their benefits after having been in Iraq and completing school.

Armed, there's a chance.

Unarmed, there's no chance.

[Nishlord]

And if everyone had AIDS, we wouldn't worry about it anymore.

[Tom In VA]

I reckon you're right about that. And if the queen had balls, she'd be called the king.


It's nothing more than speculation either way.

[JCT]

Where's IB when you need her. Why is no one talking about how the Korean smoked a brother 1st?

[Bizzarofelice]

Where's IB when you need her. Why is no one talking about how the Korean smoked a brother 1st?

korean guy wasn't all that bad.

[titlover]

And its not up to you just because you have a gun.

Did you thumb your nose and stick your tongue out while hitting submit on that post ?

Whether you live or die in a situation like this, without the ability to escape and without the ability to fight back .... is entirely out of your hands.

Heck if people were able to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, and you chose not to, your odd of surviving are better and more in your control because the focus would be on ...... NOT YOU.

First of all. People had the ability to escape, and some did. Some went about choosing poor ways to get out, of course, but that's another story.

Second of all, when walking into a firefight with a gun wether you live or die is still not "up to you". My comment was in response to you saying that by not having a gun your only option was to "sit and cower and hope you weren't in his sights". Me saying that with a gun in hand it's still not up to you is no less inaccurate than what you said. Without a gun, you still have options left to you to get out of harm's way and with a gun, you still have to "hope you aren't in his sights".

Third, my original comment was simply in response to your assertion that you'd "rather die taking matters into your own hands". Like I said, I'd rather live. If I'm a college kid, I really don't care if I die while trying to shoot somebody, while sitting still, or from fucking S.A.R.S. I don't want to die, peroid. Neither particular scenario is THE LEAST BIT appealling to me, or even worse than the other, when it comes down to it. Death at 20 is fucked, no matter how I go.

Fourth, if it was to pass that many kids had guns, the unarmed kids would actually be the most safe kids in the building. The shooter's got to deal with the people shooting him first, after all, so having a gun clearly doesn't make you a less likely target. And a kid going on a murder-suicide spree is probably still going to be firing shots after he's been hit and mortally wounded.The idea that the answer is a simple matter of allowing guns on campus making things more safe is naive at best, and in reality, intellectually disengenuous

not if it's between his fucking eyes. game over.

[Nishlord]

Just a guess, but would I be right in thinking that the people espousing the Guns For All policy are the same ones who hike up their skirts like Tom's mistress whenever the nuclear programmes of North Korea and Iran are mentioned?

[Dinsdale]

Just a guess, but would I be right in thinking that the people espousing the Guns For All policy are the same ones who hike up their skirts like Tom's mistress whenever the nuclear programmes of North Korea and Iran are mentioned?

It's the rules of the Old West...shoot the bastard before he can pull his gun out.

[Tom In VA]

Just a guess, but would I be right in thinking that the people espousing the Guns For All policy are the same ones who hike up their skirts like Tom's mistress whenever the nuclear programmes of North Korea and Iran are mentioned?

What's the 2nd Amendment have to do with North Korea and Iran potentially being able to nuke somebody ?

It's all about the ability to defend oneself, which is an inalienable right.

[Nishlord]

What's the 2nd Amendment got to do with anything relating to the 21st Century?

It's alright everyone, the Queen Mum's dead.

[JCT]

Venom Venge?

[Mr T]

I wish people would quit blaming everything else, the guy got the record by himself and in the end is the only one to blame.

I dont see a *, so even barry cant even touch him this year.

Ps. I am just glad he is dead so he doesnt get to sit in jail for two more years writing to other fuck up individuals.

[Mr T]

What's the 2nd Amendment got to do with anything relating to the 21st Century?

It's alright everyone, the Queen Mum's dead.

Americans have to explain their laws to the english....no that ended in the 18th century

[Q, West Coast Style]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... tech1.html

[BSmack]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... tech1.html

Reads like a South Korean Douchebag.

[quacker backer]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... tech1.html

Reads like a South Korean Douchebag.

don't want to know how you know that....

[stuckinia]

I'm sure your average kid going to class at 9 in the morning is going to be equally prepared and expecting attack. I'm sure we can expect a completely mature reaction from them.

I don’t think anyone is implying that every single chucklehead in the classroom has a C&C permit. However, those that do have the permit are required to take a course in gun safety that teaches to safely handle, clean and shoot a handgun. Also, VT has a large population of ROTC cadets, most of which I assume have some experience with firearms. I cannot remember being in a class at Tech without at least 2 or 3 of those fools. Finally, being a rural Ag school, there are a large number of country boys that have been taught the proper handling and respect for firearms since they could lift one. Not every gun novice will be running around with concealed weapons. Most of these folks are responsible gun owners.

[Tom In VA]

I'm sure your average kid going to class at 9 in the morning is going to be equally prepared and expecting attack. I'm sure we can expect a completely mature reaction from them.

I don’t think anyone is implying that every single chucklehead in the classroom has a C&C permit. However, those that do have the permit are required to take a course in gun safety that teaches to safely handle, clean and shoot a handgun. Also, VT has a large population of ROTC cadets, most of which I assume have some experience with firearms. I cannot remember being in a class at Tech without at least 2 or 3 of those fools. Finally, being a rural Ag school, there are a large number of country boys that have been taught the proper handling and respect for firearms since they could lift one. Not every gun novice will be running around with concealed weapons. Most of these folks are responsible gun owners.

RACK

Level headed people exist. Level headed 22-23 year olds exist. Take for instance this guy http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech. ... index.html

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- Monday's toll inside Virginia Tech's Norris Hall might have included 11 more students had it not been for a long, rectangular table and a quick-thinking senior who used it to deflect the rampage of his fellow classmate.

Zach Petkewicz said he didn't recognize the sounds that pierced the door and cinder-block walls of his classroom as gunshots until he heard a scream from the hallway of the engineering building.

"The girls in my class peeked out in the hall and saw a gunner come out of a classroom with his gun pointed down," Petkewicz told CNN.

"They immediately slammed the door shut, told us, everybody kind of went into a frenzy, a panic. I hid behind the podium and then just kind of looked up at the door. Like, there's nothing stopping this guy from just coming in. And so I said, 'We need to barricade this door.' "

Petkewicz described his state of mind unabashedly: "I was completely scared out of my mind originally, just went into a cowering position, and then just realized you have got to do something." (Watch Petkewicz describe how he kept his wits about him)

Petkewicz and two other students shoved a table against the door and held it there as gunshots continued to ring out from the hallway outside the classroom.

"He came to our door, tried the handle and couldn't get in because we were pushing up against it -- and tried to force his way in and got the door to open up about 6 inches -- and then we just lunged at it and closed it back up and that's when he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door, thinking we were up against it trying to get him out."

There's more at the link.

I just think this dude is evidence that these young folks aren't overgrown children devoid of ability to respond in crisis.

[Q, West Coast Style]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... tech1.html

Reads like a South Korean Douchebag.

don't want to know how you know that....

I think he's saying, and I'll have to agree, that 'Ol McBeef isn't going to win Cho any posthumous Tony Awards.

[RadioFan]

BLACKSBURG, Virginia (CNN) -- Monday's toll inside Virginia Tech's Norris Hall might have included 11 more students had it not been for a long, rectangular table and a quick-thinking senior who used it to deflect the rampage of his fellow classmate.

Zach Petkewicz said he didn't recognize the sounds that pierced the door and cinder-block walls of his classroom as gunshots until he heard a scream from the hallway of the engineering building.

"The girls in my class peeked out in the hall and saw a gunner come out of a classroom with his gun pointed down," Petkewicz told CNN.

"They immediately slammed the door shut, told us, everybody kind of went into a frenzy, a panic. I hid behind the podium and then just kind of looked up at the door. Like, there's nothing stopping this guy from just coming in. And so I said, 'We need to barricade this door.' "

Petkewicz described his state of mind unabashedly: "I was completely scared out of my mind originally, just went into a cowering position, and then just realized you have got to do something." (Watch Petkewicz describe how he kept his wits about him)

Petkewicz and two other students shoved a table against the door and held it there as gunshots continued to ring out from the hallway outside the classroom.

"He came to our door, tried the handle and couldn't get in because we were pushing up against it -- and tried to force his way in and got the door to open up about 6 inches -- and then we just lunged at it and closed it back up and that's when he backed up and shot twice into the middle of the door, thinking we were up against it trying to get him out."

There's more at the link.

I just think this dude is evidence that these young folks aren't overgrown children devoid of ability to respond in crisis.

Rack the hell out of that dude.

[Voice of Reason]

I just think this dude is evidence that these young folks aren't overgrown children devoid of ability to respond in crisis.

This dude is also evidence that these young folks had more to say about whether they lived or died than to "cower and hope they weren't in his sights", even without having a gun themselves.

[Tom In VA]

I just think this dude is evidence that these young folks aren't overgrown children devoid of ability to respond in crisis.

This dude is also evidence that these young folks had more to say about whether they lived or died than to "cower and hope they weren't in his sights", even without having a gun themselves.

Obviously you would be correct. No excuse for blatant encroachments on the 2nd amendment. But in this case this young man's right actions in the face of fear are a testimony to the ability to survive a situation without being armed.

I think he also stands as an example as to the character of young people as being able to respond, rationally, rather than the irrational chickens running around with their head cut off that you tried to portray them as being.

In light of the example he's set and the lives he saved, I'm happy to concede the point in this circumstance. The rest would be pure speculation and "if"ing.

[Voice of Reason]

I think he also stands as an example as to the character of young people as being able to respond, rationally, rather than the irrational chickens running around with their head cut off that you tried to portray them as being.

I certainly never portrayed all young people, or even the majority, as chickens with their head cut off. The only example I gave was one in which somebody shoots at an armed student in this crossfire. If you stepped out into the hallway, with all of this going on and saw a kid with a gun, that is a fairly rational conclusion to draw, in fact. Doesn't take a "chicken with his head cut off" to make that call.

Even so, kids like the gentleman you linked to would likely do the right thing with a weapon, I have little doubt. He was couragous and smart and should be commended as such. I have no reason to doubt that he would have acted rationally with a weapon as well.

The main point however, is that mass murder on campus is an extremely, extremely, extremely, rare occurance.

I believe, if students were allowed to bring guns to campus single shootings would be, extremely rare too. However, it wouldn't make me feel any better about sending my kids there. I'd take my chances sending my daughter to a school that doesn't allow guns on campus. I would feel safer having her there, figuring my odds are pretty good that a mass shooting won't take place or that she won't be near it if it does, as opposed to how safe I'd feel for her being at a school in which I knew kids were allowed to have guns on campus.

[Tom In VA]

Fair enough. Good talk.

All in all I'd say it was yet ANOTHER, good day of dialog on the board.

;)

[indyfrisco]

All in all I'd say it was yet ANOTHER, good day of dialog on the board.

Thanks goodness for events like this to entice better dialog for the board.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Those who advocate putting guns in the hands of college students are missing an important point, imho.

I know it's been awhile since I was in college, but I seem to remember the alcohol flowing rather freely more often than not. And this was at a private college with one of the toughest admissions standards in the country.

Now, I don't doubt that some aspects of college life have changed since I was in college. But I also don't doubt that alcohol usage is one of the aspects of college life that hasn't changed much since I was there.

Introducing handguns into that situation is not a real good idea, imho. Even if handguns on campus could stop a tragedy like this, they'd likely give rise to more accidental shootings which probably would outnumber the number of people killed like this.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

What's the 2nd Amendment got to do with anything relating to the 21st Century?

It's alright everyone, the Queen Mum's dead.

As is Britain's relevance in the world.

British soldiers kissing Iran's ass (while carrying lovely gift bags) out front should have told you that.

[Y2K]

Those who advocate putting guns in the hands of college students are missing an important point, imho.

I know it's been awhile since I was in college, but I seem to remember the alcohol flowing rather freely more often than not. And this was at a private college with one of the toughest admissions standards in the country.

Now, I don't doubt that some aspects of college life have changed since I was in college. But I also don't doubt that alcohol usage is one of the aspects of college life that hasn't changed much since I was there.

Introducing handguns into that situation is not a real good idea, imho. Even if handguns on campus could stop a tragedy like this, they'd likely give rise to more accidental shootings which probably would outnumber the number of people killed like this.

Yeah, I remember all the drunken fools roaming the campus every morning, I always thanked my lucky stars they weren't packing heat.

[Mister Bushice]

Damn. A Nappy Headed Cho.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Those who advocate putting guns in the hands of college students are missing an important point, imho.

I know it's been awhile since I was in college, but I seem to remember the alcohol flowing rather freely more often than not. And this was at a private college with one of the toughest admissions standards in the country.

Now, I don't doubt that some aspects of college life have changed since I was in college. But I also don't doubt that alcohol usage is one of the aspects of college life that hasn't changed much since I was there.

Introducing handguns into that situation is not a real good idea, imho. Even if handguns on campus could stop a tragedy like this, they'd likely give rise to more accidental shootings which probably would outnumber the number of people killed like this.

Yeah, I remember all the drunken fools roaming the campus every morning, I always thanked my lucky stars they weren't packing heat.

There weren't too many drunken fools roaming campus in the morning. But weekend nights were a completely different story.

The worst part about it was that our dorm had only one bathroom per floor. On Monday mornings, taking a shower before going to class meant having to navigate the landmines of puke on the bathroom floor, before the janitor crew arrived to clean it up. But adding guns to the equation would have been much worse.

[Jay in Phoenix]

Those who advocate putting guns in the hands of college students are missing an important point, imho.

I know it's been awhile since I was in college, but I seem to remember the alcohol flowing rather freely more often than not. And this was at a private college with one of the toughest admissions standards in the country.

Now, I don't doubt that some aspects of college life have changed since I was in college. But I also don't doubt that alcohol usage is one of the aspects of college life that hasn't changed much since I was there.

Introducing handguns into that situation is not a real good idea, imho. Even if handguns on campus could stop a tragedy like this, they'd likely give rise to more accidental shootings which probably would outnumber the number of people killed like this.

Yeah, I remember all the drunken fools roaming the campus every morning, I always thanked my lucky stars they weren't packing heat.

So do we.


Sin,

Arizona State University

[Nishlord]

What's the 2nd Amendment got to do with anything relating to the 21st Century?

Nobody is expecting a Europussy to understand. Just do what you're told, bitch.

Ha ha ha.

"Oh no, we've got a gun problem - let's have some more guns, then" You funny little man.

[Nishlord]

What's the 2nd Amendment got to do with anything relating to the 21st Century?

It's alright everyone, the Queen Mum's dead.

As is Britain's relevance in the world.

British soldiers kissing Iran's ass (while carrying lovely gift bags) out front should have told you that.

Oh dear, another twat acting the hard man on the internet whilst cowering behind some dead kids.

I'm sure the 3,000 or so dead Americans would have preferred to have come home with a bag, instead of in one. But anyway, we're talking about your fucked-up domestic policy, not your fucked-up foreign one.

[Neely8]

Damn. A Nappy Headed Cho.

RACK!!!


So Euro why is it that a civilized country like Britain with strict gun control laws has seen a rise in shootings recently? All the laws in the world won't stop bad people from doing bad things. Banning guns just makes the innocent easier targets......

[Terry in Crapchester]

Those who advocate putting guns in the hands of college students are missing an important point, imho.

I know it's been awhile since I was in college, but I seem to remember the alcohol flowing rather freely more often than not. And this was at a private college with one of the toughest admissions standards in the country.

Now, I don't doubt that some aspects of college life have changed since I was in college. But I also don't doubt that alcohol usage is one of the aspects of college life that hasn't changed much since I was there.

Introducing handguns into that situation is not a real good idea, imho. Even if handguns on campus could stop a tragedy like this, they'd likely give rise to more accidental shootings which probably would outnumber the number of people killed like this.

Then take their car keys away, too.

We couldn't drive on campus at ND, except very briefly to load/unload immediately before/after break periods.

[Mike the Lab Rat]

I'm sure the 3,000 or so dead Americans would have preferred to have come home with a bag, instead of in one.

I don't think that many people were completely shocked that appeasement was considered acceptable by the Brits....again. We were shocked, however that lovely parting gifts were now the price for a nation's pride.

But anyway, we're talking about your fucked-up domestic policy, not your fucked-up foreign one.

Oh, that's right...you consider our Bill of Rights to be antiquated in the "brave new world" of the 21st century.

As opposed to.......a monarchy?

Oh, I know, that's not fair. Britain has implemented some cutting-edge innovations, like omitting references to the Crusades and the Holocaust from curriculum for fear of possibly offending Muslim students. So, your appeasement of Muslims apparently works in both foreign AND domestic issues.

Somehow, your criticisms of OUR policies and culture just sound so damned silly.

[Mikey]

RACK the Polack