TOP 25 OF THE USA TODAY ERA (1982-2007)

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:16 pm

Junior Seau is probably deserving. I think he played too long though and it may have hurt his chances. The last few years Seau has been a non-factor.

btw, is he still playing or did he finally hang'em up?

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:09 pm

I think somebody detached Junior's arm last season.

He could be trying to accomplish a Black Knight - like comeback, but I don't know.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:21 pm

Dog wrote:Statistically, he really doesn't have staggering stats.

8 Pro Bowls

2-time Defensive Player of the Year(6th player to win multiples in history)

Super Bowl MVP

Led NFL in tackles 5 times

Sounds like a pretty impressive resume to me.

Better that Seau's, for certain. Seau played 6 more years, yet has about 75% of the tackles RayRay has, and counting.

Are you tards smoking crack?

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:42 pm

Dinsdale wrote: Are you tards smoking crack?

Nah, just weed.

Funny how people who disagree must be "smoking crack"

Awards are not stats.

Tackles = stat
Forced Fumble = stat
Interceptions = stat

Pro-Bowl appearance = not a stat. And also not very meaningful in the NFL, imho.
Super-Bowl MVP = not a stat. Meaningful, but Doug Williams was also a Superbowl MVP.

I was looking at stats while you are looking at his awards.

tomato/tamahto

I just don't like the fugga.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:07 am

Dog -- Junior has been a non-factor? Are you fucking high? The Pats may have won it all last year had he been healthy.

As old as Seau is, he was the anchor in the Patriots middle that stuffed the run last year. You saw a dramatic imcrease in rushing yards against after he got hurt. He would have been "a nice to have" in second half against Indy last January. He'll be back this year, count on it....

Dins -- are you really surprised Lewis has more tackles playing the middle in a 4-3 as opposed the hybrid/outside guy Junior was during majority of the first 13 years in the NFL?

Furthermore, I am pretty sure no other player has topped his 12 straight Pro-Bowl appearances. Do I think he's full of himself? Yes. Do I think he's over-rated? Possibly. But no more so than Ray Lewis. For all his tackles, Ray Ray sure has gotten blown the fuck up in big games the last few years.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:11 am

Dog wrote:Tackles = stat
Forced Fumble = stat
Interceptions = stat

Stats on a per-game X 16 basis(per full-season avergae)

Tackles

Lewis -- 116.6 Seau -- 84.8

Assists

Lewis -- 33.5 Seau -- 23.7

Sacks (not really much of a stat for MLB, granted)

Lewis -- 3.02 Seau -- 3.52

INT

Lewis -- 2.49 Seau -- 1.00

Fumbles Forced

Lewis -- 0.86 Seau -- 0.80

A half-sack a year edge to Seau. Every other quanitfiable stat goes to Lewis.

Oh, and then there was that "dominating the Super Bowl when he got a chance and taking home all available harware" thing that Seau fell short of.

Lewis is a better player than Seau. Observational data, statistical data, and peer review backs it up.

And awards do indeed count, since their careers have overlapped. Lewis got the recognition, Seau didn't (as much, although he got plenty).

RevLimiter · Post by **RevLimiter** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:24 am

War Wagon wrote:
RumpleForeskin wrote:Remember a couple of years ago in that Monday night game against the Chiefs where Willy Roaf absolutely pwned Ray Lewis...
Yeah, I remember that quite well.

RayRay was miked up and on the sidelines when you hear him crying "They're double teaming me, I can't believe they're double teaming me."

I'd put Junior Seau on that list before Ray Lewis, and I fucking hate Seau, being a division rival.

Actually it was Brian Waters that was taking RayRay to the proverbial woodshed in that game- he got that week's AFC Offensive Player Of The Week honor (the only offensive lineman ever) for doing so.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:40 am

RevLimiter wrote: Actually it was Brian Waters that was taking RayRay to the proverbial woodshed in that game- he got that week's AFC Offensive Player Of The Week honor (the only offensive lineman ever) for doing so.

Yeah, I was pretty sure that it wasn't Roaf, the point being that KC had game planned on how to take RayRay out of the action. Waters made Lewis his personal fuck toy that Monday Night, and it was a joy to watch him meltdown on the sidelines.

I don't believe I've ever seen a game plan work against Seau in his prime.

Stats and awards be damned, I'd take Junior on my team in a minute over RayRay.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:58 am

War Wagon wrote:
I don't believe I've ever seen a game plan work against Seau in his prime.

WTF are you talking about?

Seau got ran the fuck over in SB29, all, day, long.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:19 am

I should've qualified that statement.

I've never seen a Chiefs game plan work against Seau, all those years. Twice a fucking year.

Dude was everywhere causing havoc.

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:29 am

Hey Dins, don't know how to say this any other way.

Dog wrote: Or maybe I just don't like that asshat Ray Lewis and you called me on it.

Dog wrote: I just don't like the fugga.

So lemme try one more time. I am biased against Ray Lewis because I personally think he is a disgrace of a human being, and I'd take Junior Seau over Ray Lewis anyday

You can post any objective information you want to, but I still won't change my mind.

I'm telling you this only to save you the time and effort of doing any more research, cause it would all be futile in the end.

You can thank me later.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:37 am

Yeah, and I'd take Tim Couch over John Elways, any freaking day.

Might not mean he's a better player, though.

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:39 am

Dinsdale wrote:Yeah, and I'd take Tim Couch over John Elways, any freaking day.

Might not mean he's a better player, though.

Personally, I wouldn't take either.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:45 am

Dinsdale wrote:A half-sack a year edge to Seau. Every other quanitfiable stat goes to Lewis.

That's... fabulous. Once again, are you surprised Ray has more tackles considering their whole defense is schemed to funnel the run to him? The Ravens run a 4-3 and always seem to have 650+ lbs stuffing the middle that requires double teams on just about every play. Sorta opens things up for the MLB, huh?

Furthermore, I don't know what his stats are, and I am sure they don't compare favorably to the leading sack and tackle STAT GUYS in the league at his position.... but I know for a fact that Richard Seymour is the best defensive end in the NFL. Three straight All Pros and five straight Pro Bowls out front should have told you.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:59 am

I'm not sure L. Tomlinson belongs ahead of E. Dickerson.
In the time period, 1982-2007, Dickerson had more 1,000 yd seasons, he gained more yards, and he had a 2,000 yd season.

Not a huge issue, but interesting.

Btw, Willie Roaf's name came up in this thread.
You could make a case for him belonging near the bottom of this list.
Unquestionably more deserving than T. Bradshaw.

I still can't believe that shit.

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:14 am

poptart wrote: Btw, Willie Roaf's name came up in this thread.

You could make a case for him belonging near the bottom of this list.

Astute observation.

So can Will Shields name be mentioned.

Loves me the O-lineman some, much. Guys who don't get mentioned much in FFL circles, but who make it possible for the "impact" players to get it done.

Any Top whatever list that doesn't include a decent smattering of O-line players is horseshit to fans who know football.

Headhunter · Post by **Headhunter** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:03 pm

Same case could be made for Larry Allen.

RumpleForeskin · Post by **RumpleForeskin** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:23 pm

War Wagon wrote:[Loves me the O-lineman some, much. Guys who don't get mentioned much in FFL circles, but who make it possible for the "impact" players to get it done.

Any Top whatever list that doesn't include a decent smattering of O-line players is horseshit to fans who know football.

Mike Munchak

Headhunter · Post by **Headhunter** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:31 pm

Damn Rump, you didn't even get the best Lineman off of that team. Matthews was a Better OL in my opinion, and most others as well.

RumpleForeskin · Post by **RumpleForeskin** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:42 pm

Headhunter wrote:Damn Rump, you didn't even get the best Lineman off of that team. Matthews was a Better OL in my opinion, and most others as well.

Matthews was good for a vewry long time, but when Munchak was on that line, he made everyone around him play better. Gary Brown owes Munchak about half his earnings for that rediculous half season he turned in back in '94

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:24 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
Dinsdale wrote:A half-sack a year edge to Seau. Every other quanitfiable stat goes to Lewis.
That's... fabulous. Once again, are you surprised Ray has more tackles considering their whole defense is schemed to funnel the run to him? The Ravens run a 4-3 and always seem to have 650+ lbs stuffing the middle that requires double teams on just about every play. Sorta opens things up for the MLB, huh?

Furthermore, I don't know what his stats are, and I am sure they don't compare favorably to the leading sack and tackle

During Ray's best years the Ravens instituted a 3-4 not the 4-3. They switched to the 4-3 in 2005. So during Ray's best years when he commonly had 100+ tackles, he was constantly fighting off 300lb offensive linemen (and perhaps 2 on double teams and traps) and didn't have the benefit of 2 tackles to take the brunt of the rush before he got his tackles.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:50 pm

Gary Brown owes Munchak

PSU guys stick together.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:11 am

PSUFAN wrote:
Gary Brown owes Munchak
PSU guys stick together.

And while they are sticking together they are praising God, GOD, the Big Kahuna, AND BCO they had the blessing to be on the field with Bruce Matthews. HH nailed that one, as usualm.

RumpleForeskin · Post by **RumpleForeskin** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:22 am

rozy wrote:And while they are sticking together they are praising God, GOD, the Big Kahuna, AND BCO they had the blessing to be on the field with Bruce Matthews. HH nailed that one, as usualm.

No fucking way. Matthews may have played longer, but Munchak was better

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:26 am

A case can be made for Thurman Thomas to be on that list -- instead of L. Tomlinson, even.
Based on accomplishing more during the given time period.

Tough to leave Cris Carter off the list.

Same for Tony Gonzalez -- no tight ends on the list.

And what about Art Monk?? :wink:

orcinus · Post by **orcinus** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:00 am

Agree with your thoughts on Thomas, pop.

He was the mold for backs like Tomlinson, Faulk and Holmes and set the standard during the Buffalo run.

All Chris Carter ever did was catch touchdowns.

Qbert · Post by **Qbert** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:43 am

RumpleForeskin wrote:
rozy wrote:And while they are sticking together they are praising God, GOD, the Big Kahuna, AND BCO they had the blessing to be on the field with Bruce Matthews. HH nailed that one, as usualm.
No fucking way. Matthews may have played longer, but Munchak was better

how long did Munchak play and he was elected to how many Pro Bowls?....and WHO is going to the HOF?

for my PAL poptart: Agreed, what about Art Monk? What about RAY GUY!!!!!!!!

RumpleForeskin · Post by **RumpleForeskin** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:13 pm

Munchak already IS in the HoF.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:48 pm

RumpleForeskin wrote:Munchak already IS in the HoF.

That's your argument? If he wasn't a pussy and "only" played 12 years like Munchak, Matthews would already be in the HOF too.

How many years was Munchak passed over for induction compared to Matthews? Matthews came into the league one year after Munchak and was still fucking playing when your boy got elected to the HOF. I seriously doubt Bruce's record of 14 fucking Pro Bowls will ever be matched.

Muchak better? Sure. Okay... and your wife is a bag of bones.

orcinus · Post by **orcinus** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:49 pm

Ouch.