I'm glad Donovan came back to UF

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:54 am

I held the belief for a long time that breaking down Billy Donovan as a coach was pretty easy. Great recruiter, horrible bench coach. Now the guy has won back to back titles so he clearly isn't a horrible bench coach BUT I'm still not ready to label him a good coach. Clearly what he and his teams accomplished the past 2 years are impressive, historic and can never be taken away from them. That said I'd like to see if it was a 2 year blip on the radar or the emergence of Donovan as an elite coach.

When you look at coaches in recent history you will find many examples of coaches I'd rate mediocre to poor who accomplished things nearly on the level that Billy D did. Steve Fisher is a dreadful coach, which is why he's relegated to SDSU still, and yet he took a team to back to back title games. That was a product of the talent the Fab 5* were on the court and not the brilliance of the man with the clipboard. Nolan Richardson is an average coach at best and in 94/95 he won it all and played in the title game the following year nearly pulling off the double dip. Again more a result of guys like Corliss Williamson and Scotty Thurman than his coaching aptitude. Then you have the ultimate "talent not coaching" example in Guy Lewis who rode Phi Slamma Jamma to the final weekend 3 times, although of course he never won it all.

So when you look at Florida over the past 2 seasons you see a team loaded with NBA players. Giving credit where credit is due most of those guys were not sure fire studs coming out of HS so give Donovan credit for player development at a minimum. The key being the repeat team when the unlikely scenario of not 1, not 2 but THREE sure fire lottery picks put their fortunes on hold for another year. That UF team was special on a historic level. Of course now their entire starting 5 is gone so it's up to Donovan to rebuild. He has the talent arriving already that should keep UF in the mix at a high level immediately. I'm interested to see how UF and Donovan do over the next 4-7 years. With how hard it is to win it all in CBB Donovan can prove to me he IS an elite level coach without ever winning it all again. Shit, that's an amazingly difficult feat to accomplish and unquestioned legends of the game like Knight, Smith and K have only done it 3-2-3 times. But I'd like to see if Donovan can get a team to that level again regardless of if they're able to pull it off or not.

Right now I've gone from a great recruiter/horrible coach to great recruiter/average coach. So I'm glad Donovan came back as a CBB fan so I can get a better read of just how good he truly is.

*the NCAA disavows all knowledge of this alleged team

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:04 am

I disagree about Nolan. he had success everywhere he's been. he may be a jerk, but teams could play and I expect Mike Anderson to have success at MU running the Nolan thing. all the ESPN guys used to say Billy Tubbs was a bad coach too.

i know for a fact that in 00-01-02 that Donavon was widely considered to be running a dirty program by other coaches. Calipari was the other. One of my dad's friends from law school was an acting attorney that accompanied OU delegations to some Coaches Association meetings and the cocktail scuttlebutt was Billy and Calipari were the biggest cheaters in hoops most coaches thought.

i'm not saying it's true, but that's what my pops said*.

that being said, Kelvin Sampson was head of the "Ethics Committee" and put OU on probation.

* i got a hair cut from the cousin of the son of the grammaw of Vito Corleone's source that Adrian Peterson was selling crack to the uncle of Ed Orgeron's Korean mistress who said.....". yeah, I know.

SunCoastSooner · Post by **SunCoastSooner** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:41 pm

King Crimson wrote:I disagree about Nolan. he had success everywhere he's been. he may be a jerk, but teams could play and I expect Mike Anderson to have success at MU running the Nolan thing. all the ESPN guys used to say Billy Tubbs was a bad coach too.

i know for a fact that in 00-01-02 that Donavon was widely considered to be running a dirty program by other coaches. Calipari was the other. One of my dad's friends from law school was an acting attorney that accompanied OU delegations to some Coaches Association meetings and the cocktail scuttlebutt was Billy and Calipari were the biggest cheaters in hoops most coaches thought.

i'm not saying it's true, but that's what my pops said*.

that being said, Kelvin Sampson was head of the "Ethics Committee" and put OU on probation.

* i got a hair cut from the cousin of the son of the grammaw of Vito Corleone's source that Adrian Peterson was selling crack to the uncle of Ed Orgeron's Korean mistress who said.....". yeah, I know.

Nolan did a pretty good job with a talentless Mexico Squad at the America's Tourny.

Just Sayin'.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:27 pm

I'll give Nolan average but I can't go higher than that. I think Anderson is a better coach than Nolan is/was.

As for Coach Cal, him and Worldwide Wes have quite a little operation going on down in Memphis.

Terry in Crapchester · Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:06 pm

Good post, Shine. Fwiw, I would have included Jerry Tarkanian in the "great recruiter, bad coach" discussion as well.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:53 am

Although his style of play isn't my cup of tea I always thought Tark was an above average coach. I'd label him more a "cheating recruiter/decent coach".

Mustang · Post by **Mustang** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:14 pm

Nolan had some damn good players. And what Shine didn't mention, perhaps out of courtesy to me, was that the Hogs benefitted by Chris Collins jacking up ridiculous shots in that '94 Final game. Ugh. Takes a little away from Arkansas' effort but I stil cringe visioning Collins with the ball.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:56 pm

Shine wrote:I held the belief for a long time that breaking down Billy Donovan as a coach was pretty easy. Great recruiter, horrible bench coach. Now the guy has won back to back titles so he clearly isn't a horrible bench coach BUT I'm still not ready to label him a good coach. Clearly what he and his teams accomplished the past 2 years are impressive, historic and can never be taken away from them. That said I'd like to see if it was a 2 year blip on the radar or the emergence of Donovan as an elite coach.

When you look at coaches in recent history you will find many examples of coaches I'd rate mediocre to poor who accomplished things nearly on the level that Billy D did. Steve Fisher is a dreadful coach, which is why he's relegated to SDSU still, and yet he took a team to back to back title games. That was a product of the talent the Fab 5* were on the court and not the brilliance of the man with the clipboard. Nolan Richardson is an average coach at best and in 94/95 he won it all and played in the title game the following year nearly pulling off the double dip. Again more a result of guys like Corliss Williamson and Scotty Thurman than his coaching aptitude. Then you have the ultimate "talent not coaching" example in Guy Lewis who rode Phi Slamma Jamma to the final weekend 3 times, although of course he never won it all.

So when you look at Florida over the past 2 seasons you see a team loaded with NBA players. Giving credit where credit is due most of those guys were not sure fire studs coming out of HS so give Donovan credit for player development at a minimum. The key being the repeat team when the unlikely scenario of not 1, not 2 but THREE sure fire lottery picks put their fortunes on hold for another year. That UF team was special on a historic level. Of course now their entire starting 5 is gone so it's up to Donovan to rebuild. He has the talent arriving already that should keep UF in the mix at a high level immediately. I'm interested to see how UF and Donovan do over the next 4-7 years. With how hard it is to win it all in CBB Donovan can prove to me he IS an elite level coach without ever winning it all again. Shit, that's an amazingly difficult feat to accomplish and unquestioned legends of the game like Knight, Smith and K have only done it 3-2-3 times. But I'd like to see if Donovan can get a team to that level again regardless of if they're able to pull it off or not.

Right now I've gone from a great recruiter/horrible coach to great recruiter/average coach. So I'm glad Donovan came back as a CBB fan so I can get a better read of just how good he truly is.

*the NCAA disavows all knowledge of this alleged team

The guy can flat out coach. He was groomed by one of the best ever in Pitino. If these last two years didn't convince you....nothing ever will. He took those guys and turned them into winners.

When I first read the post I held back till I was sure what I wanted to post......

If what he just did didn't do it for you....with LESSER recruits.....nothing ever will.

And their lottery status is more of a function of WINNING back-to-back titles than anything else. If they didn't win the way they did and play the way they played, they would not have been drafted.

Done with this....

Bucmonkey · Post by **Bucmonkey** » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:46 pm

Envy tends to suck.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:40 pm

Two top 15 commits already on the books for 2008 in Vargas and Kadji.

The Billy machine keeps rolling......

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:13 pm

Matta has 2 top 20 and 3 top 50 I think for 2008...I think UF and tOSU might be meeting for the marbles a few more times in the future...hopefully it works out for tOSU better...

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:59 am

Trix- I don't think anyone has ever doubted Billy's ability to recruit, and coming off back to back titles his pitch is bound to be that much stronger. Now let's see what he does with it.

Buck- I've said it before and I'll say it again, Matta could sell ice to an eskimo. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out in coming years now that IU has a legit coach to keep Indiana state kids within the borders again. Not to mention Sampson has already gone into Ohio and scored. Add a guy like Izzo to the mix, not to mention Belein, and the battle for the top talent in the midwest is going to be intense. And of course the national powers will still come calling for the elite kids. IU locked into a battle with UNC right now.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:09 am

T REX wrote:The guy can flat out coach. He was groomed by one of the best ever in Pitino. If these last two years didn't convince you....nothing ever will. He took those guys and turned them into winners.

If what he just did didn't do it for you....with LESSER recruits.....nothing ever will.

Who gives a fuck who "groomed" him. The track record of guys "groomed" by Bob Knight isn't exactly mind blowing outside of K. Speaking of, the track record for guys "groomed" by K isn't exactly setting the world on fire either.

I've already given credit to Donovan for player development but let's be real here, it's not like he took a bunch of crippled kids and molded them into champions. Corey Brewer was ranked 25th by RSCI in that class and Horford was 47th. Noah clocked in at 72 and was being heavily recruited by IU, so again it's not like we're talking a bunch of stiffs here. RSCI rated that overall group 8th nationally. That placed them ahead of such schools as UNC, Dook, Arizona and MSU.

Again, what he did is historic and it DID elevate his abilities in my eyes. But as I pointed out it's not the first time a program had dominant back to back years with less than stellar coaches at the helm. He may very well prove me wrong and like I said he can do that without winning it all ever again.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:55 pm

Shine wrote:Trix- I don't think anyone has ever doubted Billy's ability to recruit, and coming off back to back titles his pitch is bound to be that much stronger. Now let's see what he does with it.

Huh?

Like I said....if leading those guys to back-to-back titles didn't do it for you....nothing ever will. He HAS PROVEN himself as a great coach.

Sorry, but I believe Brewer was the only big time recruit out of that bunch.

I said he switched his philosophy a few years back and went after that second tier recruit....the ones that'll stay for 3-4 years. He had too many early departures and it bothered him. I honestly believe he would rather have a 4 star kid play for him for 3-4 years than a 5 star guy leave after one.

Donovan has nothing to prove to you. Move on.

Shine · Post by **Shine** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:49 am

Your opinion aside Trix a compilation of recruiting services who are paid professionals at ranking recruits slated that UF class as 8th best in the country.

Also why is that you keep touting that BD quit going after 1st tier guys and "learned his lesson" and prefers the 2nd tier guys, yet in this very thread you're pimping 2 top 15 recruits. Let me guess, in your opinion they're really only 2nd tier guys too.

Donovan has nothing to prove to a TON of folks, but I'm not one of them. As a guy who's posted twice since claiming "done with this" mayhap it is you who should move on.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:35 pm

\I'm Talking about the Kwame Browns....the Greg Odens, The Kevin Loves.....

You won't see those automatic one and done's on his team anymore.....he hasn't done it in years.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:16 am

T REX wrote:\I'm Talking about the Kwame Browns....the Greg Odens, The Kevin Loves.....

You won't see those automatic one and done's on his team anymore.....he hasn't done it in years.

Kwame Brown never played college ball.

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:36 pm

Shine wrote:Nolan Richardson is an average coach at best and in 94/95 he won it all and played in the title game the following year nearly pulling off the double dip. Again more a result of guys like Corliss Williamson and Scotty Thurman than his coaching aptitude.

Yeah, let's see who that "average" coach had:

-His backcourt was made up of Clint McDaniel and Corey Beck.

-Some guy named Ken Biley started the '94 Title game and somebody who's nickname was "Fat Flight" started the '95 championship. (Dwight Stewart)

-His best bench player either of those years was a one-trick jumpshot pony named Davor Rimac.

-His second-best player got zero national accolades beyond his freshman year and was a complete washout at the professional level

-His superstar was an NBA benchwarmer.

I'm sure anybody could have taken that lineup to consecutive Final Fours.

T REX · Post by **T REX** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:25 pm

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
T REX wrote:\I'm Talking about the Kwame Browns....the Greg Odens, The Kevin Loves.....

You won't see those automatic one and done's on his team anymore.....he hasn't done it in years.
Kwame Brown never played college ball.

Wow....please leave this thread immediately. Brown was a UF commit before heading to the NBA and left Donovan standing at the altar.

Wow...just wow....

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:58 pm

Are you saying that if the #1 big man in the USA expressed an interest in UF, that Donovan would look him over, decide that he’s probably a one-and-done, and take a pass?

Terry in Crapchester · Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:26 pm

T REX wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:
T REX wrote:\I'm Talking about the Kwame Browns....the Greg Odens, The Kevin Loves.....

You won't see those automatic one and done's on his team anymore.....he hasn't done it in years.
Kwame Brown never played college ball.
Wow....please leave this thread immediately. Brown was a UF commit before heading to the NBA and left Donovan standing at the altar.

Wow...just wow....

I don't follow college recruiting that closely that I can tell you what a guy did from several years ago, if it's not my team.

In any event, Brown never played for Florida.

T1B

I'm glad Donovan came back to UF

I'm glad Donovan came back to UF

Re: I'm glad Donovan came back to UF

Re: I'm glad Donovan came back to UF

Re: I'm glad Donovan came back to UF