poptart wrote:The very last thing Jesus said to his disciples both before and after his resurrection was to go to all the world, all nations, with the message of Christ.
Jesus gave the command to the guys with whom he worked and whomever they commissioned. Didn't he also promise them that they'd have really cool proofs of their commission (provided by the Holy Spirit)? Stuff like immunity to poison, ability to do exorcisms, speaking in tongues, etc?
The obnoxious freaks that came in later years and centuries seemed to have lost those "proofs" and resorted to the sword, torture, and governmenentally-sanctioned oppression.
It's the 21st century. If someone wants to learn more about Christ, they are free to peruse the internet (to do online research or find a church/Church that will speak with them). People pushing their devotion to
their interpretation of what to believe and how is obnoxious and unAmerican.
poptart wrote:Why would Christ stress bringing the Gospel to all the world, all nations, as the very last point He made?
Because at that time, with no international media, no internet, etc., His message wouldn't have gotten really far unless they spread it.
Gee, does the fact that none of the holy rollers bent on converting the whole world seem to have any of the original "powers" that Jesus gave his disciples mean that the current wave is illegitimate?
poptart wrote:You don't believe in the virgin birth.
Nope, and it's not relevant, despite your beliefs to the contrary. I don't think that the whole "fulfilling Isaiah" bit is anything but retconning, which is a stand that Jewish theologians and a lot of Biblical historians have pointed out (maybe if Mary had named Jesus "Immanuel" it would have fit better...).
poptart wrote:You think a lot of the Bible is rubbish, and is fraught with untruths.
The Bible has a lot of beautiful allegories, poetry, legends, and is a wonderful book full of great
moral truths. However, the irrefutable FACT is that it is riddled with all sorts of scientific errors, historical errors, and internal contradictions...which makes sense in light of the limited academic/scientific level of those writing & compiling it.
Anyone who, in the 21st century, honestly believes that the Bible is scientifically and historically 100% accurate is a freaking clueless dick-in-the-dirt-dumb moron.
poptart wrote:You think Paul, who wrote a large portion of the New Testament, 'hijacked' the faith.
Bingo. He was, in many ways, both the best and worst thing to happen to Christianity.
The Apostles and Disciples were not having a great deal of success spreading the Good News. They couldn't convince the mainline Jews that their Way was legit, and not too many Gentiles wanted to convert to Judaism (especially not with the deal-breaker of circumcision).
Paul, who claimed to have met Jesus in a freaking VISION (as opposed to actually having run with the guy), comes out with a set of relaxed membership requirements, beats the Apostles/Disciples in a debate over the issue, and takes his idea and runs with it. I give the guy props for increasing membership. However, his writings (as beuatiful as some of them are) were stuff he made up whole cloth out of his own head - the guy was NOT an Apostle and didn't run with Jesus, and he made shit up that bears no resemblance to things that Jesus actually is credited with saying in the Gospels.
Paul's martyrdom doesn't give any legitimacy to his teachings, IMNSHO, because history is full of self-deluded folks who were willing to die for their beliefs (e.g., Jim Jones/Guyana, Heaven's Gate, Muslims). The whole "it MUST be true, since they were willing to die for it" horseshit defense doesn't work. All it means is that the individuals believed in it enough to die for it...that doesn't serve as a proof of their beliefs' truth.
poptart wrote:You don't care about the final words of Jesus.
.... or perhaps think they were never said, I dunno.
Jesus told
his Apostles/Disciples, in a time of primitive communication, to spread the word. He didn't authorize Jesuits to torture and kill aboriginal peoples who refused to convert, he didn't authorize the Dominican Order to torture and kill Jews who refused to convert, he didn't authorize his followers to kill men, women, and children who didn't quite have the same way of expressing their Christianity (e.g., the Albigensian Crusade), and he didn't authorize the old biddies down the block to freaking ring my doorbell every week and pester me to accept THEIR version of Christianity. However, each and every one of the aformentioned examples has been legitimized by Christ's followers as "following his last command."
Maybe I should ask them to swallow some arsenic to prove their credentials. Or speak a language in which they've never had formal training. No Holy Spirit powers? You're a fraud and must get off my porch.
Like I said, pop, neither I nor anyone I run with believes that 100% acceptance of the scientific/historical claims in the Bible is necessary for belief in Christ. We know enough religious history to know how the books of the canon were assembled by committee to jibe with the "powers that be." There's a great deal of beauty in the Bible as compiled and there are great truths in it, but it takes an adult, discerning faith to wade through the tome to see the "Big Picture."
In my opinion, folks who turn around and say "you must buy every letter, every syllable, as the full unvarnished, accurate truth, no matter what science and historians show you" are childlike, credulous dolts desperate to cling to a black-and-white, Santa Claus-level, religious and intellectual world. Mental midgets, every last one of them.
If someone asks why I believe, I just say "faith" and leave it at that. I refuse to whip out a Bible to defend my views, given that all someone has to do is poke the same holes in it that I already have. I didn't witness the events claimed in the NT, I don't buy a lot of the mythological stuff that well-meaning but primitive folks wrote down...and yet, I believe in the divinity of Christ. That drives both fundy folks AND atheists nuts. That means I'm doing something right.
I also refuse to prosyletize (heck, aside from these spirited exchanges, I don't even usually discuss my faith with folks). If folks want to understand how my faith works, they should just see how my family and I live our lives, treat other folks, and leave it at that.
THE BIBLE - Because all the works of all the science cannot equal the wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.
