And he should have resigned the next day

[poptart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM


'Pastors' the largest congregation in the United States and yet doesn't have balls, brains, or faith enough to stand on the message of Christ.

Wolf in sheep's clothing.

He didn't resign, but the congregation should have off'd him the next day.

Simply unconscionable.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

Yes, he must be beheaded.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

BTW, didn't your Christian President say in 2004 that we all pray to the same God?

[poptart]

I'm not here to talk politics.
But since you took my wonderful thread on a side path I will entertain you with a short take.

Bush is a phony baloney.
Goes with the territory.
If he wasn't, he wouldn't be the prez, ya know .... ?
All 'modern' presidents have played politics with issues of faith.

Has he received Jesus Christ ... ?
I dunno.
I can't say for sure.

[PSUFAN]

are there signs of tearing?

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

I'm not here to talk politics.
But since you took my wonderful thread on a side path I will entertain you with a short take.

Bush is a phony baloney.
Goes with the territory.
If he wasn't, he wouldn't be the prez, ya know .... ?
All 'modern' presidents have played politics with issues of faith.

Has he received Jesus Christ ... ?
I dunno.
I can't say for sure.

Maybe it's time we all started getting our houses in order.

[Q, West Coast Style]

He didn't resign, but the congregation should have off'd him the next day

poptart is a bad person.

[poptart]

I'm not saying they should have off'd him .... like in KILLING him.
They church council should have demanded that he resign.
If he failed to resign then they should have fired him.

Pretty silly of God to send Jesus to suffer and die if all man has to do to inherit God's Kingdom is have a 'good heart.'

Man's is born sinful from Adam's seed.
He is not born God's child, and he is spiritually dead.
He WILL never be God's child .... without taking the Christ.

Maybe I'm too hard on ol' Joel though.
I mean, folksy 'pastor' Fraudsteen has a lot of books to sell to a wide audience, and he can't go around pissing off muslims, atheists, Jews, hindus, non-believers, etc.....

Evangelism's rising star ... ?
Bwaaa hahaha

Evangelist ... ?
Nope.

Why is the American Church dying ... ?
It's led by douchebags like Joel.

[rozy]

I'm not saying they should have off'd him .... like in KILLING him.
They church council should have demanded that he resign.
If he failed to resign then they should have fired him.

Pretty silly of God to send Jesus to suffer and die if all man has to do to inherit God's Kingdom is have a 'good heart.'

Man's is born sinful from Adam's seed.
He is not born God's child, and he is spiritually dead.
He WILL never be God's child .... without taking the Christ.

Maybe I'm too hard on ol' Joel though.
I mean, folksy 'pastor' Fraudsteen has a lot of books to sell to a wide audience, and he can't go around pissing off muslims, atheists, Jews, hindus, non-believers, etc.....

Evangelism's rising star ... ?
Bwaaa hahaha

Evangelist ... ?
Nope.

Why is the American Church dying ... ?
It's led by douchebags like Joel.

RACK

I accidentally landed on Ch. 14 the other night and Joel was speaking on "love one another as you love yourself" and stated the first prerequisite for having a full life is that you love yourself. Interesting miscontextual (and heretical) interpretation. Of course, I don't know where he went from there as I was no longer remaining on Ch. 14...

[Diogenes]

http://www.av1611.org/osteen.html

[poptart]

Osteen's explanation for his answers to Larry King are absurd.
Only after he read the transcript did he come to realize that he had blatently and repeatedly denied Jesus Christ on national television ... ?
Bwahahaha
Osteen would have us believe that he's near brain-dead then, as Larry King REPEATEDLY prodded him to clarify his position on how one attains salvation.

[Diogenes]

The guy is basicly Tony Robbins with a pulpit. And there is no reason to expect his non-denominational congregation to take any action, not taking a stand on anything is what non-denominationalists stand for.

Appearantly Lakewood in Greek is Laodicea.

[poptart]

http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=axxlXy6bLH0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[battery chucka' one]

The guy is basicly Tony Robbins with a pulpit. And there is no reason to expect his non-denominational congregation to take any action, not taking a stand on anything is what non-denominationalists stand for.

Appearantly Lakewood in Greek is Laodicea.

I totally and wholeheartedly disagree with you here, my friend. I've attended three churches over the past seventeen years. All three were and are non-denominational. All three were and are absolutely Bible based. All three stood and stand on Christ's Word and Christ's Word alone. All stood and stand up to injustice and would have been outraged to hear what this guy said.

I've never attended a megachurch and think that the idea is somewhat impersonal. Some are quite good. My wife says that Willow Creek (Chicago) and Saddleback (Lake Forest, California) are two that are quite well Biblically based. I can't vouch for Lakewood, however if this guy was my minister, and I heard him say such things, and he didn't come up with an adequate explanation for his reasons for answering such, I would either 1) push to have him fired or 2) find another church. Just my two cents.

[poptart]

I attended Lakewood Church a few time both when Joel was pastoring and earlier when his father, John Osteen, was still pastoring.
The church was a little better off when his father was the pastor because John O. used to actually speak about the Gospel some from the pulpit.
Joel almost never does.

A true pastor must raise disciples -- to continue the Gospel movement into the future.
Joel will raise disciples ... who ignore the Gospel, as he does.
A recipe for certain failure in the long run.
No doubt about it.

A healthy and 'correct' church will continue to speak of Christ (because every answer is in Him), and to speak of the very core of the Bible.

Core:

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

1John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

[battery chucka' one]

From what I understand of this guy (via wikipedia), he likes to focus on God's love and not dwell too much on sin. Ignoring sin takes away the reason why Jesus came and died on the cross. If you think you have no need for a savior, then why would you need Christ? Very irresponsible.

From what you say, Pop, this is an incredibly seeker friendly church with an ear pleasing candy man at the pulpit. Faith as deep as a puddle of spit. Pretty worthless for the Kingdom.

[rozy]

From what I understand of this guy (via wikipedia), he likes to focus on God's love and not dwell too much on sin. Ignoring sin takes away the reason why Jesus came and died on the cross. If you think you have no need for a savior, then why would you need Christ? Very irresponsible.

From what you say, Pop, this is an incredibly seeker friendly church with an ear pleasing candy man at the pulpit. Faith as deep as a puddle of spit. Pretty worthless for the Kingdom.

That pretty much nails it.

[Felix]

They church council should have demanded that he resign.
If he failed to resign then they should have fired him.

yeah that whole "who I am to judge what's in a person's heart" is pure heresy...crucify him

A healthy and 'correct' church will continue to speak of Christ (because every answer is in Him), and to speak of the very core of the Bible.

and any that don't believe exactly as you and your ilk do should be cast into the fires of hell to suffer eternal torture at the hands of a loving god....pretty "christian" of you tart

I know you want to believe there's a special place reserved only for you and the rest of the chosen people

but.....

[Nacho]

Why do you have so much hate in your heart Felix?

[Felix]

Why do you have so much hate in your heart Felix?

the thing I despise (not hate) is the arrogance of so called Christians believing that they have some sort of stairway to the heavens and everybody that doesn't believe what they believe is simply shit out of luck

If you can't see the pure, unadulterated audacity of that kind of thinking, well there's simply no hope for you

[battery chucka' one]

Felix, you've made your choice and have chosen your final judgement. I pray you eventually accept Christ, but as of right now, you've implicitly told God to go ahead and punch your ticket to hell after your death. He will honor that choice. I pray your choice changes before that time.

[battery chucka' one]

you've implicitly told God

Who? You mean your imaginary fantasy friend?

Hey, my friend. I see you're still a walking, talking contradiction.

You also have made your choice and, as thus, have told your Maker that you choose hell after you die. Unfortunate, yes. However, you chose it. Therefore, you will have no problems with Him honoring your decision. I pray that you change your decision as to where you spend eternity. However, if you don't, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Sad, really.

I wonder how you will be if/when your daughter brings home a Christian boyfriend. What about when she becomes a Christian, herself. Will you still be so bold in your statements? Interesting questions, eh?

[Felix]

Felix, you've made your choice and have chosen your final judgement.

no I haven't...it's your loving god that's going to cast me into hell...it's all "his" choice...why do you let "him" off the hook like that it's entirely up to "him"

but as of right now, you've implicitly told God to go ahead and punch your ticket to hell after your death.

I've done no such thing...

He will honor that choice.

see, there you go speaking for god again

go fuck yourself

[poptart]

They church council should have demanded that he resign.
If he failed to resign then they should have fired him.

yeah that whole "who I am to judge what's in a person's heart" is pure heresy...crucify him

lol

The pastor went on national television and denied Christ.
The congregation, who, btw, pays Osteen's salary and supports he and his family, should certainly expect him to forfeit his position as pastor.

Why should the congregation want or expect for a person who holds such a view to LEAD the church?

It's wack.

Sure, a pastor might hold some theological views which don't mesh with what all of the congregation thinks, BUT, to fundamentally deny Jesus Christ is not on that list.

Joel could be free to come to church, but to lead the church?

No way, it's just completely ridiculous.

[Felix]

The pastor went on national television and denied Christ.[/qote]

huh? I've watched those tapes three times and never heard any such thing

to fundamentally deny Jesus Christ is not on that list.

again HUH?

How does "I'm going to leave that up to God" equate to denying god

[poptart]

Maybe you need to look at the clips again, Felix.

Osteen tried to worm around and talk out of both sides of his mouth.
I guess he befuddled you.

King asked him point blank if a Muslim or Jew who never accepts Christ can have eternal life, and Osteen said ... 'I don't know.'

I don't know??? LOL

King recognized how wack Osteen was and kept pressing him to explain himself, but Osteen would not make the very simple statement that the Bible clearly tells us that one is saved ONLY through Jesus Christ.

[Felix]

I don't know??? LOL

King recognized how wack Osteen was and kept pressing him to explain himself, but Osteen would not make the very simple statement that the Bible clearly tells us that one is saved ONLY through Jesus Christ.

but of course, you know exactly who "god" is sending to hell and who gets into heaven because you've got some sort of pipeline to the almighty

and people wonder why I hate the arrogance of christians

[battery chucka' one]

I don't know??? LOL

King recognized how wack Osteen was and kept pressing him to explain himself, but Osteen would not make the very simple statement that the Bible clearly tells us that one is saved ONLY through Jesus Christ.

but of course, you know exactly who "god" is sending to hell and who gets into heaven because you've got some sort of pipeline to the almighty

and people wonder why I hate the arrogance of christians

Okay. Let me explain this for you. There are two paths. One is Christ's (aka God's). This path gets you to heaven. God Himself said this. The other is any other way. This one doesn't get you to heaven. By choosing any other way than God's, you choose this path. It leads to damnation. Bottom line is, you choose it. If you don't choose God, He honors your choice. How hard is this for you, really?

Is it that tough? Perhaps you might currently be making the wrong choice. Ever thought of that? I know that I'm not. How sure are you in your choice? 100%? Are you willing to stake your eternity on it? I am. Again, I pray your choice changes.

[Felix]

Perhaps you might currently be making the wrong choice. Ever thought of that? I know that I'm not.

you're making the right choices according to who-a group of superstitious bumpkins not far removed from Cro-Magnon man that used to live to the ripe old age of 925?

fuck you you pompous windbag

[battery chucka' one]

Okay. Let me explain this for you. There are two paths. One is Christ's (aka God's). This path gets you to heaven. God Himself said this. The other is any other way. This one doesn't get you to heaven. By choosing any other way than God's, you choose this path. It leads to damnation. Bottom line is, you choose it. If you don't choose God, He honors your choice. How hard is this for you, really?

You are such a pathetically deluded, ignorant fuck, I almost pity you.

Religion is nothing more or less than a system of behavioral control operating on a societal level. It exploits fear and guilt in order to manipulate behavior. Of course there is no deeper fear than the fear of death so correct behavior gets you an eternal reward while incorrect behavior gets you eternal damnation and ignorant fuckwits such as yourself dance to the tune like a puppet on a string.

You don't know anything. As a brainwashed simpleton, you aren't even capable of knowing anything. You simply lack the education and ability to think or reason in a critical manner. You have been deliberately crippled.

I'm sorry. Perhaps you read my comments wrong. I'm not about religion at all. In fact, religion has very little (if anything) to do with anything in which I believe. Maybe that's where we are having a disconnect.

Again, however, you and Felix have both made your choices. Nice to know that you are both prepared for God's honoring of your choices.

It's obvious, MVScal, that you have little conviction in your beliefs. If you did, you wouldn't get so upset. As a result, your insecurity gets the best of you.

That all aside, I still love you both and pray both of you find Christ. Perhaps this site could help you. http://www.notreligion.com/

[battery chucka' one]

I'm not about religion at all. In fact, religion has very little (if anything) to do with anything in which I believe.

Oh...OK. You just pray to Jesus and go to church and prattle on constantly about "god"...but you aren't about religion at all.

Yeah, you're right. None of that is about religion. Perhaps you should actually understand what being a Christian is all about before you insult it with such venomous ignorance. Just a thought.

[Goober McTuber]

Brer mvscal and the Tard-Baby. Amusing.

[Tom In VA]

I'm not about religion at all. In fact, religion has very little (if anything) to do with anything in which I believe.

Oh...OK. You just pray to Jesus and go to church and prattle on constantly about "god"...but you aren't about religion at all.

You are a fucking tard as well as a bald faced liar.

Umm not really.

One can believe God exists, that Jesus was in fact sent down to fullfill a prophecy and a covenant between God and God's creation and NOT be religious.

While religion is based on notions and beliefs of a supreme being/beings, the actual entity(ies) believed to exist and the believers exist outside of the need of a "religion".

Religion, is centered on these beliefs and of course have at times, used those beliefs and notions to exploit and oppress - as you contend. This is true, there is no debate.

At least in my interpretation, Christ himself, took umbrage at such a perversion. That the self appointed ecclesiastical elite would abuse their power and vainly (and in futility) warp man's relationship with God. That rather than serve and guide, the institutions and it's custodians, put themselves - almost above the very God(s) they claim to worship and seek.

Christ's humble revolution that eventually became Christianity is not unlike the alleged story of Sidhartha(sp?) and his disilliusionment with the Hindu Brahmin. From that, Buddism was born.

Your issues with Religion are founded in historical fact, no debate there. Your issues with those that believe, at times is disconcerting, but understood and respected as a valid opinion.

We just agree to disagree on this matter. I've met many a person, firm and devout in their beliefs that are logical, intelligent, and driven more by an astute awareness of God's grace - as opposed to fear of retribution and some desire for immortality.

[battery chucka' one]

Tom said it well.

A simple way to put it is this:

Religion=man's attempt to get closer to God

Christ=God's attempt to bring man closer to Him

If you feel that my going to church constitutes me being 'religious', then you have no idea what being a Christian is about and are blind as to the meaning of the word. Going to church gets me neither closer to Heaven nor more deserving of salvation. Christ does both of those. My acceptance of Him gains me both gifts, undeserved and unearned as they are for/by me. All is about relationship with my Deity (Christ). Not my religious works. That help any?

[battery chucka' one]

One can believe God exists, that Jesus was in fact sent down to fullfill a prophecy and a covenant between God and God's creation and NOT be religious.

Uh...no, you can't. Then again Christians believe in immaculate conception which prepares them well to accept all sorts of nonsensical ideas.

If you think you can hold religious beliefs and go to church and not be religious, you're a fucking idiot or you are lying to yourself and, again, Christianity prepares you well for both idiocy and self-delusion.

And why are you, a card carrying atheist, somehow an expert on the definition of a Christian? I really think you have no idea. It's not your fault. I believe you just don't know any better. I pray you understand the truth one day. Perhaps today is the day.

[poptart]

Both side are 'right' in this discussion.

The human need for verbal or written 'classification' leads people to label Christianity a religion.

But as is accurately pointed out, the faith in the risen Christ is just that ... a faith.
Nothing at all religious about it.

[Tom In VA]

One can believe God exists, that Jesus was in fact sent down to fullfill a prophecy and a covenant between God and God's creation and NOT be religious.

Uh...no, you can't.

Text book definition of "religion" you'd be correct. But we know what you're referring to when YOU say "religion" and you don't hide your cards at all. It's Christianity that bothers you.

You seem to have a hard-on for Christians, which I find interesting coming from you, because if it wasn't for the "evil" and "good" spread by Christianity, the society and culture you celebrate wouldn't exist the way it does now.

We all have our paradoxical views, yourself included, it's part of human fallibility and the inability for the incomplete to fully understand, the complete.

Your objectivity is always refreshing, though. Admittedly, I am biased. From my perception, I have seen the power of faith, hope and love of very devout followers of Christ. While I am more than qualified to accept your assessment of one who is idiotic and self-delusional - I have witnessed those falling the same accursed states - overcome them with faith and devout following of God as they understood Him.

We may argue semantics, but I cannot argue with tangible results, perhaps that means I'm making progress towards being less idiotic and self-delusional.

[Goober McTuber]

Text book definition of "religion" you'd be correct.

By any definition of religion. Listen to yourself. You're talking about prophecies, covenants and all sorts of other mystical mumbo jumbo.

That is religion. Why would you deny it? My guess is that, deep inside, you know it's all bullshit. You've never seen god. You've never heard god. You've never known anyone who has. You are petrified that there is nothing beyond your death or the deaths of your loved ones so you comfort yourself with a fantasy begun by Bronze Age goat herders.

Sure it makes for an interesting study, but to sincerely believe such infantile rubbish is laughable.

All righty, then. See you in church.

[battery chucka' one]

Text book definition of "religion" you'd be correct.

By any definition of religion. Listen to yourself. You're talking about prophecies, covenants and all sorts of other mystical mumbo jumbo.

That is religion. Why would you deny it? My guess is that, deep inside, you know it's all bullshit. You've never seen god. You've never heard god. You've never known anyone who has. You are petrified that there is nothing beyond your death or the deaths of your loved ones so you comfort yourself with a fantasy begun by Bronze Age goat herders.

Sure it makes for an interesting study, but to sincerely believe such infantile rubbish is laughable.

You really have no idea of the immense difference between religion and a relationship with Christ, do you? I feel really sad for the level of your naivet'e. Is it deliberate?

[battery chucka' one]

Any "relationship with Christ" is by definition religious in nature. It is a simple fact. You do speak English, don't you?

Again, you're wrong. Very sad.