Unions. Are the costing their members jobs...

[Left Seater]

Not trying to start a flame war or left vs right, just want opinions on the subject.

Are unions with the hard line stances today costing their members some of their jobs? Right now we all know about the high price of fuel and the trouble that is costing everyone in the transportation industry. Airlines are prolly hurting the most right now, but so are others. Many unions are refusing to meet with management and as such we are seeing huge layoffs of pilots, waitresses, and mechanics.

On a personal level I have seen union membership cost a person her job. In my previous role as a pilot for a government contractor based in the Northeast the company pilots had a secretary. She was in a secretaries union and her salary was based on her years of experience. We also had a part time secretary who was going to school. We called the secretary "not my job" based on her lack of motivation. We got more work from the part time student with a better attitude than the full time secretary. It got so bad that we ended up voting to eliminate her job since she did so little work anyway and brought in another part time student. The union of course filed a grievance saying we were trying to break the union and for age discrimination. They claimed we got rid of her to save money due to her huge salary. We won because we had saved plenty of emails and voice messages with "not my job" on it.

The bottom line was not money, it was productivity. Had the employee or the union taken on more work, the employee would have been rewarded and compensated as such. Hell, pilots were offering to pay her out of their pockets bonuses to do her job. In the end the employee lost a job and the union lost dues, will this change?

Will unions ever move to a performance based system? Now the reward time instead of production. I would bet that unions will continue to see rolls drop as long as they continue to hold the old line.

[Mikey]

It doesn't sound like the Union cost her her job. It sounds more like her shitty attitude and not doing assigned work were what cost her the job. The Union stepped in to protect her and lost, rightfully so it seems. I don't see how that equates to the Union costing her the job, though.

[Left Seater]

Prior to us letting her go we had contacted the union about a replacement or changing work rules. No go. So we then acted.

Sorry I guess this was a part of the discussion I shouldn't have left out.

[BSmack]

That anybody has a "secretary" in the day of personal desktop computing is absolutely laughable. Did you guys have her around to run the mimeograph machine? Did she take dictation? Was she a wiz at shorthand?

[LTS TRN 2]

L-seat, you're offering a fake argument. I'm sure hacks like Rusp Limpdick would give you "dittos," and a perposterous fraud such as Ayn Rand might rant in an essay to the same effect, and the entire WlaMart family would enthusiastically agree: Unions Bad! But the argument in fact has nothing to do with one worker, or one union, or one industry. Rather, there is a clear and broad principle to the effect that unions have proven to be the most important feature of modern society rising out of its fuedal past--and the degree into which it can rather easily be pulled back. That is, the argument is far larger and more essential than you, it would appear, are prepared to discuss.

Death to Rampant Corporatism

[Derron]

Unions costing people their jobs ??

Lose your pressurization on the last run ?

How about the unions increasing costs so much that companies have no choice but to out source and reduce ?

I am going to assume that the lazy slunt was working for private enterprise, because if she had been a government employee she would still be telling you "ez not my yob", and every time you tried to get her ran, the union would save her ass and file a motion to protect her lazy ass, and this thread would have never happened.

In the case of public agencies ( see the school thread below), how about unions preserving jobs that result in labor being over 80% of a total given agencies budget due to the health care for the entire fucking family..the fully non employee funded retirement, and for what.?? The public leaches to do half the work of a private employer ??

At least in union private construction jobs you have to work and produce. You don't your ass is gone. In the public sector, those employees could fuck a dog in the ass at high noon in front of City Hall, and not even get a letter in their file, and probably file a workmen's comp claim on straining their back.

In todays business world, we are all looking for a machine, a new process, a new system, so we can keep our labor cost as low as possible. Unions have their place, it is being reduced every day, but the public unions are the biggest contributors to employee inefficiency there is.

[BSmack]

That anybody has a "secretary" in the day of personal desktop computing is absolutely laughable.

Sincerely,

Entry level flunky

We have 10 project managers and as many department managers & director level managers in the building I work in. Not a one of them has a secretary. Not ONE.

[M Club]

how da fuck do we posta fight unions?

[Left Seater]

We have 10 project managers and as many department managers & director level managers in the building I work in. Not a one of them has a secretary. Not ONE.

Right and how many of them don't know in what city they will spend the night tonight? How many don't know the next time they will be home? How many get a call at 3:30 in the morning to tell them to be ready to fly in 2.5 hours because some project manager, dept manager, or director decided three hours ago they need to be somewhere else?

Sorry but I can't just whip out a cell phone and make a hotel and car res from the front end of the plane at 41,000 ft.

[Cuda]

how da fuck do we posta fight unions?

that gets a rack

[Mr. Schwump]

Year 2008:
Secretary = Administrative Assistant

[Terry in Crapchester]

That anybody has a "secretary" in the day of personal desktop computing is absolutely laughable.

You'd be amazed at the number of law firms that still employ secretaries.

For me personally, I'm in court more often than not, so I'm not actually at my office very many hours of the day. Yes, I suppose you could use voice mail, cell phones (although you can't answer those in Court, lest you invoke the wrath of the judge), etc. But sometimes a client just wants to hear a human voice so that he/she doesn't feel as though he/she is being ignored. And yes, I could leave dictation for a secretary, so that correspondence and such could get out a little faster than if I did it myself.

If not for the fact that I'm just starting up, I probably would employ a secretary. Right now, though, a secretary's salary would eat up too much of the profits.

[BSmack]

That anybody has a "secretary" in the day of personal desktop computing is absolutely laughable.

You'd be amazed at the number of law firms that still employ secretaries.

Since law firms can, and have been some of the most technologically backwards places in these United States, I'm hardly surprised. There's probably guys in the EOB in Rochester that still don't have a computer in their office.

For me personally, I'm in court more often than not, so I'm not actually at my office very many hours of the day. Yes, I suppose you could use voice mail, cell phones (although you can't answer those in Court, lest you invoke the wrath of the judge), etc. But sometimes a client just wants to hear a human voice so that he/she doesn't feel as though he/she is being ignored.

Every office needs someone who can answer the phone. Sometimes that's a receptionist. But in a small office, that can also be a paralegal. If you want someone talking to your client who has a working knowledge of the case and can make the feel better about their impending prison sentence, I would think that when the time comes to add to your payroll that you would be hiring a paralegal (preferably one with a notary stamp) who is also willing to answer phones.

And yes, I could leave dictation for a secretary, so that correspondence and such could get out a little faster than if I did it myself.

How is it possible that it would be quicker for your to dictate a letter than to simply type it out on a keyboard? What? Do you type 2 words a minute? Have you ever tried voice recognition software on your computer? That might also be a way around your problem.

If not for the fact that I'm just starting up, I probably would employ a secretary. Right now, though, a secretary's salary would eat up too much of the profits.

Of course it would. And if you're like every other lawyer in private practice I've ever known, you'll avoid hiring office help until you are completely overwhelmed by your caseload.

[Derron]

And if you're like every other lawyer in private practice I've ever known, you'll avoid hiring office help until you are completely overwhelmed by your caseload.

And that would be about the time most attorneys are indicted for theft, conversion and other assorted crimes involving clients funds, then beg workload and office problems for taking Granny's 1 million in retirement funds, and taking the clients lawsuit settlement to the casino, or putting it up their nose.

[Derron]

At least in union private construction jobs you have to work and produce. You don't your ass is gone. In the public sector, those employees could fuck a dog in the ass at high noon in front of City Hall, and not even get a letter in their file, and probably file a workmen's comp claim on straining their back.

Uh...Derron.

Don't you have this backwards? Hasn't it traditionally been the union employee that is the lazy scallawag that doesn't know shit about their trade, demands more compensation than they're worth, and cries foul at the slightest hint that they're not all they believe they are?

At least this is the way it seems to be in metalworking, defence, aerospace, etc.

In a union shop, for every decent and hardworking employee, there are usually 50 pieces of refuse that would be incapable of washing dishes or stocking shelves at Walmart...should they find themselves tossed out on their ass, as they so rightfully deserve.

Read the fucking post you idiot....what part of context don't you get?

A lot of union employees are lazy no good carpet baggers. But the majority of the truly incompetents are in public service. The last time I was on a union job site, and not to work since we are non union----if you were fucking off on a union construction site, your ass could get ran before lunch.

Pay attention to public workers around your city ?/ The ones who stand 5 to a bunch looking down a hole finger fucking themselves for an hour ? Or that sleep in the shade tree while others work ? Try that on a iron workers- steamfitters-flat work job site.

Get it now ?? The majority of the fuck off's are in PUBLIC SERVICE. Where virtually every labor job outside of management is covered by union representation. That is is why they get guaranteed COLA's, that usually exceed CPI, they get full family medical, they get 6% or more retirement paid by their employer, AND they now demand and GET wages comparable to private union jobs. Sweeettttt deal eh ?

That being said... Boeing just laid it out for their workers. Of course most of them will be laid off before they have a chance to get to year 2 since Boeing don't have a prayer on the new tanker contract and the Dreamliner will like be delayed or cost over run big time.

Even so, the Boeing deal is the exception, and rivals a lot of public jobs.



http://www.oregonlive.com/business/inde ... _cont.html

[Terry in Crapchester]

For me personally, I'm in court more often than not, so I'm not actually at my office very many hours of the day. Yes, I suppose you could use voice mail, cell phones (although you can't answer those in Court, lest you invoke the wrath of the judge), etc. But sometimes a client just wants to hear a human voice so that he/she doesn't feel as though he/she is being ignored.

Every office needs someone who can answer the phone. Sometimes that's a receptionist. But in a small office, that can also be a paralegal. If you want someone talking to your client who has a working knowledge of the case and can make the feel better about their impending prison sentence, I would think that when the time comes to add to your payroll that you would be hiring a paralegal (preferably one with a notary stamp) who is also willing to answer phones.

Yes, a paralegal would add some value that a secretary would not. But a paralegal also would come at a higher asking price.

Btw, many legal secretaries are notaries as well. Tell me you knew.

And yes, I could leave dictation for a secretary, so that correspondence and such could get out a little faster than if I did it myself.

How is it possible that it would be quicker for your to dictate a letter than to simply type it out on a keyboard? What? Do you type 2 words a minute? Have you ever tried voice recognition software on your computer? That might also be a way around your problem.

I actually type about 60-70 words per minute -- faster than most in the general population, although probably a little slower than your typical legal secretary. I've never timed my own speaking, but I would venture a guess that if I speak at my ordinary rate, I probably speak about 3 times as fast as that.

From a time standpoint, the bigger problem is what I mentioned before -- that I'm usually at my office no more than a few hours a day. If I had a secretary, I could leave dictation for her while I'm out, and (hopefully) it would be done when I got back. Not to mention that I don't have to be tethered to a computer to dictate. I can dictate from anywhere, even from my car, which I've done on more than one occasion.

[Diego in Seattle]

You folks who say no to unions, especially in regards to aerospace work, need to look into how much non-union aerospace workers get paid. It ain't even close.