Look for 5 times the number of ejections in CFB this season

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed May 27, 2009 3:53 pm

I just got back from one of the preseason college football officials meetings. Not as many rule changes this season as in years past but one that will likely get fans of "thug" players or teams all upset.

Now we are being asked to toss players from games who commit flagrant personal fouls. Most of these are hits above the shoulders. Two examples many of you might have seen from last season that were on the video were a Texas Tech hit on Colt McCoy in last years Texas v Texas Tech game. Colt was standing after throwing a deep pass and was hit helmet to helmet and then driven into the turf. A flag was thrown for roughing. This year that would still be roughing, but it would also lead to an ejection. The difference being that the contact came a full two seconds after the pass was thrown. The other was in an LSU game where the LSU safety came up to the pile at full speed after the whistle, left his feet and launched himself into one of the guys trying to pull a teammate off the pile. Again a PF was called, and this year that would get an ejection.

The other rule change is protection of the punter on those stupid rolling punt plays. If the punter elects to run to his left or right and then punt the ball he will lose all protection. So look for far fewer of these plays this season as it will give the return team the ability to destroy the punter in these situations. The thought was it is too much of an advantage for the punting team as the punter runs towards the LOS. He can keep running if there is room or punt the ball and then draw contact which might lead to a first down by penalty. Now you either punt from the normal position or you run it at your punter's risk.

Also one rule that was highly debated and not acted upon this season is unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. Much thought was given to calling them live ball fouls which would negate the score and then the penalty would be enforced from the spot of the foul. That would make a huge change in taunting fouls.

Finally the rule book will only be changed every two years, not yearly as is currently the case. This is one reason why you wont see the above rule changed until 2011. At that time though expect it to happen.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:05 pm

So, wait. Willl these changes go into effect this season, or in 2011?

Also, will the teams themselves receive the same film primer you refs received? During the pre-seasaon will the thugs get it drilled into their heads that things are different now, or will it simply be more of a memo sent to the coaches situation?

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed May 27, 2009 4:56 pm

The rule changes above are for this season. The unsportsmanlike calls as live ball fouls will be in 2011.

Yes, the officials, coaches, ADs, and conference offices all get copies of this video. The coaches can show it to their players as often as they see fit. Remember it is the coaches who make the rules and guide us on the interpretation. Mike Bellotti (sp?) at Oregon was one of the main drivers on the ejection thing.

The other place the thugs will get to practice this is in fall camp. Most schools bring in officials from the local area to have them call things as they will durning the regular season. Expect more flags in such situations and more yelling from coaches during the fall camp.

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:33 pm

Left Seater wrote:The other rule change is protection of the punter on those stupid rolling punt plays. If the punter elects to run to his left or right and then punt the ball he will lose all protection.

I had always thought they were fair game if they ran, but I definitely like this rule.

Laxplayer · Post by **Laxplayer** » Wed May 27, 2009 5:45 pm

lefty, check your PM......

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Wed May 27, 2009 7:40 pm

Lefty, will the referee be able to use instant replay to determine if a player committing a penalty of that nature is kicked out of the game or not?

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Wed May 27, 2009 8:57 pm

No. A personal foul is a judgement call. Doesn't involve fumble, down, catch, no catch, sideline, spot, endlines, etc.

Don't worry though the shots we saw on video were very clear cut. Since we are graded on each and every call or non call guys will only toss players who were way out of line and looking to hurt others. The conference office and the school will review the tape with the said player and the official will have to review the tape seperately with the conference office.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Fri May 29, 2009 12:24 am

Funny that they showed those hits as examples of dirty plays. Penn State fans have been crying about Taylor Mays hit in the Rose Bowl since 2 seconds after the hit and it was clean, Mays got him with his shoulder, not his helmet.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:33 am

That was a totally egregious hit, even if he missed with the helmet.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:40 am

helmet to helmet at .42 IMO.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:15 am

Mays hit him with the shoulder pads, crown of his his helmet never contacted the PSU players helmet. that was a clean hit.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Fri May 29, 2009 11:37 am

King Crimson wrote:helmet to helmet at .42 IMO.

Yup, looks pretty blatant to me.

Terry in Crapchester · Fri May 29, 2009 12:01 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
King Crimson wrote:helmet to helmet at .42 IMO.
Yup, looks pretty blatant to me.

Third. Would Schmick be defending this if it didn't involve USC?

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Fri May 29, 2009 12:42 pm

Terry in Crapchester wrote:Would Schmick be defending this if it didn't involve USC?

Rhetorical question says what?

socal · Post by **socal** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 pm

Freeze it at 40 seconds. Helmet to helmet on the Penn St. player. No question.

No question SoCalTrojan is a douche, either.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:30 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:Funny that they showed those hits as examples of dirty plays. Penn State fans have been crying about Taylor Mays hit in the Rose Bowl since 2 seconds after the hit and it was clean, Mays got him with his shoulder, not his helmet.

In no way was that hit clean. That was helmet to helmet and correctly drew a flag. That is still a flag and always will be against that DB.

Under the new rules I don't think that DB gets ejected though. He would still be flagged for the personal foul, but no way to know for sure that dude was trying to injure when that happens at full speed. Now if that was his second helmet to helmet hit of the game, then yeah, no problem tossing the guy out of the game for that hit. One could be an accident, two is a pattern and gets you run.

How can you say that is a clean hit SoCalTrjn? There is no way you can say their helmets didn't touch.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri May 29, 2009 7:42 pm

Lefty, a question about the helmet to helmet rule...

The defender leads with his shoulder, for a clean hit to the receiver's upper body. The receiver sees or feels him coming, and the receiver recoils, in anticipation of the hit. In doing so, the receiver lowers his head and shoulders, and now the defender's head is lined up to make contact with the receiver's head. The defender has already committed himself.

It all happens in a split second and bam, the defender goes helmet to helmet with the receiver. I'm not talking about hitting the receiver two seconds later, blatantly going head hunting.

I've seen countless times where the above scenario occured. Something that was going to be a clean hit became a head to head hit, due to a last second movement reaction by the receiver.

What's the rule there?

Oh, and for the record, when I watch the slow-mo section of the Mays hit, between :38 and :43 seconds, it sure looks like Mays slightly turns and dips his right shoulder forward, like he's trying to lead with his shoulder. The receiver starts off high, but just when Mays enters the picture the receiver is beginning to slide just a little bit lower. That little bit of downward movement by the receiver turned what was intended to be a shoulder to upper body hit into a combined shoulder and head hit to the receiver's head.

Mays came in too high, though. Even if the receiver hadn't slid down that little bit Mays was going to be cutting it too close to committing a shoulder to head hit, which is still illegal.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Fri May 29, 2009 10:01 pm

Ask yourself one question when you see a hit like we are discussing. Did the defender see what he was hitting?

Did you ever play football? If so the above question will make more sense. When you tackle you are taught to hit with your facemask, not the crown or top of the helmet. So that is the question I ask myself when I see a play like that. If the contact by the defender is made with the facemask and not the crown then he will get the benefit of the doubt. If the contact is with the crown then no benefit of the doubt in the situation you describe.

Bottom line though defenders should be aiming for the numbers, not the shoulders, so as you point out the above is a foul either way.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:45 am

Terry in Crapchester wrote:
MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
King Crimson wrote:helmet to helmet at .42 IMO.
Yup, looks pretty blatant to me.
Third. Would Schmick be defending this if it didn't involve USC?

Would your wife protest your entry into the strip club? ;)

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sat May 30, 2009 4:55 am

SoCalTrjn wrote:Mays hit him with the shoulder pads, crown of his his helmet never contacted the PSU players helmet. that was a clean little league hit.

FTFY

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:38 am

SoCalTrjn wrote:Mays hit him with the shoulder pads, crown of his his helmet never contacted the PSU players helmet. that was a clean hit.

He still made some contact with his helmet and without a doubt led with his head. You don't duck your head down to hit a guy with your shoulder.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:16 am

Mays is 5 inches taller than Norwood, you do duck your head when youre hitting someone 5 inches shorter, first thing they teach you in micro football is to get your pad lower than the guy you're hitting. The contact is with his right shoulder pad and not his helmet

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat May 30, 2009 6:55 pm

Wrong. He hits his own teammate with his right shoulder. He hits the Penn State guy with his helmet.

Further when the contact is made dude is looking at the ground. Period. Penalty. Why is it not surprising everyone but you gets it.

Van · Post by **Van** » Sat May 30, 2009 7:39 pm

Lefty, so, the basic rule of thumb is that even if it's not a helmet to helmet shot it's a penalty if the defender leads with the crown of his helmet...

It's considered spearing, even if it's in the ribs, right?

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:12 pm

Ive watched it over and over, even bought the DVD of the game, Mays helmet never contacts norwood at all, Mays right shoulder pads hit the side of norwoods helmet but Mays helmet never hits him.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Sat May 30, 2009 9:16 pm

Toejam, that particular clip shows helmet to helmet contact. If you've got some other evidence to support your case, by all means, link us up.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:56 pm

Like I said above, the hit was totally egregious. Norwood was being tackled at that moment. mays hit him with the sole intention of hurting him - that's what it looks like to me, anyway. mays was so roided up that he lost perspective...that was a football game, one that was well in hand for his team. A sportsman doesn't look to hurt the opponent, a sportsman looks to perform well in the game setting. Just make the tackle and line up for the next play.

If I'm an NFL GM, and a scout shows me this clip, I don't look too kindly on it. It shows me a player who lacks discipline and control. I don't want players who will incur fines, try to end careers, and basically act to slow my team's momentum. That's exactly what that clip shows me.

King Crimson · Post by **King Crimson** » Sun May 31, 2009 5:09 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:Mays hit him with the shoulder pads, crown of his his helmet never contacted the PSU players helmet. that was a clean hit.

this is a false dilemma strategy (in Cicero's Ars Rhetorica), either the absence of the crown of the helmet or the shoulder pads. if not the former, then must be the latter.

Mays doesn't hit with the crown of the helmet, but it's helmet to helmet contact.

Van · Post by **Van** » Sun May 31, 2009 7:11 pm

PSU, now you're just going Dan Vogel. You're being completely naive, and totally disingenuous.

A defender's job is to hurt his opponent. He wants to send a message, and/or possibly jar the ball loose. Whenever possible, defenders blow up receivers. That's what they do. The hit a safety can put on a receiver is equivalent to being in a car wreck, or running full speed into a brick wall.

Blowing up a receiver is certainly designed to hurt the receiver, up to and including the risk of injury. Both the defender and the receiver know this, going in. It's the defender's job to use this ability to his team's advantage.

These days, no, defenders who see a chance to make a huge hit don't...

Just make the tackle and line up for the next play.

This is what defenders do, when presented with the opportunity...

Did the defender behave like a "sportsman" there? He could've simply wrapped up and brought Reggie to the turf.

No. He obliterated Reggie. He saw an opportunity, and he went for it. He attempted to jar the ball loose, and he attempted to put the fear of god into Reggie, for next time.

His teammates loved it. His coaches loved it. His GM loved it. Philly's fans loved it. You loved it, unless you were rooting for the Saints.

If a defender can cause a receiver to grow alligator arms, or to be reluctant to even go over the middle at all, that defender has done his job.

There's a very good reason nobody in the Pac 10 has tried to do much business in the middle against USC, especially deep over the middle, ever since Pete Carroll took over that team.

It's safeties like Kevin Ellison, and LBs like Rey Maualuga. Carroll specifically loads up on big hitters in the middle. By forcing receivers to think about maybe wanting to stick to the boundaries, where it's safer, Pete is able to shrink the field. This allows his superior athletes to initiate plays, rather than merely chase plays.

Kevin Ellison completely destroyed DeSean Jackson, a few years ago. Just lit him up, very early in the game. He didn't need to, either. He could've simply behaved like a "sportsman." He could've simply made the tackle on DeSean and then moved on to the next play.

Thing is, DeSean Jackson was Cal's most dangerous weapon. Going into that game, he was Cal's X Factor guy.

So, a message to DeSean Jackson was delivered...

"We are USC, and this is the Coliseum. Tonight, all you will know is fear. If I see you here again, I will kill you."

Following that play, which didn't draw a flag, DeSean Jackson turtled. He vanished. Cal's most important player became a complete non-factor, the entire game.

It wasn't the act of a "sportsman," Ellison's hit on Jackson, but Kevin Ellison did his job.

Yes, Taylor Mays came in too high on that one hit against Norwood, but by no stretch of the imagination has Mays ever been known as a dirty player. He's not prone to collecting personal foul penalties.

Come next spring, I guarantee you no NFL GM will be sitting there wringing his hands, debating whether to take a pass on Taylor Mays, for fear that Mays likes to hurt receivers.

Oh, hell no. Big hitters in the secondary are found gold. Guys like Ronnie Lott, John Lynch and Bob Sanders give a defense a very desirable identity.

Donnie Shell and Mel Blount, much? Troy Palomalu, ya' think?

Taylor Mays will be selected very early in the 1st round, precisely because he possesses both the ability and the will to hurt his opponent.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:06 am

Well, you may be right to a certain extent - but no way Mays had to lead with the helmet there. He was flagged, rightly so. Then again Norwood's about 5'6", so it's not as if Mays can bend over double to make the tackle while avoiding the helmet...

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:20 am

No, I agree. As I said earlier, Mays came in too high on that one. He left himself no room for error, and when Norwood slid down, just that little bit, that was all that was required for Mays to nail him in the head.

He definitely deserves the penalty there.

I do think though that repeated viewings of the slo-mo shot from :38 to :43 clearly show that Mays was attempting to turn his shoulder and lead with his shoulder. I still can't tell for certain whether his helmet really clocks Norwood's helmet, but it's clear that the crown of his helmet doesn't clock Norwood's helmet. There might've been helmet to helmet contact, but if so it was more the side of Mays' helmet, not the crown.

My point though is you're crazy if you think you'd be concerned about drafting Mays, just because of that one play. You wouldn't give even the slightest fuck about it. If you were a GM and you had the ability to draft Taylor Mays you'd be harder than m2 at a screening of the Israeli re-make of Top Gun...

Blueblood · Post by **Blueblood** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:04 am

The LA Trojans are taught to be cheap shot artists by their coaching staff. It's their M.O. and has been since Cheaty Petey arrived in south central.

You can clearly see Ellison was trying to take out D-Jax out of the game and was told as much. You can see at the 1:00 mark of the video... that Ellison made no attempt to lower his shoulder and hit D-Jax below the neck and went purposely for the helmet to helmet contact on a defenseless player.

I'll give you this.... The Pain Train did something similar to Lendale White in this video and was reprimanded harshly by Tedford and had to sit out 3 games.

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2009/4/29 ... highlights

Tedford finds it disgusting... while Cheaty gives it approval and makes it part of the game plan.

Pay back is coming in a big way this year in Strawberry Canyon.

the truth

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:34 am

Payback? For the Ellison hit? Really??

Does Cal normally wait years to mete out payback? Neither Ellison nor Jackson are even still there.

Why didn't Cal deliver their payback the following season, or, even better, later in the same game?

Weak.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:39 am

Btw, Zach Follett highlights?? What, like going oh-for-his-career in big games, graduating without ever having beaten USC and then falling to the bottom of the seventh round while watching all four USC LBs get drafted way above him?

You mean those highlights?

Blueblood · Post by **Blueblood** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:14 am

Van wrote:Btw, Zach Follett highlights?? What, like going oh-for-his-career in big games, graduating without ever having beaten USC and then falling to the bottom of the seventh round while watching all four USC LBs get drafted way above him?

You mean those highlights?

Shit for brains.... He didn't pass the physicals due to neck injury he played with for a year and teams passed on him.

Big mistake.... just ask south central in that video.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:56 am

"South Central" beat him and his teammates like a drum, his entire career. You want us to ask them about that?

Blueblood · Post by **Blueblood** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:32 am

Van wrote:"South Central" beat him and his teammates like a drum, his entire career.

Link ?

Other than the JA and Longshore nightmare... you would have lost last years game and the game before.

We won't get into the game where Cal ran up 3 times the numbers on $C in LA... and were screwed by the refs once again.

You do remember last year where the ball bounced off the ground and was called a "TD" for $C... and where Cal had a TD called back on a "mystery" man down field.

When you pay your players.... what's gonna stop ya from paying the refs ?????

Vito Corleone · Post by **Vito Corleone** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:32 am

SoCalTrjn wrote:Mays is 5 inches taller than Norwood, you do duck your head when youre hitting someone 5 inches shorter...

Seriously, if this is what you teach your kids then you need to stay away from any football field. no one is taught to duck their head, in fact everyone is taught to bend at their waist and knees and then to cock their heads back to avoid neck injuries. You duck your head and there is a good chance you will injure your neck no one cares if the guy is 5 inches shorter.

I will say this, if I were a ref I throw that flag and warn him if he does it again he gets tossed. If however, I was a trojan fan I would have gotten a woody after that hit. Mayes is a bad ass mother that reminds me of Ronnie Lott and Jack Tatum.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:34 am

Blueblood wrote:
Van wrote:"South Central" beat him and his teammates like a drum, his entire career.
Link ?

Other than the JA and Longshore nightmare... you would have lost last years game and the game before.

We won't get into the game where Cal ran up 3 times the numbers on $C in LA... and were screwed by the refs once again.

You do remember last year where the ball bounced off the ground and was called a "TD" for $C... and where Cal had a TD called back on a "mystery" man down field.

When you pay your players.... what's gonna stop ya from paying the refs ?????

When in doubt, go to old reliable. M Club's quote remains the bible of Cal football...

M Club wrote:I've seen Phantom Holding Calls ruin a 7-5 team's undefeated season.

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:46 am

we actually sent the whole team my kids played on to the Jerry Robinson tackling camp the last few years, they know the "point their seat at the feet and their eyes to the sky" rules in tackling.
By ducking your head I didnt mean "bend over and hit him with the top of your head," if a kid does that in tackling drills we make them take their helmet off when they get through the line again. Just saying that when youre hitting a guy 5 or 6 inches shorter than you you have to get your pad level down. What we use for that is a pvc pipe rack thats about 48 inches off the ground they have to run under to make the hit.
Plus, during games we teach our kids to gang tackle, if the enemy team has a player thats pretty good, the first man to him is instructed to hold him up until a few more can come clean him up. The more beat up and sore he is, the poorer he plays and the better chance we have to win.