ND fan survey (long)

[Terry in Crapchester]

Sorry I can't link to this, but it's on some type of thing I've never seen before. Interesting results nonetheless (survey in bold, my comments in regular print):

1. Who would you consider to be Notre Dame's biggest rival?

USC: 87%
Michigan: 10%
Boston College: 1%
Michigan State: 1%
Stanford: 1%
Purdue: 0%

2. Who would you consider to be Notre Dame's second biggest rival?

Michigan: 79%
USC: 10%
Michigan State: 5%
Boston College: 4%
Purdue: 1%
Stanford: 1%

3. Sorry -- last one. Who would you consider to be Notre Dame's third biggest rival?

Michigan State: 44%
Boston College: 36%
Purdue: 10%
Michigan: 7%
Stanford: 2%
USC: 2%

USC and Michigan win the #1 and #2 slots, respectively -- both by significant margins -- and Sparty beats Fredo for #3 by a much narrower margin. No real surprises there. The main criticism is with respect to the choices. If Stanford -- Stanford -- deserved consideration for these spots, then so did Pitt. If Pitt had been included, would that have change the outcome? Probably not considerably, but they still should have been included.

4. Notre Dame's record in 2009 with a bowl game . . .

11-2: 38%
10-3: 30%
12-1: 13%
9-4: 9%
13-0: 5%
7-6: 3%
8-5: 2%

I have ND in the 10-3/11-2 range, so I'm well within the majority here.

5. I have a favorite player in Sergio Brown. Straight, love him. Pick your favorite from the six listed . . . or other.

Michael Floyd: 36%
Golden Tate: 29%
Brian Smith: 9%
Kyle McCarthy: 7%
Jimmy Clausen: 6%
Ethan Johnson: 4%
Sergio Brown: 1%
Other: 8%

I like how all these guys play, although there's a fairly broad range of talent here. Michael Floyd, of all of them, will be something special. I also would've included Rudolph, Allen and Hughes, just to maximize available choices.

6. Do you plan on attending any games this year in South Bend?

Yes: 56%
No: 26%
Maybe: 18%

One of my pet peeves is reference to ND's campus as being "in South Bend." It isn't.

7. Do you plan on attending any away games this year?

No: 53%
Yes: 26%
Maybe: 22%

8. Do you plan on buying the 2009 "Shirt"?

No: 70%
Yes: 21%
Already have one: 8%

I suspect that most of the "already have one" answers came from current students.

9. For those that follow recruiting, will ND have a Top 5 class come signing day?

No: 55%
Yes: 45%

I'm not a recruiting guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I have to go with no. If nothing else, Weis being grounded in the immediate aftermath of his knee injuries probably put a significant damper on recruiting for this year's class.

10. Is the "gameday" experience at ND too Disney/Bible camp?

No: 62%
Yes: 38%

11. Will the better relationship Weis has created with ESPN have any effect on the polls or the awards voting?

No: 71%
Yes: 29%

12. Will Manti Te'o be a major contributor right away?

Yes: 59%
No: 41%

If the majority here is correct, then our linebacking depth was more suspect than I realized. Unless, of course, the major contribution comes on special teams.

13. Will the Irish alumni team, led by Lou Holtz, beat Japan?

Yes: 88%
No: 12%

14. How many times do you visit Subway Domer?

Almost never: 60%
Occasionally: 22%
A few times a week: 6%
Daily: 6%
Weekly: 6%

15. Will the Fighting Irish win a national title in the next three years?

Yes: 57%
No: 43%

I would expect Weis will be fired if we don't, even if there's substantial improvement this season.

16. Should Notre Dame join a conference (ALL sports)?

No: 92%
Yes: 8%

Although somewhat delicately worded, this is the football conference question, given that mens' and womens' fencing are the only other varsity sports at ND in which ND is not a member of a conference. Still an overwhelming majority against conference membership, although not nearly as overwhelming as Chuck Lennon's estimate of ND alums opposed to Big Ten membership back in 1999. Some possible explanations:

- One or both polls are skewed.
- There may have been a gradual thawing to the idea of joining a football conference over the past decade.
- Subway alums (included in this poll) may not be as hostile to the idea of joining a conference as are alums.
- Both polls could be within a margin of error of, say, 4% or so.

In any event, there is still strong enough opposition that it doesn't look like ND will be joining a conference any time in the foreseeable future.

17. For argument's sake, what conference would you want ND to join if they were forced to join one?

Big Ten: 54%
Big East: 36%
ACC: 9%

Two significant surprises here:

1. A majority voted for the Big Ten. Surprising, considering the history of animosity between ND and the Big Ten.

2. The ACC (which I believe would've won this question hands down had it been asked back in 2003 when ND was seriously considering joining a conference for football) came in a very distant third. Then again, many ND fans have stated that they would not want any conference to kick out an existing member to admit ND. If 12 schools is critical mass for a conference, the ACC, at least at the present time, would have to do that; the Big Ten and/or Big East would not.

18. Do you think the current BCS format is good?

I want an 8 team playoff: 41%
No: 23%
Yes: 14%
I want a Plus One game after the bowls: 13%
I want a 4 team playoff: 10%

Tons of problem with this question, or at least with the choices provided. Imho, the person doing the survey tried to ask two questions in one: is the BCS good for college football, and what should be done about college football's postseason. Not to mention that there were some choices that should have been included. I think that a 12-team playoff format and 16-team playoff format should have been included as options. I chose no here, because I want a 16-team playoff and none of the other choices adequately expressed what I wanted.

19. If ND rotated the Purdue/MSU game every year, and quit scheduling teams in Washington, who would you like to see ND play? Choose two.

Alabama 913 (22%)
Miami 882 (21%)
Texas 652 (16%)
Penn State 486 (12%)
Ohio State 317 (8%)
Oklahoma 309 (7%)
Nebraska 282 (7%)
Illinois 134 (3%)
Indiana 113 (3%)
Cincinnati 66 (2%)

I have to confess to being slightly confused by the results here, especially at the top. I'm not quite sure why Alabama wound up in first place, although I have my suspicions as to why (more on that later). In any event, Alabama has played ND only six times overall, and two of those were in bowl games. By contrast, both Miami and Penn State had significant series with ND, which didn't end until around the time both schools moved into conferences (although that wasn't the reason the ND-Miami series ended). And yes, White did famously reject Alabama's offer of a home-and-home, although 'Bama isn't alone in that regard.

Strictly mho, but I believe that 'Bama came out on top in no small part because of a pro-SEC bias within the survey. In that regard, I note that there were four teams each from the Big 10 and Big XII considered, but 'Bama was the only SEC team. Perhaps the survey also should have included Florida and Georgia (both of whom were also rejected by White for potential home-and-home series) as well as LSU and Tennessee (both of whom played a home-and-home vs. ND in the relatively recent past). Had that been the case, I don't think 'Bama would've come out on top, although I do think the SEC teams as a whole would have garnered a significant portion of the vote on this question.

In any event, I would reject the premise of the question at least in part. I don't think a long-term deal with any of these schools is desirable, based on the following:

1. Variety. Much of the criticism I hear of the "virtual conference" schedule ND now has set up is that there is no variety to it. If that's your criticism, fine. But let's be honest. Scheduling any of these teams doesn't change that. It merely changes out one of the set opponents for another.

2. Feasibility. If ND really is on the cusp of a comeback, none of these schools will want a long-term deal with us. Any ND fan who thinks White was the only AD who scheduled for the BCS is delusional. That's the way it's done in many places these days. And as has been documented on this board, the SEC is perhaps the worst offender in that regard, scheduling OOC cupcakes then relying on the "meatgrinder" argument for favorable treatment from the BCS. And while ND did have long-term deals against both Miami and Penn State in the not-too-distant past, a lot has changed in BTPCF since that time. Back then, those schools were independents, so it made sense to them to schedule ND every year. Now, not so much.

What I'd rather do is rotate home-and-home series with a number of teams on this list, as well as a few who aren't on this list, to add variety to the overall schedule, as well as a third marquee opponent to the schedule every year.

20. Will Jimmy Clausen be in the Heisman race in 2009 and/or 2010?

Yes: 47%
2010 but not 2009: 33%
No: 18%
2009 but not 2010: 2%

I'm not too worried about this one. Just win and the postseason honors will take care of themselves.

[Screw_Michigan]

National title in three years?

Seriously, the most delusional fanbase in all of sports. Worse than Yankee fan.

Just because campus has a Post Office that says Notre Dame, doesn't mean it's not in South Bend. Like how Washington is in the District of Columbia, right?

[Van]

S_M, it's like the Vatican. It's not in Rome, it's in Notre Dame City.

Who was the clown who said Stanford was ND's #1 rival??

I'm not quite sure how I'd answer that one, for my own team. I consider ND to be USC's biggest "rival," using the strict definition of the term, but I would still rather lose to ND than to UCLA. I can deal with losing to ND.

Well, at least I could. I don't know about losing to Charlie Weis. I like ND's players too much to ever see them have to try and carry him off the field.

Losing to ND sucks, but it doesn't feel wrong. It feels like part of the natural ebb and flow of the seasons. Even losing to Oregon St doesn't feel wrong. It feels like a typical upset.

Losing to UCLA feels like someone is playing some cosmic joke on me. It feels like a personal repudiation.

Claussen being in the Heisman running, this year or next year? He's ND's QB. He's automatically in the Heisman running, if he and his team are even halfway successful. Still, in order for him to at least be an invitee to New York he'll need to beat USC. Going 9-3 or 10-2 but getting waxed on national tv by your main rival won't get it done, and this year is a moot point anyway. Despite what m2 wants to think about Jahvid Insomnia, we all know this year's Heisman is going to Tebow, McCoy or Bradford.

2010 is a possibility. Beat USC this year, have a great season and look good in your bowl game and yeah, the Hype Machine will be out in full force for 2010.

ND winning a national title within three years? Highly unlikely, and you can completely forget about it if Weis is allowed to fester, but if Weis gets shitcanned after this season then yeah, it's possible. It's at least conceivable. Get some new Golden Boy coach in there and maybe he pulls a Meyer/Carroll/Stoops and he immediately turns the thing around and wins a title in his second year.

I can't see it, but it's not inconceivable either.

[Screw_Michigan]

S_M, it's like the Vatican. It's not in Rome, it's in Notre Dame City.

I know, that's why it's so offensive.

[King Crimson]

what does the Disney/bible camp question mean?

too "wholesome"? not enough spandex and sequin jog bra dance teams dry humping the air and doing "Paula Abdul" dancing?

[Screw_Michigan]

KC, I wondered that myself because if you ask tards at ND Nation, they'll tell you jackbooted SB police have turned tailgates into oppressive prison camps.

[Terry in Crapchester]

S_M, it's like the Vatican.

Not exactly. The Vatican is its own independent country. Tell me you knew.

Who was the clown who said Stanford was ND's #1 rival??

There was more than one, apparently. Stanford garnered 1% of the vote on that question.

[Van]

S_M, it's like the Vatican.

Not exactly. The Vatican is its own independent country. Tell me you knew.

Humor, Terry, humor. Try it. Or, at least sense its presence.

The Notre Dame City quip should've been your tip off.

Besides, the Vatican isn't really its own independent country. It's a "country," in name only. It's a total farce.

Tell me you knew.

Who was the clown who said Stanford was ND's #1 rival??

There was more than one, apparently. Stanford garnered 1% of the vote on that question.

Right. Who are these clowns? In what universe could Stanford possibly be ND's main rival?

[Terry in Crapchester]

National title in three years?

Seriously, the most delusional fanbase in all of sports. Worse than Yankee fan.

Let's look at this year's schedule, shall we?

S05 NEVADA 3:30pm NBC
S12 @ Michigan TBA
S19 MICHIGAN ST. 3:30pm NBC
S26 @ Purdue 8pm ABC/ESPN
O03 WASHINGTON 3:30pm NBC
O17 SOUTHERN CAL 3:30pm NBC
O24 BOSTON COLLEGE 3:30pm NBC
O31 Washington St. 7:30pm NBC(SA)
N07 NAVY 2:30pm NBC
N14 @ Pittsburgh TBA
N21 CONNECTICUT 2:30pm NBC
N28 @ Stanford 8pm ABC

That looks to me like ND will have a talent advantage against (conservatively) 11 of its 12 opponents next season. Assuming, then, that ND is able to meet expectatins, that should mean that they basically start the season, for all intensive purposes (Shoalzie reset intentional) two games away from a national championship. And with respect to the one team on the schedule (USC) which has a talent advantage against ND, on paper this is ND's best chance to pick up a win in this series in quite awhile. ND has the game at home this year, coming off a bye week, and USC lost a lot of talent last year, including their starting QB.

On top of all of that, ND's senior, junior and sophomore classes this year all were Top 10 recruiting classes (I'm pretty sure that hasn't been the case since the Holtz era), and ND goes from being one of the least experienced teams to being one of the most experienced teams in the country.

Am I saying that ND will win the national championship this season? No, in fact, I don't expect them to do that. But by the same token, ND winning a national championship this year wouldn't be nearly as far-fetched as some on this board make it out to be. And that's only one of the three possible years.

Not to mention that the vote was 57-43, not 87-13.

[Screw_Michigan]

L S05 NEVADA 3:30pm NBC
W S12 @ Michigan TBA
L S19 MICHIGAN ST. 3:30pm NBC
W S26 @ Purdue 8pm ABC/ESPN
W O03 WASHINGTON 3:30pm NBC
L O17 SOUTHERN CAL 3:30pm NBC
L O24 BOSTON COLLEGE 3:30pm NBC
W O31 Washington St. 7:30pm NBC(SA)
W N07 NAVY 2:30pm NBC
L N14 @ Pittsburgh TBA
L N21 CONNECTICUT 2:30pm NBC
W N28 @ Stanford 8pm ABC

6-6.

[Van]

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Am I saying that ND will win the national championship this season? No, in fact, I don't expect them to do that. But by the same token, ND winning a national championship this year wouldn't be nearly as far-fetched as some on this board make it out to be.

The ONLY thing that wouldn't make it that far-fetched is the schedule, and even then it's still pretty fucking far-fetched considering the results from last year. They won 6 games last year in the regular season. They would (assumingly) have to win all 12 this year to make it to the championship game. A 6-win differential in just one season is VERY far-fetched, any way you wanna slice it. That is a huge hill to climb in the world of CFB in such a short period of time. It happens occasionally, but it certainly falls under the category of far-fetched.

Plus, until it proves otherwise, I still don't have any reason to assume ND is going to start consistently beating the teams it's supposed to. ND may not have had a peaking top 10 recruiting class the last couple years, as you've argued, but they had top 10 talent respective to Syracuse and Navy -- how did those assumptions work out? They lose when they have inferior talent and they lose when they have superior talent. It isn't about the talent, it's about the failing infrastructure of the program.

[H4ever]

National title in three years?

Seriously, the most delusional fanbase in all of sports. Worse than Yankee fan.

?

I'll second the and add a and what's more:

Notre Dame fan is the biggest poser, bandwagon, straight up-sell out- bitch fan in the nation. Touchdown down Jesus sucks Lucifer's cock and Rudy deserves to die of HIV without any access to medications including medicinal marijuana to ease his suffering.

Husker fan had no trouble turning South Bend/Vatican city into a sea of motherfucking red as Notre Dame got bitched with touchdown Jesus looking upon the horrah of it all in that sea of Husker red in HIS house. Easy ticket to buy....bitch ND fan front and center trying to make 20 bucks over face value.

Yeah.....I'm sick of ND and the run they get every year....of which they are not deserving.

[Screw_Michigan]

Terry's not as delusional as regular ND fan, so I cut him some slack. But the rest of the tards will just never get it.

[Van]

Nope, Terry's never been the least bit delusional about ND's on-the-field product. He is awfully defensive though, about the oddest of ND related things.

Bring up any of these topics...

-The firing of Willingham after three years, and the retaining of Weis for five years

-South Bend

-ND's sense of entitlement

-ND's protected and exalted media status

-ND's no longer relevant historical minutiae

-ND joining a conference

...and Terry will usually get hyper-defensive and downright snippy.

Btw, if ND isn't located in South Bend, well, somebody needs to inform the AP of this, since every one of their by-lines from every ND home game has always read, "South Bend, Indiana."

If ND isn't in South Bend then where is it, and why does everyone say it's in South Bend?

[Screw_Michigan]

Btw, if ND isn't located in South Bend, well, somebody needs to inform the AP of this, since every one of their by-lines from every ND home game has always read, "South Bend, Indiana."

If ND isn't in South Bend then where is it, and why does everyone say it's in South Bend?

Good call, Van. Always wondered that myself. Technically, Terry is right. ND is located in Notre Dame, Indiana, which is basically campus. When I worked at the paper in Elkhart, we always changed ND datelines (and they're datelines, Van. Bylines are "By Terry in Crapchester") to NOTRE DAME --. But AP always ran them as South Bend, Ind. I believe SB Trib also runs them as SOUTH BEND.

But then again, to the fucktards at ND Nation, this is just another example of the SB Trib and AP's anti-ND bias.

[Van]

Dateline, not by-line.

So, there is a Notre Dame, Indiana, but it only encompasses the ND campus? There's nothing else there? Is the city/town/whatever of Notre Dame within the city limits of South Bend, the way Vatican City is actually in Rome, or is it merely near South Bend?

(Edit: According to wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame,_Indiana

...it's basically a grouping of Catholic colleges, plus a Catholic retirement home. It's unincorporated, and though it's not in South Bend it's certainly not worthy of being called its own town or city. It simply has its own zip code and post office.

It sounds kinda cult-ish, actually, the idea of creating a strict Catholic community right in the middle of Heartland, Indiana. )

Anyway, oh yeah, now I can easily see why Terry always gets so bent out of shape over this South Bend thing. It's in Notre Dame, dammit, not South Bend!

[Terry in Crapchester]

Husker fan had no trouble turning South Bend/Vatican city into a sea of motherfucking red as Notre Dame got bitched with touchdown Jesus looking upon the horrah of it all in that sea of Husker red in HIS house. Easy ticket to buy....bitch ND fan front and center trying to make 20 bucks over face value.

While I wasn't at the game, coupla points about it from what I've heard:

1. The "sea of red" aerial photo was wytched, at least to some extent.

2. I've been told that many of the ND students actually wore red t-shirts with messages like "Nebraska sucks" or something similar for that game. Perhaps they thought it was clever at the time. They obviously weren't thinking of the aerial shots, though.

Oh, and btw, didn't that game go into OT? Hardly a bitchslapping, and you caught us while Davie was the coach.

-ND joining a conference

On this point, let's just say that when it comes to having ND's best interests at heart, I'm more likely to trust ND alums and admitted fans of ND than I am to trust people who are NOT ND fans (and some of whom are even admitted ND haytas). And we can leave it at that.

EVERY poll that's ever come out on this subject among ND fans shows the overwhelming majority (as in, >90%) opposed to joining a football conference.

If ND isn't in South Bend then where is it, and why does everyone say it's in South Bend?

Notre Dame is in Notre Dame, Indiana. Notre Dame, Indiana encompasses only the campuses of Notre Dame, St. Mary's College and Holy Cross College (formerly a junior college, that's where Rudy went before enrolling at ND) as well.

Ever been to ND? To South Bend? To put it mildly, South Bend is not your typical college town (yeah, I know, neither is LA, but we're not exactly talking about the same thing in that regard). South Bend isn't exactly what I'd call accessible from the ND campus on foot. The only parts that were within easy walking distance were Notre Dame Avenue (the main drag that leads to the main gate for the ND campus, populated mostly by ND professors), as well as some, to put it charitably, not-so-nice areas of town. Back in my day, at least, most undergrad students didn't have a car with them on campus (I never did), so your options off-campus were extremely limited. Catch a ride with someone who did and was going off-campus, maybe (there were some restaurants on the strip, U.S. 31, that we'd hit every so often when we were sick of the dining hall). And there was also a bus that would make runs to the local malls. That was about it, for traveling off campus.

South Bend doesn't provide what I would consider to be the typical college town experience. And it's not built around ND by any stretch of the imagination, even though ND is far and away the local area's largest employer. For that matter, the ND campus is located outside South Bend city limits, your other comments notwithstanding. So yeah, it's fair to say that ND is not located in South Bend. Put another way, if it's fair to say that ND is located in South Bend, it's equally fair to say that the Air Force Academy is located in Colorado Springs.

For that matter, Notre Dame existed before South Bend did. Notre Dame was formed in 1842. South Bend wasn't incorporated until 1865. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Bend,_Indiana

Edit: My bad, South Bend was actually formed as a town seven years before ND, but didn't become incorporated as a city until 1865. The land used by Father Sorin to form ND was north of South Bend.

Why do people say it's in South Bend when it's not? Blame that on the ESPN factor. In fact, as I pointed out at the Washington game, Mark Jones and Bob Davie were commenting on the number of ND fans who "made the road trip from South Bend." Short of a group charter flight taking several ND fans from South Bend to Seattle (a possibility I'll at least concede, given that a college classmate of mine runs a travel agency that focuses a lot of its business around ND sports), that just isn't the way ND fans travel to road games. It's even possible that the ND fans in attendance all were locals. After all, there's a sizeable ND alumni club in Seattle.

But ESPN wants to pigeonhole ND into the same categories that other schools fit into. And for ND, it doesn't work, at least not if you care to get it right.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Am I saying that ND will win the national championship this season? No, in fact, I don't expect them to do that. But by the same token, ND winning a national championship this year wouldn't be nearly as far-fetched as some on this board make it out to be.

The ONLY thing that wouldn't make it that far-fetched is the schedule, and even then it's still pretty fucking far-fetched considering the results from last year. They won 6 games last year in the regular season. They would (assumingly) have to win all 12 this year to make it to the championship game. A 6-win differential in just one season is VERY far-fetched, any way you wanna slice it. That is a huge hill to climb in the world of CFB in such a short period of time. It happens occasionally, but it certainly falls under the category of far-fetched.

Let's take a closer look at a few of those six losses, shall we?

ND lost to Syracuse by one point.

ND lost to Pitt in four OT's.

ND lost to North Carolina by five points, with North Carolina getting the game-winning TD relatively late in the 4th quarter.

Three very winnable games for ND, and that would've been a 9-3 record. I'm not crying the blues, just pointing that out, as well as the fact that veteran teams often find a way to win those games, while young teams often do not. ND was a young team in '08. It will be a veteran team in '09.

On the downside, ND certainly hasn't shown much ability to win games like those. With the exception of UCLA in '06, ND really hasn't won a nailbiter in Weis' entire tenure. ND did win two close games last year (vs. Stanford and Navy), but in both of those games, ND squandered a huge lead and the opponent's comeback fell just short.

Plus, until it proves otherwise, I still don't have any reason to assume ND is going to start consistently beating the teams it's supposed to. ND may not have had a peaking top 10 recruiting class the last couple years, as you've argued, but they had top 10 talent respective to Syracuse and Navy -- how did those assumptions work out? They lose when they have inferior talent and they lose when they have superior talent. It isn't about the talent, it's about the failing infrastructure of the program.

ND did do that during the first two years of Weis' regime. In that period, ND was 19-1 vs. teams that finished lower than ND in the final regular-season BCS rankings.

A return to that alone, with the schedule ND is facing this year, could mean an 11-1 season. Depending on the circumstances, that could be enough to put them into position to play for the national championship.

[Left Seater]

Terry,

Honest question about ND and their schedule. How do you feel about their schedule year in and year out? You have explained the reasons for and behind the traditional games, but how do you feel about said schedule?

Stanford (69-93-2 from '95 to '08), Michigan (125-49 from '95 to '08) , Michigan St (87-82-1 from '95 to '08), Pitt (81-85 from '95 to '08), Air Force (66-59 from '99 to '08), Navy (83-84 from '95 to '08), BC (105-68 from '95 to '08), USC (128-46 from '95 to '08) and Purdue (94-76 from '95 to '08) were on the ND schedule for at least 8 of the last 15 years.

Rutgers, Washington, and Army were on at a minimum of 4 times over the past 15 years. The winning percentage of these teams in the years they played ND was .301%

There have been plenty of teams like Nebraska, Texas, LSU, FSU, Tenn, etc. The problem is for each one of those there are two of Northwestern, Vandy, Hawaii, Baylor, Kansas, Maryland, BYU, Syracuse, Washington State, UNC, etc.

In fact ND has had two winning seasons against top 28 strength of schedules in the last 13 years. In '05 they went 9-3 against the 7th rated schedule, in '02 they went 10-3 against the 15th ranked schedule. Their last three strenghts of schedule are 78th, 30th, and 39th. This season's SOS could be absolutely horrible, depending on how SC and Michigan finish the season.

So how do you feel about the schedule year in and year out?

[Van]

Terry, say what you will about ESPN, but you cannot blame them for people thinking ND is in South Bend. Hell no. For our entire lives, dating back to well before the existence of ESPN, every wire service dateline and tv telecast of every ND home game has said South Bend, Indiana, not Notre Dame, Indiana.

Hell, that's been the case from long before we were born.
Any national tv telecast, it's always said, "We're here in South Bend."

Oh, and yeah, I do think of the Air Force Academy as being in Colorado Springs. That's what they always say, any time there's a tv telecast or wire story about an AF home game.

[Screw_Michigan]

I agree with Van. While I see Terry's beef as an ND alum, it's like how they are now referring to Stanford as STANFORD, Calif. -- instead of PALO ALTO, Calif. Technicalities.

They still refer to the Naval Academy as ANNAPOLIS, Md., when will they start calling it U.S. NAVAL ACADEMY, Md.?

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Terry, you can't rationalize 6-6. That's bordering on m2-like behavior. It wasn't like one token fluky loss prevented them from greatness last year. They were just a BAD team.

Justifying a loss to Syracuse, based on the final score, tells me all I need to know about the state of ND football.

[Van]

I agree with Van. While I see Terry's beef as an ND alum, it's like how they are now referring to Stanford as STANFORD, Calif. -- instead of PALO ALTO, Calif. Technicalities.

They still refer to the Naval Academy as ANNAPOLIS, Md., when will they start calling it U.S. NAVAL ACADEMY, Md.?

I've never heard of Stanford, Ca. Is that how it's referred to now, back east?

All I've ever heard and read is Palo Alto, as Stanford's home.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

No, I've never heard it as Stanford either. S_M is full of shite.

[Screw_Michigan]

No, I've never heard it as Stanford either. S_M is full of shite.

No, I'm not. People are starting to refer to it as Stanford, Calif. Go fuck yourself.

EDIT:

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[Terry in Crapchester]

Rutgers, Washington, and Army were on at a minimum of 4 times over the past 15 years. The winning percentage of these teams in the years they played ND was .301%

I wasn't sure about this, so I checked the records. Rutgers and Army each have played ND three times in the past 15 years. In Army's case, the third meeting (2006) was when the NCAA added the 12th game on short notice in 2006. Many schools added a FCS school to their schedule. ND added a scrub, but at least it was a scrub as to whom we have some tradition. Given our history of playing in the NYC area, I don't have a problem with the occasional game against Army or Rutgers. I do have a problem with the fact that we apparently just signed a long-term deal with Army, though.

There have been plenty of teams like Nebraska, Texas, LSU, FSU, Tenn, etc. The problem is for each one of those there are two of Northwestern, Vandy, Hawaii, Baylor, Kansas, Maryland, BYU, Syracuse, Washington State, UNC, etc.

To be fair, every team in the former category was a home-and-home, whereas many teams in the latter category (Hawaii, Baylor, Kansas, Maryland, Washington State) were one-offs. Northwestern wasn't a one-off, but hasn't been on our schedule since '95, which appears to be the year you began your search. It was also the year Northwestern went to the Rose Bowl, btw.

In fact ND has had two winning seasons against top 28 strength of schedules in the last 13 years. In '05 they went 9-3 against the 7th rated schedule, in '02 they went 10-3 against the 15th ranked schedule. Their last three strenghts of schedule are 78th, 30th, and 39th. This season's SOS could be absolutely horrible, depending on how SC and Michigan finish the season.

Not sure where you're getting your schedule rankings from. I used Sagarin, and over the last three seasons (working backward), ND's SOS was 50th, 24th, and 18th (2006, therefore, would've qualified as a winning season vs. Top 28 SOS). I would expect our SOS rank this season to be about where it was last season -- we drop San Diego State, North Carolina and Syracuse and add Nevada, Washington State and Connecticut. Of course, an unexpected season, either positive or negative, from one of our opponents could have a huge impact.

So how do you feel about the schedule year in and year out?

Probably more information than you want, but to me it looks like we're trying to fit 50 pounds of stuff into a 10-pound bag. A quick hitter on various scheduling issues that have arisen in recent years:

Traditional rivalries: Like them, and I can see a reason for continuing with each of the traditional rivalries currently on our schedule. However, if you want more diversity on the schedule, some of these may have to be sacrificed.

3 games vs. Big East: I realize I'm in the minority on this point, and maybe it's impacted by where I live, but I actually don't have a problem with this. By accepting us into the Big East for basketball and other sports on our terms, the Big East helped us save our basketball program. I don't see a semi-favored status on our football schedule being too big a price to pay for that. In fact, I see the Big East obligation as being somewhat akin to the debt of honor game with Navy, albeit on a smaller scale.

7-4-1: Hate this idea, it's a move in the wrong direction. While there are some BCS teams that might be willing to take a one-off with ND in exchange for a national TV appearance, there aren't enough of them to allow ND to continue this schedule arrangement in the long term. Throw in teams that would be willing to take a 2-1 deal, perhaps, and you might be able to pull it off. But that would require pulling the plug on some of the traditional rivalries. If seven home games are a necessity from a financial standpoint, I've floated a compromise whereby we would schedule Hawaii every so often, play them on the road, and that would allow us a 13th game, which could be at home.

Barnstorming: Love it in theory, hate it in practice. ND vs. Washington State in San Antonio, 'nuff said. Perhaps Swarbrick can come up with better matchups for this game, but that still remains to be seen.

4-4-4: Not an official ND scheduling policy or even a consideration, but a construct of one of the ND homer boards. The idea behind it is to rank opponents into three tiers, and each year schedule four Tier 1 teams, 4 Tier 2 teams and 4 Tier 3 teams. Again, a good idea in theory, but practice is a different matter altogether. One problem is the feasibility of such a proposal. The tiers are not divided equally. Rather, it looks like a bell curve, with Tier 1 being the smallest grouping. Assuming we'll keep two Tier 1 schools (USC and Michigan) on the schedule annually, that leaves only about 10 or so remaining schools to fill out the last two Tier 1 slots every year. Another problem is bias, both with respect to rankings (for example, Texas Tech is ranked as a Tier 3 school) and with respect to who is ranked and who isn't (only BCS schools and service academies are ranked). I can see the reasoning as to why service academies are favored on ND's schedule over other non-BCS schools, but in something purporting to be an objective ranking, that should go out the window. For example, Army gets a Tier 3 ranking, while Utah (on ND's schedule in 2010) is unranked.

Scheduling is a topic that comes up a lot for ND in the offseason. The biggest complaints on the ND homerboards are the lack of variety and lack of marquee opponents on the schedule. I've given this matter a lot of thought, and I've come to a conclusion as to what I would do if I were ND's AD (and I'm not).

What I would do is utilize a 4-5-3 scheduling format. That's not related to 4-4-4, though. I'll explain below.

A. 4 permanent opponents on the schedule.

1&2. Navy and USC. Everyone seems to agree that those two are the sacred cows, albeit for differing reasons.
3. Michigan. This is tough for ND fan to admit, but deep down in places we don't like to talk about at parties, we want Skunkbear on that schedule. We need Skunkbear on that schedule.
4. Pitt. Yeah, I know this is something of a surprise, but if we're going to play 3 games per year vs. the Big East, it makes sense to me to have an annual matchup with our biggest rival in that conference.

B. 5 games that rotate between/among various finite groups of opponents, as follows:

1. Michigan State/Purdue. Probably the most controversial decision here. But these teams serve largely duplicative purposes on ND's schedule today. I recognize the importance each has had in ND's tradition, and for that matter I wouldn't cut either one off entirely. Alternatively, I'd reconsider leaving both on the schedule permanently if the Big Ten were to drop its September-only rule for scheduling ND.

2. A rotating marquee opponent. We already have Oklahoma coming on the schedule for '12 and '13. I'd work around that, beginning with the teams that have contacted us recently about a series (Alabama, Florida, Georgia and Miami). Schedule a home-and-home with each, except Miami, whose series would include a neutral site game or two as well. Schedule one in every year, and you've already gotten through the first decade or so.

3. A rotating western team. There's been a lot of criticism on the ND boards about continuing to carry Stanford. Yet Stanford serves an important purpose -- in conjunction with USC, it guarantees us a road game on the west coast every year. What I would do is rotate through five teams: Arizona State, Cal, Stanford, UCLA and Hawaii. Each team would get two games per decade, home-and-home for each except Hawaii, who would get two home games vs. ND. Stagger the remaining home-and-homes with the USC game.

4&5. Two remaining Big East games. Rather than giving UConn an annual game, I would rotate the two remaining Big East games among the remaining Big East schools including UConn.

C. Three remaining games TBD.

This is where you would fit in any game that didn't fit in to one of the other categories. Want a fourth game vs. a marquee opponent? Want to schedule a school to whom you owe a favor? Want to schedule a home-and-home against Minnesota to include the dedication game for their new stadium? Want to schedule Air Force or Army? (I wouldn't schedule both of them in the same year, though.) This is the category where these games would go. In years when we played Hawaii, we'd get a fourth game in this category.

Anyhow, that's how I'd do it if I were in charge. Probably more information than you wanted to know.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Terry, you can't rationalize 6-6. That's bordering on m2-like behavior. It wasn't like one token fluky loss prevented them from greatness last year. They were just a BAD team.

Justifying a loss to Syracuse, based on the final score, tells me all I need to know about the state of ND football.

I'm not justifying any of those losses. ND never should have put itself in that position in the first place.

That having been said, no team is at its best week in and week out. Occasionally you're going to find yourself in a tight game. My point was that an experienced team often finds a way to win those games, and an inexperienced team does not.

ND was a 6-6 team last year. Their best case scenario, though, would've been a 9-3 team.

By contrast, the previous year ND was a 3-9 team. That year, their best case scenario only would've been 4-8. Of all their losses in '07, only one game -- Navy -- was winnable.

ND still has an awful long way to go, but they were more improved last season than most on this board realize. That's all I'm saying.

[Terry in Crapchester]

No, I've never heard it as Stanford either. S_M is full of shite.

I'd never heard it referred to as Stanford, CA either, but damn if google doesn't actually back Screw up -- sort of.

http://www.google.com/search?q=94305&rl ... 1I7GGLL_en

In any event, referring to ND as being in Notre Dame, IN is hardly anything new. ND had its own post office back when I was a student, and, I suspect, for quite some time before that.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Oh, and yeah, I do think of the Air Force Academy as being in Colorado Springs. That's what they always say, any time there's a tv telecast or wire story about an AF home game.

You might want to tell CFBDataWarehouse about that. They list ND home games as South Bend, IN but Air Force home games as being at Air Force Academy, CO.

[Left Seater]

Good discussion.

Sounds like you think USC, Navy, Pitt and Michigan are untouchable. I can see that. I don't know though with Stanford or another lower level west coast team you can have three Big East teams.

If they want to play so many Big East teams each year, why not join the conferece? (I know another discussion)


My strength of schedule numbers came from google. Should have gone with Sag.

With two service academies, Pitt, Stanford, and two big east teams each year, I don't think that schedule does ND any favors. Sure some years half of those schools will be decent, but in most years they start off working from behind. Even in years that those schools are better they are still working to overcome voter bias of those schools.

[Van]

Okay, I missed the memo on Michigan = Skunkbear.

I like that. What's the story there? Is "skunkbear" a nic for a wolverine, or sumthin'?

Oh, and for what it's worth, I once read where pound-for-pound a wolverine is one the baddest creatures on the planet. Make a bear-sized wolverine and you'd have yourself one seriously ferocious fucker.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Yeah, a wolverine is a skunk bear.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

ND still has an awful long way to go, but they were more improved last season than most on this board realize. That's all I'm saying.

Of course they improved, and they should improve in 2009 as well. I'm not arguing against that, I'm arguing against your claim that it isn't far-fetched for ND to win the title in '09. Going from 6-6 immediately to 12-0, or even 11-1, IS far-fetched no matter how many close losses they had last year.

For what it's worth I think they'll go 8-4.

[Screw_Michigan]

I'd never heard it referred to as Stanford, CA either, but damn if google doesn't actually back Screw up -- sort of.

http://www.google.com/search?q=94305&rl ... 1I7GGLL_en

Sort of?

http://www.stanford.edu/

Scroll to bottom, read the fucking address.

[Killian]

I'm not going to get to deep on this seeing as how pounding out a long reply on my Blackberry would take foreverM but for those of you thinking ND fans are on crack, ask yourselves this question: If Nick Saban, Urban Meyer or any other teir one coach were at ND, what would you expect their record to be? And speaking of Saban, he went from 6-6 to 11 wins in one year.

Also, Phil Steele has ND as a dark hourse NC team this year. So ND fans aren't the only ones who think like that.

As for the schedule, USC and Navy are the only untouchables.

[Screw_Michigan]

And speaking of Saban, he went from 6-6 to 11 wins in one year.

Are you fucking serious? Comparing Saban's resume to Fat ass Weis? You must be on crack.

[Killian]

And speaking of Saban, he went from 6-6 to 11 wins in one year.

Are you fucking serious? Comparing Saban's resume to Fat ass Weis? You must be on crack.

Reading comprehension isn't your thing, that's cool. I stated a fact and in your rush to bash everything ND related, ignored that I called Saban a teir one coach. I don't have the patience to draw this out any longer, so if you're going to fall back to one of your music forum type rants, save it.

[Screw_Michigan]

Well, ND has far from a tier-one coach at the helm, so I guess asking how they would finish with a tier-one coach is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure Western Michigan would go 12-0 and win a BCS game if Nick Saban was coaching there. As has been stated before (I know ignoring reality is something you're accustomed to), it's not necessarily the personnel, but the infrastructure. It took Saban a year to dismantle that infrastructure and rebuild. ND would require the same.

Keep living in your fantasy world, praying for Weis to get canned.

[Killian]

WMU couldn't get a teir one coach, so what's your point? The original point was that it was out of the realm of possibility for ND (or most any team) to go from 6 wins to 11 or 12. If Weis were to choke on his fried crisco sandwich tomorrow and Saban were to grab his carpet and head to Notre Dame, IN, ND would be a top 15 team to start the season.

Maybe it will be different because Weis again has a team that is JR and SR loaded like he did in '05. Maybe it will be differen because Chunk is calling the plays again. But with this talent and schedule, 11 wins isn't out of reach.

And if Weis is fired there won't be a year tear down unless they hire someone with a completely different offensive philosophy.