Deadline Deals '09

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:16 pm

The Cards make a huge move adding legitimate protection for Pujols by acquiring Matt Holliday for three prospects

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the Cardinals try to get him in the winter? Either way, great move by them...two of the best right handed hitters in the game in the same lineup. The Cards are definitely favorites in Central if they weren't already.

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:51 am

Giants just got first baseman Ryan Garko for minor league pitcher Scott Barnes. Probably will be dealing first baseman Travis Ishikawa soon, too.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:16 pm

Seems like the Phillies and BlueJays have cooled on the Holliday trade talks. The Jays are probably asking for too much but I say fuck it- the window to win a WS is small and with the offense this team has, adding Holliday would make their 3 man rotation arguably the best in baseball.

Cliff Lee is also on the radar but I'd rather have Holliday.

battery chucka' one · Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:24 am

C'mon Sam, they can just trade the next Bartolo Colon to the Nats and be fully restocked.

I think the Giants should try to get Willingham (left field) and Freddy Sanchez for second base. That would make me happy. Oh, and perhaps they can platoon Garko with Ish. Just not sold on Garko yet. Tonight's his first night.

Terry in Crapchester · Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:03 am

Reportedly, both the Yankees and the Red Sox are trying to swing a deal to get Halladay. The Red Sox really don't need him, but don't want the Yankees to have him either.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:55 pm

Phillies land Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco for 4 prospects
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

Lee isn't Halladay but given the fact they got a front-end starter without having to give up Drabek or Happ, that's a very nice deal for them. When Myers finally comes off the DL and Pedro is done with his conditioning starts in the minors, they've got the makings of a very good rotation (Hamels-Lee-Myers-Moyer-Martinez). That 7-game lead in the East could easily double by the end of the season.

Seattle acquires Jack Wilson and Ian Snell from the Pirates
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

This has to mean that Mariners aren't going to be sellers...ie--move Washburn before the deadline. Bedard just went back on the DL so there's opening in the rotation for Snell. Wilson is an obvious upgrade from Cedeno. 6-1/2 games out of the wild card with 2 months left isn't too much ground to make up but you never know when the Sox will get rolling again and put some distance between them and field or even catch up with Yankees.

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:43 am

Giants got Freddy Sanchez in exchange for minor league starting pitcher Tim Alderson. Great hitter in exchange for a blue chip prospect. #4 in the Giants system, at last check. I remember him getting shelled in spring training. He's young, but should be good. Sanchez fills a gaping need at second base for the Giants. Should impact the team immediately. Better pick up overall than Garko.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:53 pm

Shoalzie wrote:Phillies land Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco for 4 prospects
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

Lee isn't Halladay but given the fact they got a front-end starter without having to give up Drabek or Happ, that's a very nice deal for them. When Myers finally comes off the DL and Pedro is done with his conditioning starts in the minors, they've got the makings of a very good rotation (Hamels-Lee-Myers-Moyer-Martinez). That 7-game lead in the East could easily double by the end of the season.

Aren't you forgetting about Joe Blanton? He's quietly had a fantastic year after a slow start. I doubt Myers will contribute much of anything this year. I suspect if he is able to return, he'll be a pen option for long relief but won't be able to start since he won't have the arm strength for anything beyond 3 innings. Martinez might be ready to pitch in a few weeks but their current 5th starter Rodrigo Lopez has been steady and providing some quality starts the past few weeks.

I still wanted Holliday because you avoid the mess of having too many left-handed starters but a 1-2-3 of Hamels, Lee and Blanton is pretty formidable in a 5 game playoff series and then to have 2-3 options for a 7 game World Series is even better.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:43 pm

jiminphilly wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:Phillies land Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco for 4 prospects
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

Lee isn't Halladay but given the fact they got a front-end starter without having to give up Drabek or Happ, that's a very nice deal for them. When Myers finally comes off the DL and Pedro is done with his conditioning starts in the minors, they've got the makings of a very good rotation (Hamels-Lee-Myers-Moyer-Martinez). That 7-game lead in the East could easily double by the end of the season.

Aren't you forgetting about Joe Blanton? He's quietly had a fantastic year after a slow start. I doubt Myers will contribute much of anything this year. I suspect if he is able to return, he'll be a pen option for long relief but won't be able to start since he won't have the arm strength for anything beyond 3 innings. Martinez might be ready to pitch in a few weeks but their current 5th starter Rodrigo Lopez has been steady and providing some quality starts the past few weeks.

I still wanted Holliday because you avoid the mess of having too many left-handed starters but a 1-2-3 of Hamels, Lee and Blanton is pretty formidable in a 5 game playoff series and then to have 2-3 options for a 7 game World Series is even better.

Shit, forgot about Blanton...you guys have starting pitchers coming out your ears.

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:29 pm

Brett Myers:wife :: Phillies:Indians

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:21 am

The thing about Cliff Lee is, with the exception of two years in his career, he hasn't been that spectacular. He's sub-.500 this season with the Indians. I wouldn't be counting on anything overly special if I was a Phillies fan. Definitely not what you saw last season.

Of course, may the Giants make your life rough for the next three days. Peace.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:23 pm

battery chucka' one wrote:The thing about Cliff Lee is, with the exception of two years in his career, he hasn't been that spectacular. He's sub-.500 this season with the Indians. I wouldn't be counting on anything overly special if I was a Phillies fan. Definitely not what you saw last season.

Of course, may the Giants make your life rough for the next three days. Peace.

I wouldn't put much stock in his record this year- the Indians just flat out suck and provide no run support for him. He still had a very good ERA (3.14) and now that he's coming to the NL to a team that can explode for double digit runs at any given moment, I think he'll be fine. He may not have had the career that Halladay has had but he's not exactly a 1 year wonder either. Make no mistake, I'd rather have Halladay but Lee was the 2nd best option and the fall off isn't that significant.

The Giants appear to be a very scrappy team but the Phillies were just sloppy last night. Defensively they've been solid all year and every once in a while they have a defensive clunker but they bounce back quickly. Tonight should be a great game to watch.

WolverineSteve · Post by **WolverineSteve** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:32 pm

Tigers get Jarret Washburn from Seattle for Luke French.

Tigers also looking at A's ss Cabrera.

Stay tuned.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:13 pm

WolverineSteve wrote:Tigers get Jarret Washburn from Seattle for Luke French.

Tigers also looking at A's ss Cabrera.

Stay tuned.

Nice addition of Washburn...so much for me thinking the Mariners weren't sellers after the trade they made the other day for Wilson and Snell. French showed some decent stuff while he was up...obviously good enough to be showcased in a deal to land a top ERA guy like Washburn.

The Tigers definitely now have top 3 to compete with Chicago's top 3 of Buehrle, Floyd and Danks. Porcello doesn't look he's a reliable option anymore as a #3 and Galarraga is a solid #4. Porcello can be moved to the 5th spot over maybe Bonderman or Robertson can move back into the rotation when they're healthy or maybe even bring Miner back out of the pen and make Porcello a long reliever for the rest of the season and keep his innings down.

As for Cabrera, ESPN says the Twins are in the mix for him...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368032

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:49 pm

Washburn has been a disappointment for the majority of his career. Started off decent in LA (few seasons with ERA in the 3s)… then consistently in the 4s. Went to huge ballpark in Seattle after a nice 2005 season and continued to disappoint for 3 years at big money until finally having his "breakout year" at age 35. I dunno. I don't trust him. He seems to do well when up for a contract then tanks it. I wouldn't count on him down the stretch or in the postseason. You can have this loser.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:53 pm

Cabrera to Minnesota...done deal
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:38 pm

Victor Martinez to the Red Sox
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:41 pm

People criticize and over analyze every acquisition, while forgetting there isn't some endless bevvy of star studded players out there just waiting to be signed by someone. You go with who's available and take your chances. Washburn was a fine pick up.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:06 pm

Lordamercy...the White Sox finally get Peavy (currently DL'd but could return in August)
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd ... p&c_id=mlb

Also, Braves and Red Sox swap first-sackers...Kotchman for LaRoche...LaRoche back to Atlanta and traded a second time in a week.

Yankees pick up Jerry Hairston

battery chucka' one · Post by **battery chucka' one** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:30 am

jiminphilly wrote:
battery chucka' one wrote:The thing about Cliff Lee is, with the exception of two years in his career, he hasn't been that spectacular. He's sub-.500 this season with the Indians. I wouldn't be counting on anything overly special if I was a Phillies fan. Definitely not what you saw last season.

Of course, may the Giants make your life rough for the next three days. Peace.

I wouldn't put much stock in his record this year- the Indians just flat out suck and provide no run support for him. He still had a very good ERA (3.14) and now that he's coming to the NL to a team that can explode for double digit runs at any given moment, I think he'll be fine. He may not have had the career that Halladay has had but he's not exactly a 1 year wonder either. Make no mistake, I'd rather have Halladay but Lee was the 2nd best option and the fall off isn't that significant.

The Giants appear to be a very scrappy team but the Phillies were just sloppy last night. Defensively they've been solid all year and every once in a while they have a defensive clunker but they bounce back quickly. Tonight should be a great game to watch.

Okay, Lee's doing alright. But then so did Hershel Walker his first game. I won't say the rest of the nuances of tonight's game until after what's done is done. Good job through four for the newbie.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:36 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:People criticize and over analyze every acquisition, while forgetting there isn't some endless bevvy of star studded players out there just waiting to be signed by someone. You go with who's available and take your chances. Washburn was a fine pick up.

Would you rather have him, or Peavy?

I think it was you whom I had a discussion with earlier in the season about this loser. Let's see how he does in the AL... in a sandbox.

I'd take Washburn, btw.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:44 am

Shoalzie wrote:Lee isn't Halladay

You get dumber every time you hit the submit button.

Just a quick PSA.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:23 am

rozy wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:Lee isn't Halladay
You get dumber every time you hit the submit button.

Just a quick PSA.

Don't put a guy that has had one great year into the same league as a guy with 5 seasons of at least 16 wins and has 5 seasons of throwing more innings than Lee's best year. Plus, Halladay has a better career winning percentage, ERA, OBA, WHIP, K/BB ratio, and GO/AO ratio. Lee had a nice year in '05 but damn near became a minor league washout. Don't put his last 1-1/2 years against a guy with the resume like Halladay's. Let's not forget that Halladay has been in the same division as the Yankees and Sox his entire career. The one thing they have in common is that Halladay did have a brief stint in the minors in the middle of his career to fine tune his craft.

I acknowledge that I got owned in the Glaus/Rolen debate but this one isn't hard to defend...Halladay is the proven commodity. I wasn't calling Lee a piece of crap or anything but I think most would agree that Lee was a Plan B pickup for the Phillies when their efforts for Halladay fizzled. I know wailing on me is fun for a lot of you but that wasn't as far out a statement as some other gems in the past.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:47 am

Idiot, RIGHT NOW, to say that ANY pitcher in MLB other than Lincecum is BETTER than Cliff Lee makes you a moron of the highest order. Seriously. And that is taking NOTHING away from Halladay. You are just too clinically ignorant to understand that. Or, you're a Tiger fan. Same difference...

Guess what, genius. By your illogic, Lincecum is no Pedro. By your illogic, Albert Pujols is no Willie Stargell. Stargell had a lot more HRs and hits than Albert. Seriously, he did. I don't care if he is dead, I want WILLIE, not Albert.

Granderson most CERTAINLY isn't Omar Moreno. No, really, he isn't. Omar had MANY more hits so I would much rather have him. Right now. Today.

Go ahead now, Corkster, throw a few more of Halladay's 5 years ago numbers at me. Hurry...

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:43 am

Take it easy, rozdale...saying Lee is better than every other pitcher in baseball other than Lincecum is passing over a some quality guys. How about a little love for Carpenter and Haren?

Going into the numbers this year...things in Lee's favor:
1. Lee leads the majors in quality starts (20)...Halladay has just 16
2. Halladay gets 1.35 more runs in support in his starts than Lee
3. Halladay is on the best defensive team in the Major League (team with the least errors and the highest fielding percentage)...which is significant given Halladay is a prolific groundball pitcher. However, Lee has pitched for two teams that are both top 7 in defense...not like he's been hung out to dry because poor defensive play.
4. Lee pitched for a team in Cleveland with the third worst bullpen ERA...which is meaningful to the fact that Halladay has 5 complete games to Lee's 3. Also Lee has 6 no decisions this year, all with Cleveland and were all quality starts. The Indians went on to lose 5 of those games and Lee left the game with the lead or with the game tied in 5 of those starts and left the other game trailing by 1 run.

If me saying "Lee isn't Halladay" sounds like me saying Lee isn't in the same stratosphere as Halladay, that's far from the truth. I praised the move by the Phillies to be able to get Lee. If anything, blame Ricciardi for overvaluing his own guy and not taking what Amaro had offered him.

If going down to the argument of "if I could to start either guy for a must win game tomorrow"...the difference between the two guys isn't all that much different. If you have a shaky bullpen, I'd feel comfortable having a guy like Halladay that is capable of going the distance but it isn't to say Lee can't do it either. Put either guy in a game tomorrow against the Yankees' lineup and put behind them the worst defense and bullpen and a team that may not score a lot of runs...I'm choosing a guy capable of throwing 9 innings and Halladay does that about as well as anyone in baseball and has done it for years.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:58 pm

Shoalzie wrote:rozy is right and I blatantly misspoke, yet again.

All ya had to say, bro. Taking all those words to get there was unnecessary unless they worked as a salve for you.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:44 pm

Toddowen wrote:Personally, I'd say Beckett is the best pitcher in the game right now and of the past few seasons. He wins the Cy this year....bank on it.

Beckett was great last night...he looks like his old self this year after a mediocre year in terms of what he's done up to this point. But best in the game right now? I have a hard time saying anyone is as good as Lincecum at this moment.

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:51 pm

rozy wrote:
Shoalzie wrote:rozy is right and I blatantly misspoke, yet again.
All ya had to say, bro. Taking all those words to get there was unnecessary unless they worked as a salve for you.

It was a way to say that I see your point. Don't fault me for choosing someone with a longer track record but maybe Lee finally has it all going and he's officially arrived as of last year. If was a GM and had to sign either Lee or Halladay to a long term deal...I don't think I can go wrong with either guy. Lee has a lot more tread on the tires given he's thrown almost half the innings of Halladay but is only a year younger. You have to wonder if Halladay begins to break down after all the innings he throws every year but he's probably benefited from not having to be in the postseason and put even more work on that arm. Lee would be considered a lightly-used pitcher in his early 30s while Halladay is more like a pickup with 200K miles but probably has enough juice for another 100K.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:13 pm

A dude with a .500 record is the 2nd best pitcher in the game? In the AL… Halladay, Becket, and Greinke are better than Lee. Right now. At the beginning of the year and at the end of the year. And they will be next year. And the year after. In the NL, at a minimum... you can add Cain, Carpenter, and Santana to your list (just Lincecum? please) of pitchers better than Lee. Cliff frigging Lee? Are you serious? Cliff Lee?

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:01 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:A dude with a .500 record is the 2nd best pitcher in the game? In the AL… Halladay, Becket, and Greinke are better than Lee. Right now. At the beginning of the year and at the end of the year. And they will be next year. And the year after. In the NL, at a minimum... you can add Cain, Carpenter, and Santana to your list (just Lincecum? please) of pitchers better than Lee. Cliff frigging Lee? Are you serious? Cliff Lee?

Hey rozy...I'll take this one.

I will agree that he's not the second best pitcher in the game but you can't judge Lee simply on his win-loss record. He's pitched well enough to win more games than he has but through poor run support and a bad bullpen in Cleveland, he left with a 7-9 record. You look at guys like Greinke and Edwin Jackson as other pitchers with good numbers but don't have as many wins as they probably should due to lack of run support.

A stat on ESPN.com called "tough losses"...games in which a pitcher throws a quality start but gets the loss, Lee is tied for the most with 6 along with Santana, Garland and Blanton. Guys like Greinke, Haren and Wainwright have 5. That stat is essentially an illustration of times a pitcher doesn't get run support in a game they pitch well enough to give their team a chance to win. Lee has 9 losses with 6 being from quality starts and as I mentioned before...in 5 of his 6 no-decisions, he had either the lead or left with the game tied.

Christ, have I just become a Cliff Lee apologist?

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote: Cliff frigging Lee? Are you serious? Cliff Lee?

My brothah, you are hung up on the name. Easy mistake. I could just as easily do the same. Take all the pitchers in MLB and remove your knowledge of them other than pitcher A, pitcher B, pitcher C etc. Now go take an objective look at his numbers over the last season and two/thirds. Just forget that it is Cliff frigging Lee. You're too bright to get sidetracked by starstruck syndrome. In my humble opinion, there is no really truer stat of just how effective a pitcher really has been than the quality start. See Shoalz's stats several posts above. Go ahead and pull last year's as well.

One game, tomorrow, all the marbles, Lincecum is the only pitcher I take ahead of Lee right now. 20 quality starts simply do not lie.

The best pitcher in the NL in 1987 had an 8-16 record. :wink:

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:57 am

rozy wrote:Now go take an objective look at his numbers over the last season and two/thirds. Just forget that it is Cliff frigging Lee. You're too bright to get sidetracked by starstruck syndrome. In my humble opinion, there is no really truer stat of just how effective a pitcher really has been than the quality start. See Shoalz's stats several posts above. Go ahead and pull last year's as well.

Shit... don't mind if I do.

Johann Santana has more quality starts over this time span than Cliff frigging Lee.

Btw -- Derek frigging Lowe and his shitty 4.08 ERA is tied for 3rd this year on this dumb-assed stat. Chad fucking Billingsley is tied for 8th along with some douche named Ubaldo Jimenez.

If the above 3 A-Holes really are in your top 10 pitchers in MLB, then you need to check yourself.

Next?

Oh yeah, the best pitcher in the game... Chris Carpenter was hurt for some of the year and has 6 less starts than Lee. Sometimes, bro, cumulative stats don't tell the whole story. Carpenter has been dominant this year. He's better than Lee. Don't be afraid to use your eyes and watch the two pitch.

Lastly, great to see your name on this board. There's not too many dudes who I respect more and enjoy trading jabs with than you. Feel free to pull up a chair anytime.

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:04 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote: Carpenter has been dominant this year. He's better than Lee. Don't be afraid to use your eyes and watch the two pitch.

In the very limited amount of games I've seen Lee pitch, he seems to be the real deal. It's damn amazing to see just how good a pitcher can be when he knows he's bound to get run support from a good offensive team. Carpenter is absolutely having a dominant year and it's yes he's having a better year statistical year than Lee but given Carpenter's injury problems he is not a better pitcher than Lee. If I had a choice between the 2 for a full year of baseball I'd take Lee.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:32 pm

jiminphilly wrote:If I had a choice between the 2 for a full year of baseball I'd take Lee.

That's great... and not the topic being debated.

The topic is the validity of using a flawed statistic to determine the best pitchers in the game… given the fact that the stat tells us that Derek Lowe is the 3rd best pitcher in the NL. And two other guys who are above-average pitchers… are now “top 10” material. Furthermore, pitching 6 innings doesn’t equate to a quality start in my book. There’s still a 3rd of the game left to play. This is an awful, awful stat.
6 innings 3 runs = 4.5 ERA and too much strain on the bullpen. That’s… “quality?”

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:46 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:If I had a choice between the 2 for a full year of baseball I'd take Lee.
That's great... and not the topic being debated.

It's not? Seems like you're debating the best pitchers in baseball. Lincecum appears to be the overall #1. You mentioned Carpenter being better than Lee. If you want to use a sample size of 2/3 of a year- yeah Carpenter is having a better year but overall Lee is a better pitcher.

You were saying?

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:58 pm

jiminphilly wrote:It's not? Seems like you're debating the best pitchers in baseball.

More importantly, dumbfuck, the stick by which they are measured is being debated. You can read, right?

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:19 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:It's not? Seems like you're debating the best pitchers in baseball.
More importantly, dumbfuck, the stick by which they are measured is being debated. You can read, right?

Sure can and according to "your book" the quality start stat is bogus.. but this discussion didn't start with a debate on faulty baseball stats, it started with a debate on the best pitchers in baseball and ultimately it still comes back to that debate using whatever metrics people wish to cite. You don't like the quality start stat? Fine. So roll out the ones you prefer but don't throw out this shit:

A dude with a .500 record is the 2nd best pitcher in the game?

and think your argument against quality starts has any merit.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:00 pm

jiminphilly wrote:ultimately it still comes back to that debate using whatever metrics people wish to cite.

[mora] Metrics? You're talking about metrics? Metrics? [/mora]

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Don't be afraid to use your eyes and watch the two pitch.

You can read, right? Look you complete failure… to answer your question about stats… I think ERA and W/L are a good starting point.
HOWEVER. At the end of the day, unless you've actually seen these guys pitch… you're not qualified to state unequivocally who's the best pitcher in the game. Got it? Any other stupid questions I can re-answer for you?

jiminphilly · Post by **jiminphilly** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:32 pm

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:
jiminphilly wrote:ultimately it still comes back to that debate using whatever metrics people wish to cite.

[mora] Metrics? You're talking about metrics? Metrics? [/mora]

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 wrote:Don't be afraid to use your eyes and watch the two pitch.

to answer your question about stats… I think ERA and W/L are a good starting point.
Lee had a sub .500 record and an ERA of 3.14. The lack of sun support by the Indians is obvious. It might be a starting point but obviously never paints the best picture.

HOWEVER. At the end of the day, unless you've actually seen these guys pitch… you're not qualified to state unequivocally who's the best pitcher in the game. Got it? Any other stupid questions I can re-answer for you?

What team do you work for again that makes you any more qualified than anyone else on this board or elsewhere who doesn't work in the industry? Oh right.. you just think you know more because you might watch more games on tv or because you might attend a few more games at a stadium.

I don't really want to get into a pissing match with you over games watched.. I'm guessing you have a few years on me so the numbers will be off based simply on that. You may have even played legion or college ball which you also may feel provides you with some 'extra' insight into how good a player is.

Me? I'll just continue to watch the games I watch, read the box scores and other stats and create my own opinion on the matter.. because that's really all we're doing here.. stating our opinion. And no one here is trying to state they're any more qualified than the other in determing who's the best.. we're simply comparing stats.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:52 pm

jiminphilly wrote:I'll just continue to watch the games I watch.

Why would you do that? Just throw out whatever stats fits your argument and run with it. Does it really matter that said stat tells us:

rozy wrote:The best pitcher in the NL in 1987 had an 8-16 record.