Fucking Purgatory

[Killian]

The worst possible loss. Eiher win or get blown out. Props to the Trojan fans. Barkley played awesome, too bad ND couldn't cover your fucking TE. Clausen showed a ton of balls in the 4th quarter. If he played like that the whole game, maybe things would have been different. Not having Floyd was a killer.

So now where does ND go from here? Weis is obviously accumulating talent, and learning to coach. Should Clausen and Tate come back next year, they have a NC calibre offense. The problem is the defense. If Weis stays, Tenuta needs to be run the fuck out of town.

But do you keep Weis or make the call to Gruden or Kelly? As the title of the post suggests, ND is in purgatory.

So cograts, Trojans. Lay the sig on me.

[GreginPG]

SC let off the gas to let ND back in the game and make it close so Chunky stays. :wink:
With that remaining schedule ND might be able to go 8-4, 9-3 and get in a nice bowl game.

[Killian]

If they lose another game Weis should, and will be fired.

[Moby Dick]

If they lose another game Weis should, and will be fired.

who's on deck?

[GreginPG]

If they lose another game Weis should, and will be fired.

Hmm I can't see that happening. We'll see.

[Carson]

If they lose another game Weis should, and will be fired.

who's on deck?

Urban Meyer.

[Killian]

Greg, his margin for error this year was razor thin. A loss to USC was expected, but not a blow out. Another loss was seen as ok because that happens to everyone. There isn't another team on their schedule hat should be within a touchdown of them.

Moby,
Gruden or Kelly would be the candidates after the hail mary calls. Both have expressed interest.

[Laxplayer]

Fuck him. fire him. This program is going nowhere with him. so he can fucking recruit, he can't coach. 3rd and 2, then 4th and 1 and they can't get it which leads to a TD drive by the Trojans. Then what the hell was that shit call on the slant to Tate 5 yds short of the goal like. fuck put Rudolph...you remember that big 6'6" TE that is a hell of a player.......on the wide side of the field and throw him the gd ball to win the game. Fuck you Charlie, fuck you Claussen, fuck all of you. Way to make my GD Saturday a shitty one. Fuck all of you......

[Van]

Tough day on the links there, Lax?

:)

[Laxplayer]

I didn't play golf today........fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck........I'm playing Tues and Weds at our local TPC course.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Personally, I think Clausen stays regardless of what happens from here on out, and I don't think that's my bias talking either. His career trajectory thus far parallels Quinn's at ND, and I think he needs the senior season to round things out.

Weis appears to be learning the head coaching ropes, and there's no question that he's closed the talent gap somewhat. And offense, his bailiwick, is no longer the problem. Still, there's no more margin for error left this season. On the bright side for Weis, of the remaining schedule, only Fredo and maybe Pitt and Stanford have even a remote shot at beating ND, and ND still has a considerable talent edge against all of those teams.

Agree with Killian on Tenuta. It looked like Judy Tenuta, not Jon, was coaching our defense in the 3rd quarter. Certainly our defense couldn't have been any worse if that was the case. Simply put, the pass defense cost us a chance to win this game. Special teams also continues to suck. Absolutely no excuse whatsoever for a blocked extra point, and that cost us a chance for a win in regulation versus playing merely to send the game to OT.

As for a possible coaching change, I still don't see Gruden as the answer, if only because he's been away from the college game for too long at this juncture.

[JayDuck]

I don't give a wet shit about Notre Dame, so do whatever you want to do about Charlie. But don't take anything away from this USC game for your decision.

This is the worst USC team since Pete's first year. Still a good team, of course, and they may even still win the Pac-10. But it wasn't any improvement from ND that was the reason that this game was as close as it was. This was USC closing the gap between them and you, not Notre Dame closing the gap on USC (and other good teams).

[Van]

Nah. ND is definitely better than they were last year. USC isn't as good as they've been, that's certainly true, but this year's ND team at least manages to win games and be competitive in games they would've lost or gotten blown out in the last two seasons.

There's still a wide gap though where it matters most. Compared to USC at least ND is still soft up front, on both sides of the ball. That may work against the Michigans and Purdues of the world but it's not going to get it done against USC. ND's O-line in particular was completely overmatched again.

Next year's game at the Coliseum will likely see another blowout for USC. Barkley and the offense will be much sharper, and nearly that entire D comes back.

[MuchoBulls]

If they lose another game Weis should, and will be fired.

who's on deck?

Gruden?

[TheJON]

I want ND to go 9-3 and then win their bowl game. That way they won't fire Charlie, and the ND fans will melt down. For my entertainment purposes, this is what I'm rooting for. Of course, I'd rather see them lose every game and keep Charlie because of an even bigger meltdown but that won't happen.

[Van]

I'd be curious to know what's the real story with Weis and his job security? Are there any set criteria which Weis must meet in order to keep his job? Are there any number of set-in-stone losses which would cost him his job, either in number or simply by team; i.e., "If you lose to Navy again, and you don't get us to a BCS bowl game, that's it. You're done."

I'm wondering how much TPTB at ND really are threatening his job? For all we know the guy's job was always secure - short of another 3-9 type season - and that's why he's remained so calmly smug throughout this whole ordeal.

Let's say ND loses one more game this year, to Pitt. Then they play Ohio St in some bowl game. Pryor comes down with throwing arm syphillis, Tressell has to bench him, and the back up QB leads OSU to an easy victory.

Does 9-3 with another bowl loss get him fired?

I'd like to know what's really going on behind the scenes there.

[Killian]

If that were to happen JON, ND fans wouldn't melt down. Like I told Lax last night, Weis has built the offense to one of the best in the nation. It's the defense that has completely let him down. Tenuta's game plan against UofM was awful and it cost them the game. Yesterday, the defense. Gave up huge plays on 3rd and long and had shitty calls in critical situations.

If ND loses a close game to Pitt and they win a bowl game, I can see them keeping Weis and I would be fine with it. If that was the scenario, that will also likely lead to a top 5-10 class. If Clausen and Tate come back next year, they will have a NC type of offense. If they can hire a good DC, they will be a top 10 team.

Weis is learning how to be a head coach at the college level. That would be fine at most schools, but it's not at ND. His biggest mistake was not starting Evan Sharpley for the whole year in 2007. If he had, he probably could have gotten close to .500. Had he done that, he wouldn't be in this position. But he did what he did, and he is were he is.

Van, it's number and type. He loses close to Pitt and wins out, he'll be back. He loses to BC, UConn or even Stanford, he's likely gone. The one thing Weis has going for him is his willingness to try to get better by changing coaches. If he stays, Tenuta and Brown will likely get the axe. And then it wouldn't surprise me to see him hire Crennell as DC and Bill Lewis to take back over as DB coach.

Regardless, ND is in much better shape because of Charlie Weis. Be it him, Brian Kelly or Jon Gruden coaching them next season, ND has the athletes to compete at a very high level.

[TheJON]

Weis is learning how to be a head coach at the college level. That would be fine at most schools, but it's not at ND. His biggest mistake was not starting Evan Sharpley for the whole year in 2007. If he had, he probably could have gotten close to .500. Had he done that, he wouldn't be in this position. But he did what he did, and he is were he is.

I don't get this. 2007 you went 3-9. How would your program be better right now had you gone 6-6 instead? I'd say you're probably better off because of the lumps Claussen took that year. 6-6 coaches get fired at ND anyways, and that was 2 years ago so I fail to see what negative impact that really had on the current state of your program.

[Killian]

Everyone around ND knew they would be bad in 2007, just not 3-9 bad. Had he gone 6-6, 7-6, and then 10-3, no one would be calling for his job. It would be a natural progression.

I disagree about Clausen. In retrospect, it would have been better for Clausen to have his surgery earlier and miss the 2007 to properly heal.

[TheJON]

Everyone around ND knew they would be bad in 2007, just not 3-9 bad. Had he gone 6-6, 7-6, and then 10-3, no one would be calling for his job. It would be a natural progression.

I disagree about Clausen. In retrospect, it would have been better for Clausen to have his surgery earlier and miss the 2007 to properly heal.

Again, in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter if Notre Dame went 3-9 or 6-6 in 2007? Sure, 2007 woulda sucked a lot less but right now ND's program is no worse than had they gone 6-6 in 2007. 2007 does not matter right now. All that matters is what Charlie does from here on out. If he went 6-6 in 2007 and has a bad year this year he's still gone. Besides, you're Notre Dame. Do you really give a crap about some dot com bowl in podunk Alabama? That's where you would have gone.

[WolverineSteve]

When did ND become a place for on the job training?

[TheJON]

When did ND become a place for on the job training?

2 of their last 3 coaches were on-the-job trained.

[WolverineSteve]

Shit now that I think of it take it back to Jerry Faust (sp?). My bad. It's a shame what ND has become. Truth be told Weiss can get it done in time. What makes domers think that Gruden and Meyer are waiting for this gig to open up.? What makes them think Gruden can coach at the cfb level? Kelly I will grant you, but mid-major guys are hit or miss. It's not like ND can go out and get whomever they want to coach, Weiss wasn't exactly their first choice when they harpooned him.

[Van]

Weiss wasn't exactly their first choice when they harpooned him.

Jesus...

[Killian]

The point is this: those around the program were expecting a rebuilding year in 2007. A 6 or 7 win type of year. If things went really shitty, 5 wins. Weis tried to install the spread with Demitrius Jones, and it was a disaster. Weis panicked and pulled the plug after 4 or 5 series. He made every wrong move you could and finished 3-9. The powers that be shocked and had serious questions about Weis. That was followed by a second half colapse and loss at home to Syracuse. What bought Weis this year was his recruiting, his willingness to change assistants and the argument that the talent he was recruiting was finally starting to mature.

Had he gone 6-6 and even suffered the same second half colapse last year, questions would just now be coming up, but would quickly be quelled by looking at the offensive production. They would be calling for Charlie to make a move at DC, but few would be calling for his head.

[Van]

Killian, when are you gonna start sportin' that nifty sig your team's D earned you?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33286

[Killian]

Gruden has made his feelings on ND known many times. That and the fact he was essentially hired in 2001 only to have Monk fuck it up.

And Faust wasn't the beginning. Joe Kuarich and Hugh Devore preceded him. ND is well known to self inflict pain on the football program. Fr. Hesburgh tried to deemphasize football in the '50's and almost crippled the program. Monk did the same in the early '90's.

[Killian]

Killian, when are you gonna start sportin' that nifty sig your team's D earned you?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33286

As soon as I get into work on Monday and am not posting from my BlackBerry.

[Van]

Gotcha.

<-----Can't dick around in the interwebs with his little cell phone. Pretty sure though it takes pictures.

[TheJON]

What's up with having to see double posts when you hit "post a reply" on a Blackberry? Or is it just mine? Its fucking annoying. Makes it hard to read especially when I've got an education from a school in the midwest.

[Terry in Crapchester]

Lots to comment on here, where to start . . .

The worst possible loss. Eiher win or get blown out.

. . .

But do you keep Weis or make the call to Gruden or Kelly? As the title of the post suggests, ND is in purgatory.

After sleeping on this comment, I'm not sure I agree with this. At a minimum, it definitely depends on one's perspective.

Going into this season, I think there were three big questions surrounding this program:

1. Is ND making progress toward a return to the national elite?
2. Are we there yet?
3. Will a coaching change help or hinder this progress?

At this juncture, I think the respective answers to those questions are yes, no, and dunno. So I can see where you're coming from with the title of this thread.

Thing is, at this juncture, the answer to at least one of those questions was going to be uncertain no matter what. Just my opinion, but I'd rather see the answer to the last question be uncertain than the answer to the first question be uncertain, which would have been the case in the event of a blowout loss.

Truth be told, this week could be telling as to Weis' future, at least from an old-fashioned motivational standpoint. Assuming he hasn't yet completely lost the team, there's absolutely no excuse for ND not to come out as fired up for this game as Fredo, for a change.

This was USC closing the gap between them and you, not Notre Dame closing the gap on USC (and other good teams).

I have to disagree with this, particularly if you're looking at things from a global perspective.

In 2007, we went 3-9. Of those 9 losses, only one (Navy) was potentially a winnable game.
In 2008, we went 7-6. Of those 6 losses, three (@ North Carolina, Pitt, Syracuse) were potentially winnable games.
This year, so far, we're 4-2. Both of those two losses (@ Michigan, USC) were potentially winnable games.

Not to mention, there's a difference between a loss to Navy or Syracuse being a potentially winnable game, on one hand, and a loss to USC being a potentially winnable game, on the other.

From any reasonably objective standpoint, that's improvement, although we're still not back to where we need to be.

Again, in the grand scheme of things, does it really matter if Notre Dame went 3-9 or 6-6 in 2007? Sure, 2007 woulda sucked a lot less but right now ND's program is no worse than had they gone 6-6 in 2007. 2007 does not matter right now. All that matters is what Charlie does from here on out. If he went 6-6 in 2007 and has a bad year this year he's still gone. Besides, you're Notre Dame. Do you really give a crap about some dot com bowl in podunk Alabama? That's where you would have gone.

Coupla points on why 6-6 in '07 would've been better than 3-9.

First, 6-6 would've provided a much better stepping off point for the following season than 3-9 did. I have to disagree with Killian on one point: I don't think Weis would've survived a 6-6 finish in '08 had he also been 6-6 in '07. On the other side of the coin, ND had most of its starters returning between '07 and '08, so I don't think the '08 team would've been 6-6 had the '07 team finished at 6-6.

Another issue would've been the historical. Say what you will about ND, but one positive about them, at least in my lifetime, was that even when the program was down (and since I was a student, that's been the case more often than not), ND never was truly among the dregs of BTPCF programs. From 1964 to 2006, ND won at least 5 games every year. Five wins in a season might not sound like much (and it isn't), but the only other program that can make the same claim is Nebraska. 2007 changed all of that, of course.

Forget about the bowl game. There's a part of me that would, if I could, go back to the days when there were only five bowl games, and Notre Dame, by choice, never played in any of them (although I realize that ship has sailed forever). And there are plenty of ND fans that are far more hostile to the idea of bowl games than I am.

What makes them think Gruden can coach at the cfb level?

It might surprise you to hear this, but I actually agree with you on this point. Gruden hasn't been involved in the college game since '91. And the differences between coaching in college and coaching in the NFL are significant. Recruiting might be the most obvious difference, but it's not the only one, or, for my money, even the most important one. Weis alone should prove that.

If it were offered to him, Gruden would take the ND job IF he still has the itch to get back into coaching, and IF he doesn't see himself, at this juncture, as exclusively a NFL head coach. But those are a few big if's, and for that matter, Gruden has to be considered a somewhat iffy hire as well for ND. Matter of fact, if ND were inclined to go the NFL route, I'd prefer Coughlin to Gruden for the following reasons: (1) Coughlin has been involved in the college game more recently than Gruden; and (2) Coughlin, unlike Gruden, has head coaching experience at the college level. Of course, ND won't get Coughlin (fwiw, I think Coughlin would take the ND job in a vacuum, but as a practical matter, he won't leave the situation he has now with the Giants).

[SoCalTrjn]

Keep Charlie.


At least another 10 years, USC will have a 2 game lead in the series by then

[MuchoBulls]

This year, so far, we're 4-2. Both of those two losses (@ Michigan, USC) were potentially winnable games.

On the flip side, 3 of your 4 wins were very losable games.

[GreginPG]

Shit now that I think of it take it back to Jerry Faust (sp?). My bad. It's a shame what ND has become. Truth be told Weiss can get it done in time. What makes domers think that Gruden and Meyer are waiting for this gig to open up.? What makes them think Gruden can coach at the cfb level? Kelly I will grant you, but mid-major guys are hit or miss. It's not like ND can go out and get whomever they want to coach, Weiss wasn't exactly their first choice when they harpooned him.

RACK!