Complainian: Numbers Lie

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:54 am

New York Jets running back LaDainian Tomlinson says San Diego Chargers held him back

LaDainian Tomlinson, released by the Chargers after a two-year decline, offered this Thursday to those who believe his best days are behind him: The stats lie.

"The things that happened in San Diego, everything was taken away from me," the Jets' newest running back said. "There wasn't an emphasis on running the football anymore, my best fullback was gone, the linemen were pass-blocking and it was a passing quarterback and a passing coach. So, the situation's kind of misleading when you look on film."

Tomlinson, who turns 31 in June, rushed for a career-low 733 yards last season. He signed a two-year, $5.2 million contract with the Jets and is looking forward to working in a complementary role with Shonn Greene.

"Hopefully," he said, "we can be like Jordan and Pippen."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footb ... z0k1cUP4ih

What a sad, pathetic washed-up dickbag. That's right, CT. Everything was taken away from you because you suck dog balls. You're shot out. Done. Can't blame him for pulling down a $5.2 million dollar payday, though. Props on that.

Yeah, Norv Turner never features the run game when he has a stud running back. Emmitt Smith, Ricky Williams, Frank Gore's one good year, CT on Norv's first go around as OC with the Bolts. I honestly hope this cringingly inarticulate douche dies in a fiery car wreck.

Fuck you, CT.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:55 pm

He's an ignorant pussy.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:23 pm

the situation's kind of misleading when you look on film.

It's misleading in the sense of the Jests looking at that film and thinking he still has some game left.

Because naturally, the Bolts would pass-block on running plays and just go to a passing offense on a whim. Yeah, every team just phases out 30 touchdown guys in their prime without someone waiting in the wings.

enjoy fetching Greene's Gatorade twat.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:45 pm

poptart wrote:He's an ignorant pussy.

That he is. He's also the best player in franchise history.

fitting.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:49 pm

Sirfindafold wrote:
poptart wrote:He's an ignorant pussy.

That he is. He's also the best player in franchise history.

Bullshit.

Sincerely,

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:26 am

Junior Seau, Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow might also have something to say about that.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:44 pm

Van wrote:Junior Seau, Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow might also have something to say about that.

Seau - Here's a guy that would jump on the pile after a tackle has already been made, then jump up and do some type fag dance like he accomplished something. However, he does get points cause he's an 'SC Alum, had a long pro career, his old lady is hot and he was smart enough to get on a good team late in his career.

Fouts - Laughable. This motherfucker had a losing record as a starting QB. So what if he put a few numbers in garbage time. Somehow he sucked enough dick to land in the HOF over more deserving players like two-time Super Bowl winner Jim Plunkett.

Winslow - This dude showed heart in ONE game, and they lost it.

Sorry disCharger fans, CT is your poster boy.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:53 pm

Bullshit.

Sincerely,

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:34 pm

Sirfindafold wrote:
Van wrote:Junior Seau, Dan Fouts and Kellen Winslow might also have something to say about that.
Seau - Here's a guy that would jump on the pile after a tackle has already been made, then jump up and do some type fag dance like he accomplished something. However, he does get points cause he's an 'SC Alum, had a long pro career, his old lady is hot and he was smart enough to get on a good team late in his career.

Try again. He was a twelve-time Pro Bowler, a seven-time 1st team All-Pro and a two-time 2nd team All-Pro, as well as being selected to the '90s All-Decade team. He also helped lead San Diego to an appearance in the Super Bowl, which is something LaDanian never accomplished.

LaDainian was a five-time Pro Bowler and a four-time 1st team All-Pro.

Seau > LaDanian, and it's no contest.

Fouts - Laughable. This motherfucker had a losing record as a starting QB. So what if he put a few numbers in garbage time. Somehow he sucked enough dick to land in the HOF over more deserving players like two-time Super Bowl winner Jim Plunkett.

Fouts was a six-time Pro Bowler and a three-time 1st team All-Pro - in an era when he was going up against the likes of Montana, Marino, Anderson, Esiason, etc - as well as being selected to the '80s All-Decade Team.

Jim Plunkett never even made a Pro Bowl, much less 1st team All-Pro. He also threw 198 INTs vs only 164 TDs, and his QB rating was a paltry 67.5.

Plunkett, like Trent Dilfer, just happened to play on far superior teams than Fouts or Marino.

Winslow - This dude showed heart in ONE game, and they lost it.

The fact that he was a five-time Pro Bowler and three-time 1st team All-Pro, along with being selected to the '80s All-Decade Team and the 75th Anniversary All-Time team, says he did a lot more than show heart in only one game.

Sorry disCharger fans, CT is your poster boy.

Nope, it's Junior Seau, and it's not even close. Lance Alworth would be second, with seven All-AFL selections and membership on the 75th Anniversary All-Time team. LaDanian would be fighting to even get on the podium, but Junior Seau most definitely resides on the top step, with only Alworth even having an argument.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:12 pm

Plunkett = Dilfer?

You're a fuckin' jerkoff.

Plunkett has two Super Bowl wins and was the MVP in one of them.

Dilfer has one Super Bowl win on a team that dominated with defense.

no comparison.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:13 pm

problem?

You brought up Dilfer. Your "problem" I guess.

Anyway, I assume the reason you are on Fouts' dick is because he put up some decent numbers, certainly not because he won big games. Ten times the QB? Whose to say Plunkett wouldn't put up those types of numbers under Air Coryell?

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:28 pm

More likely, who's to say that Fouts doesn't win Plunkett's rings were he on those Raiders teams instead of Plunkett.

SFAF, look at those numbers of Plunkett's. Dude isn't even in the discussion of HOF QBs. Except for Don Sutton being enshrined in Cooperstown the HOF is for people you don't even need to think two seconds about before you say, "Yep. HOF-er." They were the very best of their generation. They dominated.

Plunkett never even made a single All-Pro or Pro Bowl team, and his numbers suck. Forget about it. You have as much right to be in the HOF as he does.

Oh, and I notice that you piped down about Tomlinson being the Chargers' all-time best too.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:36 pm

Sorry, CT owns most scoring records and many NFL scoring records.

But I'm sure you knew that since you seem to have no life away from the computer and T1B.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:20 pm

Sorry, but twelve Pro Bowls and seven 1st team All-Pro selections trumps five and four all day long.

Oh, and yeah, a RB will tend to score more points than a LB or QB. Imagine that.

:doh:

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:46 pm

Seau was a great player for SD over a 12 yr period, but I don't think he IMPACTED things for success as greatly as Tomlinson did during his time.

Lady T, largely due to his position on the field, was able to be more of a difference maker, imo.

I'd say Alworth is SD's greatest all-time playah.
LT is #2.
Let's call Seau and D. Farts tied at #3.
Winslow is an afterthought, although he was a helluva player and a LOAD for DB's to handle.

Farts was a better player than J. Plunkett.
Plunkett had terrific leadership ability, but he was surrounded by greatness.
Farts' numbers were a bit inflated because of the system SD had in play at that time, but he was a very solid QB and would have done very well had he switched places with Plunkett.
Plunkett in SD at that time?
Not as well.

I luv me some J. Plunkett, but I always laff whenever his name and Hall of Fame converge.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:00 am

poptart wrote:Seau was a great player for SD over a 12 yr period, but I don't think he IMPACTED things for success as greatly as Tomlinson did during his time.

Right. And the real LT didn't impact his team's success as much as Joe Morris or Phil Simms.

Lady T, largely due to his position on the field, was able to be more of a difference maker, imo.

So what? He wasn't a difference maker for long enough, and the difference he made never resulted in more team success.

I'd say Alworth is SD's greatest all-time playah.

I'd at least say that one is debatable, though he played when the Chargers were in the watered-down AFL so his achievements aren't quite as noteworthy as someone's who played in the combined NFL-AFL.

LT is #2.

No, he isn't. He's no higher than #3.

Let's call Seau and D. Farts tied at #3.

Let's not and say we did. The facts do not support Seau being anything less than #1 or 1A with Alworth.

Winslow is an afterthought, although he was a helluva player and a LOAD for DB's to handle.

Winslow was just as good at his position as Tomlinson was at his, and for just as long. He may not deserve to be above Tomlinson, but he's certainly nobody's afterthought.

Farts was a better player than J. Plunkett.

That one's not even debatable.

Plunkett had terrific leadership ability, but he was surrounded by greatness.

BFD. It's easy to have great leadership when you're working behind one of the two or three best O-lines that ever existed - especially on the left side, Plunkett's blind side - and your D is just about as good.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:53 am

Van wrote:I'd at least say that one is debatable, though he played when the Chargers were in the watered-down AFL so his achievements aren't quite as noteworthy as someone's who played in the combined NFL-AFL.

That "watered down" AFL whipped the shit out of the NFL...hence the merger.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:22 am

Look at you, Van.
I came in here in support of many of your points, and you go point-by-point quote feature on me.

haha

Oh well.

I don't agree with some of your last takes, but I'll leave them to you.

But THIS one is too wack to leave alone.

Winslow was just as good at his position as Tomlinson was at his, and for just as long. He may not deserve to be above Tomlinson, but he's certainly nobody's afterthought.

Winslow is definitely an afterthought in this discussion and he was NOT as good as Tomlinson at his position, and for as long.

And even if he was, the value a dominant TE has for an offense is not comparable to the value a dominant RB has for an offense.

For example, has a TE ever won a league MVP award?

How many RBs have won the award?

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:40 am

poptart wrote:Winslow is definitely an afterthought in this discussion and he was NOT as good as Tomlinson at his position, and for as long.

I don't know about that. Winslow was a dominating player at his position and a 3 time All Pro. I'm not saying he's as good as CT, but he most definitely is NOT an afterthought at his own position or as a football player in general. Afterthoughts don't lead the league in receptions in back to back years at tight end.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:09 am

He's an afterthought because if we polled a group of NFL experts and asked them to list, say, their top 25 players of all-time, we would see Tomlinson's name appear on some of the lists.

Nobody would have Winslow on their list.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:11 am

poptart wrote:He's an afterthought because if we polled a group of NFL experts and asked them to list, say, their top 25 players of all-time, we would see Tomlinson's name appear on some of the lists.

Nobody would have Winslow on their list.

Sadly you're right. But you'll be wrong in a few years.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:19 am

Winslow is 86th all-time in career receptions.
He's 122nd in receiving yds.
He's 134th in TD's

Lady is an NFL MVP.
He's 8th all-time in rushing yds.
He's 2nd in career rushing TDs and 3rd in overall TDs.
He's 9th all-time in yds from scrimmage.
Hell, he's 92nd (just 6 spots behind Winslow) in receptions. lol

Winslow does not rate.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:03 am

poptart wrote:Winslow is 86th all-time in career receptions.
He's 122nd in receiving yds.
He's 134th in TD's

He was a fucking tight end, you stupid douche. Good luck finding a top five all time NFL tight end list that doesn't have Kellen Winslow on it.

Is CT one of the five best NFL running backs on anybody's list?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:41 am

mvscal wrote:He was a fucking tight end

lol

That's sort of the point, twat.

By virtue of both his performance and his position on the field, his value just simply was not as great as Lady T's.

It's really not even close.

Keep flapping.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:57 am

mvscal wrote:
poptart wrote:Winslow is 86th all-time in career receptions.
He's 122nd in receiving yds.
He's 134th in TD's
He was a fucking tight end, you stupid douche. Good luck finding a top five all time NFL tight end list that doesn't have Kellen Winslow on it.

Is CT one of the five best NFL running backs on anybody's list?

Hammer, meet Mr. Nail's head.

pop, that point of yours was nearly as stupid as SFAF comparing Tomlinson and Seau on the basis of points scored.

Who are your all-time best TEs?

Hmmmm...

John Mackey
Mike Ditka
Shannon Sharpe (God, I hate that guy, but still....)
Ozzie Newsome
Dave Casper
Tony Gonzales
Russ Francis
Todd Christenson
Bob Trumpy

Yeah, Kellen Winslow is in the Top Five there.

How about all-time best RBs?

Jim Brown
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
Gale Sayers (At least according to those who are willing to forgive him the brevity of his career)
O.J.
Erik Dickerson
Earl Campbell (Same as Sayers)
Emmitt Smith
Marcus Allen

Nah. Tomlinson is closer to being Shawn Alexander than he will ever be to cracking that Top Five.

As to your other point, Merlin Olsen and Reggie White were more important to their teams' success than Les Josephson and Wilbert Montgomery. RBs are important, but so are anchors on an O-line or guys around whom entire defenses are built.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:26 am

Van, first, one could realistically make a case for Tomlinson being one of the top 5 running backs of all-time.
Not that I would, but the case could be made.

I've already cited some of the important numbers.

He won an MVP.
He's 2nd all-time in rushing TDs.
He's 9th all-time in yds from scrimmage.
He's 8th all-time in rushing yds.

Not that it matters, anyway, because only one who is either brain-dead or in denial would want to claim that Winslow was a more valuable Charger than Tomlinson was.

There is no way Winslow rates higher on the list of Charger greats than Lady T does.

Mvscal's got a hard on because LT dissed his team.

I have no idea what your excuse could be.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:11 pm

poptart wrote:Not that it matters, anyway, because only one who is either brain-dead or in denial would want to claim that Winslow was a more valuable Charger than Tomlinson was.

All well and good, but that's not what you said.

poptart wrote:Winslow is definitely an afterthought in this discussion and he was NOT as good as Tomlinson at his position, and for as long.

Winslow is in the top five all time at his position. CT is not. It was not a question of relative value.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:23 pm

pop, again mvscal nailed it. It's your comment about Winslow being an afterthought. Trying to support that position by comparing a RB's scoring numbers and rushing yards to a TE's is just ridiculous.

And yes, an argument can be made that Tomlinson is a Top Five RB. An argument can also be made that Shrubber is a prime example of a healthy, thriving triathlete.

Point being, no, Tomlinson doesn't even get a sniff at the Top Five, while Kellen Winslow is almost certainly Top Five, and possibly even #1.

Your dismissals of Seau are simply ludicrous. He is so clearly above Tomlinson that it's not even debatable.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:01 pm

Top five at his position doesn't mean shit.

Who has a bigger influence on the outcome of any game. The TE who catches 6-8 passes? or the RB who rushes 25 times and catches 5-6 passes.

That being said, I'm sure van will be selecting a TE in the first round of this year's FFL draft.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:28 pm

No, I would actually prioritize the QB position well above all other positions, which is why I might still place Fouts above Tomlinson in the Chargers' hierarchy.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:02 pm

Sirfindafold wrote:Top five at his position doesn't mean shit.

Who has a bigger influence on the outcome of any game. The TE who catches 6-8 passes? or the RB who rushes 25 times and catches 5-6 passes.

That being said, I'm sure van will be selecting a TE in the first round of this year's FFL draft.

Looking back at the stats, you could have justified in a ppr league taking Winslow with a late first round pick in 80,81 or 83. He was THAT good.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:05 pm

Van wrote:Your dismissals of Seau are simply ludicrous. He is so clearly above Tomlinson that it's not even debatable.

Ban yourself immediately from this forum. I can't count how many times I heard him get credited for a tackle because this cuntbag was the first off of the pile going all African Anteater ritual and shit. Meanwhile, if he actually made the play, he'd be the last one to get up. If doing aerobics after the play is over adds value to your game, then this fucker would have his own wing in Canton. He is clearly one of the most overrated and overhyped douchesorbets in the history of organized sports. If Luau didn't go to USC, would you seriously be sucking the poi from his Mahi Mahi so hard?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:19 pm

Van, YOU began this because I responded to this ...

Van wrote:Winslow was just as good at his position as Tomlinson was at his, and for just as long.

You can look it up.
Winslow had THREE big years, that's it, and his legend was built largely on the foundation of one huge playoff game.

Tomlinson's career fucking DWARFS Winslow's.

At any rate, 'fold hit it with this take ...

Sirfindafold wrote:Top five at his position doesn't mean shit.

Who has a bigger influence on the outcome of any game. The TE who catches 6-8 passes? or the RB who rushes 25 times and catches 5-6 passes.

The Winslow nut-jugglin' is absurd.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:43 pm

pop, Winslow and Tomlinson have nearly the same number of Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections, so no, Tomlinson's career hardly dwarfs Winslow's. That's where you keep falling on your face. You keep making these sweepingly dismissive statements about Winslow that have no basis in fact. Winslow was just as good at his position as Tomlinson, and for just as long.

ucant, your hysterical anecdotal observations notwithstanding, twelve Pro Bowls and seven 1st team All-Pro selections says that Seau was doing a lot more than merely getting credit for piling on late and doing wild dances afterwards. To claim otherwise is pure bias on your part, and completely ill-informed bias at that.

Sirfindafold · Post by **Sirfindafold** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:18 pm

Van wrote:pop, Winslow and Tomlinson have nearly the same number of Pro Bowl and All-Pro selections, so no, Tomlinson's career hardly dwarfs Winslow's. That's where you keep falling on your face. You keep making these sweepingly dismissive statements about Winslow that have no basis in fact. Winslow was just as good at his position as Tomlinson, and for just as long.

With that bullshit logic, I guess we should include Rolf Benirschle and John Carney in the discussion of the all-time chargette.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:52 pm

Sirfindafold wrote:I guess we should include Rolf Benirschle and John Carney in the discussion of the all-time chargette.

Don't forget Paul McGuire.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:16 pm

I thought he was a Buffalo Bill?

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:04 pm

Van wrote:I thought he was a Buffalo Bill?

McGuire started his career as a Charger. He helped them win their only AFL title. But yea, people do think of him as a Buffalo Bill. Probably because he chooses to park his drunken, pickled carcass in the suburban Buffalo area.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:14 pm

Well, that, and the fact that he spent the majority of his football career as a Bill, and he always talks about his days as a Bill.

As far as I know, I'm probably the only person on this planet who actually enjoys that guy's on-air shtick. I must not be, or else he wouldn't remain on the air, yet all I've ever heard from people is how they can't stand the guy; it's similar to Joe Theisman.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Van wrote:Well, that, and the fact that he spent the majority of his football career as a Bill, and he always talks about his days as a Bill.

As far as I know, I'm probably the only person on this planet who actually enjoys that guy's on-air shtick. I must not be, or else he wouldn't remain on the air, yet all I've ever heard from people is how they can't stand the guy; it's similar to Joe Theisman.

Back before the Bills marketed themselves as a regional product and made their players available to Rochester radio, McGuire used to do a Monday morning update with a Rochester radio show. I heard this guy's verbal diarrhea once a week for years. And I would lay money that he never once did that show sober. He's actually better as an announcer only because tries to be sober for games and he shares time with the play by play guy.