I may yet have to eat some crow regarding TimTebow(tm).

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:53 pm

I saw a show yesterday about Jon Gruden working with Tebow on his crazy mechanics, and god help me, yep, Tebow sure looked like he'd greatly improved his sundial-slow throwing delivery. He'd brought the ball up from his hip, closer to his shoulder, and he'd significantly reduced his delivery time. The most compelling aspect of it was his willingness to admit to his deficiencies, and his desire to work towards correcting them. Despite all his successes, he seems to carry no trace of "I am TimTebow(tm), the most successful QB in Meatgrinder history. I'm a winner. I ain't broke. I don't need fixing."

As Gruden said, "He's very coachable."

It remains to be seen whether Tebow can ingrain these new mechanics into his delivery to such an extent that they'll become his default response even under heavy pressure, but the guy was hardly recognizable as the Tebow we all saw in college and at the NFL combine.

Maybe he will prove to be that rare exception. The simple fact that he seems so committed to putting in the work to become better, that may make the difference. Watching him yesterday, yeah, one way or the other I'd want him on my team.

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:07 pm

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:26 pm

And on the 40th day Tebow ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father...

I can't wait to see this guy take a real hit in the NFL.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:45 pm

B, he's certainly better equipped than most QBs to take a real hit in the NFL.

Like I said, though, what will his default reaction be under pressure? Will he revert to that wide-arcing slinging motion, or will his muscle memory change to the point that this new motion becomes his default motion regardless of the situation?

His footwork seems to be pretty decent now too on those seven-step drops.

For all of that, the biggest issue for any young QB in the NFL will always be the ability to make quick, correct reads. In that regard, his time at Florida did nothing to prepare him for what he'll need to be able to do in the NFL. His responsibilities as a Gator QB simply didn't involve any pro-style reads, and he was never under pro-style defensive pressure.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:30 pm

Van wrote: In that regard, his time at Florida did nothing to prepare him for what he'll need to be able to do in the NFL. His responsibilities as a Gator QB simply didn't involve any pro-style reads, and he was never under pro-style defensive pressure.

This is why he will struggle. There have been successful QB's with goofy mechanics (Kosar, Rivers, etc.) so that isn't going to be the main thing that holds him back. It's exactly what you said; reading an NFL defense and progressing through his throws. At UF, he had 2 looks and if they weren't open, he tucked and ran.

We'll see how he does under center, with his pre snap reads, his post snap reads, his drop, and then his mechanics.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:14 pm

I think Tebow has a good chance to succeed in the NFL.

He has a LOT of very positive attributes.

He won't be ready right out of the gate, but he's going to work his ass off at his craft and I could see him doing well a couple/few years down the road.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:18 pm

poptart wrote:I think Tebow has a good chance to succeed in the NFL.

He has a LOT of very positive attributes.

He won't be ready right out of the gate, but he's going to work his ass off at his craft and I could see him doing well a couple/few years down the road.

At what position?

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:49 pm

At QB, you brainless fuckwit.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:08 pm

mvscal wrote:At QB, you brainless fuckwit.

After the curb stomping I gave you in the other thread(s), you should just stop right now.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:44 pm

BSmack wrote:And on the 40th day Tebow ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father...

I can't wait to see this guy take a real hit in the NFL.

Have you seen Tebow play a single down? When I think of some of the starters in the League, I can't figure out why they are equipped to take such hits, but not Tebow. He certainly can take hits and absorb contact with the best of them. That's part of his game, really. The only issue I see is he may be a little too enthusiastic about it, which could lead to injury/concussion problems. But that's coachable.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:03 am

Van wrote:B, he's certainly better equipped than most QBs to take a real hit in the NFL.

I wouldn't go that far. Tebow already has one big time concussion on his resume that we know about. He's a big boy, so he'll get a little help in that regard. But he's going to see more unexpected hits in one year of life in the NFL than he got in 4 years at Florida. Even more so if he's unable to learn pro reads.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:06 am

But he's going to see more unexpected hits in one year of life in the NFL than he got in 4 years at Florida.

Yep, him and every other rookie qb that ever entered the league.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:17 am

B, that hit he took against Kentucky would've knocked the bejeezus out of anybody. He hasn't shown himself to be the least bit injury-prone, and he's a much bigger, more physical player than most QBs entering the league. Like Mgo said, the only issue there with him will be the need to curb his instinct to initiate contact; otherwise, he's a big, strong, physical player, so he's definitely better equipped than most QBs to take NFL hits.

Of course none of that will help him if he's dumber than a bag of cocks and unable to deliver the ball at the right time to the right person.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:13 am

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:Have you seen Tebow play a single down?

You mean like in the Senior Bowl when he looked like a caveman trying to understand fire when he lined up under center and make basic reads? Count me as not impressed. He looked like a total stiff.

When I think of some of the starters in the League, I can't figure out why they are equipped to take such hits, but not Tebow. He certainly can take hits and absorb contact with the best of them. That's part of his game, really. The only issue I see is he may be a little too enthusiastic about it, which could lead to injury/concussion problems. But that's coachable.

That's great. Then he should have shown up at the combine with a TE or a FB on his workout duds. Because as a QB he isn't even in Mike Vick's league when it comes to making reads and throwing with accuracy and timing.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:15 pm

Killian wrote:
mvscal wrote:At QB, you brainless fuckwit.
After the curb stomping I gave you in the other thread(s), you should just stop right now.

In your fucking dreams maybe. Let's see. Who do we believe? A witless internet ass hamster who doesn't know a jock from a surgical mask or...Jon Gruden who has spent decades training and developing NFL quarterbacks. Hmmm. Tough call, but I think I'm going to go with the Superbowl winning NFL coach here. Thanks for dropping by, douche.

You can waddle along now, tubby. You're obviously lost.

MgoBlue-LightSpecial · Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:11 pm

Because as a QB he isn't even in Mike Vick's league when it comes to making reads and throwing with accuracy and timing.

Are you talking to yourself now? What does that have to do the ability to withstand an NFL hit?

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:22 pm

mvscal wrote:
Killian wrote:
mvscal wrote:At QB, you brainless fuckwit.
After the curb stomping I gave you in the other thread(s), you should just stop right now.
In your fucking dreams maybe. Let's see. Who do we believe? A witless internet ass hamster who doesn't know a jock from a surgical mask or...Jon Gruden who has spent decades training and developing NFL quarterbacks. Hmmm. Tough call, but I think I'm going to go with the Superbowl winning NFL coach here. Thanks for dropping by, douche.

You can waddle along now, tubby. You're obviously lost.

You mean the guy that thought Chrissy Sims, Bruce Gradkowski, etc. were NFL QB's? What Gruden said still has nothing to do with Tebow's inexperience reading defenses, which you've never addressed. Do you want to bring up Drew Brees mechanics or Charlie Weis's buyout so I can hit the triple crown of busting your ass all in one thread? Didn't think so.

Bryan Billick has a Super Bowl ring, too. What's your fucking point?

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:17 pm

Every single QB entering the pros is "inexperienced at reading defenses." My point is that you are an idiot.

I offered my opinion on Tebow and Jon Gruden subsequently confirmed it after working him out. Van at least had the intelligence to recognize that and the integrity to sack up and admit it.

You, idiot that you are, still think you got over somehow. You really couldn't be more of a dumbfuck if you worked at it. I trust I have now made my point clearly enough for your limited understanding but, just in case...

You = Dumbfuck.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:19 pm

mvscal, there are levels of inexperience. A QB from USC or BYU who played in a pro-style multiple-reads offense has quite a leg up on someone who played QB in a spread offense with minimal reads requirements beyond "hit the primary receiver, otherwise dump it off to a back or simply tuck and run."

I still maintain that Tebow is starting from a severe deficit in trying to transition from the offense he ran at Florida to any offense he'll be asked to run in the NFL. His deficit will be greater than that of a Mark Sanchez or Matt Ryan, for instance.

It sure does look like he's working on correcting his physical deficiencies, though, and with his work ethic, yes, I now see hope for the guy. If he's reasonably bright - and I don't know whether he is - his work ethic should eventually allow him to grasp the far more important mental aspects required to be a successful QB in the NFL.

I don't think Dan Marino or Joe Montana were particularly brilliant people, so more than likely Tebow is at least bright enough. He'll put in the necessary homework, but it probably will take him longer to excel at that aspect of the game than it would for QBs who came from pro-style offenses.

BSmack · Post by **BSmack** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:33 pm

MgoBlue-LightSpecial wrote:
Because as a QB he isn't even in Mike Vick's league when it comes to making reads and throwing with accuracy and timing.
Are you talking to yourself now? What does that have to do the ability to withstand an NFL hit?

Making bad reads has plenty to do with his ability to withstand hits. As in he'll be forced to withstand a whole lot more of them.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:32 pm

Van wrote:mvscal, there are levels of inexperience. A QB from USC or BYU who played in a pro-style multiple-reads offense has quite a leg up on someone who played QB in a spread offense with minimal reads requirements beyond "hit the primary receiver, otherwise dump it off to a back or simply tuck and run."

You mean like Mark Sanchez was doing last year in New York? It sure was a good thing he had that experience in a pro-style offense. Coming from a pro-style offense isn't nearly the advantage you seem to think it is. "Hit the primary receiver, otherwise dump it off to a back or simply tuck and run" is what 99% of all rookie QBs are going to be doing anyway. Nobody walks into the NFL and immediately masters an NFL offense.

There's no reason a team can't simplify the playbook to accomodate a young QB. They do it all the time. The kid's work ethic determines how quickly he catches up to the pro game. There's no question about Tebow's athletic ability or his work ethic. That is the key to success on the next level much moreso than the type of offense he ran in college.

I agree that he would benefit from holding a clipboard for a couple years and, given his likely draft position, that should be doable. But if he happens to be pressed into service early than, yes, I think he could have as much success as any other rookie with the "hit the primary receiver, otherwise dump it off to a back or simply tuck and run" approach.

Don't overthink it. It's all football. Can the kid play or not?

Q, West Coast Style · Post by **Q, West Coast Style** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:02 am

Well we know the Cowboys aren't taking him. At least not in the third round.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:12 am

poptart wrote:I think Tebow has a good chance to succeed in the NFL.

He has a LOT of very positive attributes.

Yeah, we know. He's a fucking industrial grade Thumper.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:22 am

I don't care.[/crack corn]

indyfrisco · Post by **indyfrisco** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:14 pm

NCAA banning eyeblack messages primarily because of this douche.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:43 pm

mvscal wrote:Every single QB entering the pros is "inexperienced at reading defenses." My point is that you are an idiot.

I offered my opinion on Tebow and Jon Gruden subsequently confirmed it after working him out. Van at least had the intelligence to recognize that and the integrity to sack up and admit it.

You, idiot that you are, still think you got over somehow. You really couldn't be more of a dumbfuck if you worked at it. I trust I have now made my point clearly enough for your limited understanding but, just in case...

You = Dumbfuck.

As I pointed out, twat, you are basing your opinion on a guy who thought Chris Sims, Bruce Gradkowski and other wash outs were NFL calibre QB's. My opinion on why Tebow will fail has nothing to do with his mechanics. Yes, they will hurt him, but his real failure will be because he has never played QB in an offense that required him to take snaps under center, perform 3 and 5 step drops, perfom play action during these drops, or read a defense. If he does all of those things, I'll be in here to admit I was wrong.

But you using Gruden as your "See, I told you so!" moment is fucking laughable. The guy spent months refining his mechanics for his pro day, and they still didn't look good. We'll see how his mechanics hold up when he actually has to face some pressure in the NFL.

You're 0-3.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:53 pm

Gradkowski hasn't washed out yet. He might not be an elite NFL qb, but he's still an NFL qb.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:07 pm

Killian, I've got mixed feelings on it. On the one hand, his mechanics look pretty solid now, including his seven-step drops. Everything is a far cry better than what he showed during his pro day. His release is night and day shorter and quicker than it was when we last saw the guy.

Then again, that's merely his release. Who's to say that he can still throw with accuracy, force and rhythm using that new release? During the show I watched he was only doing drills. There were no outcomes to any of his passes. He wasn't under pressure and having to hit defended receivers in small spaces. Point being, it's not inconceivable that he won't be as effective a passer while trying to throw in a manner that's unnatural to him.

My other issue is a simple question: Has a QB from a spread offense in college ever gone on to be worth a shit in the NFL? mvscal dismisses the learning curve aspect of it by stating that yes, it's simply a learning curve, and Tebow will catch up due to his work ethic.

Maybe so, but look around the NFL. First off, Tebow is by no means the only guy entering the NFL with a solid work ethic. I'm quite sure that many other guys who worked their asses off to become better still failed. Moreover, who are the sucessful QBs, and who aren't?

Established successful QBs
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning (iffy)
Brett Favre
Phillip Rivers

Up and coming successful QBs
Aaron Rodgers
Tony Romo (iffy)
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez

Not one of those guys played in a Florida-style spread, where the option to tuck and run was basically the second option after the primary target was covered. No, nearly every one of them played in a more conventional offense where the QB was counted on to read more while carrying a whole lot larger burden as the trigger in the passing game.

Conversely, I can't think of any successful QBs in the NFL who came from a Florida-style spead offense where the QB's running was a featured component.

Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick would come closest, I suppose, and I've never been sold on McNabb while Vick just plain sucks.

On top of that, no QBs from gimmicky pop-gun spread offenses like Houston's, Taco Tech's or Hawaii's have done shit in the NFL.

This would lend credence to the notion that yeah, experience in running a pro-style offense matters a whole lot upon entering the NFL, while a lack of same has proven to be quite damning. Judging by recent history, there is no precedent for someone like Tebow to succeed as a QB in the NFL. None.

Am I forgetting someone?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:31 pm

Van wrote:Has a QB from a spread offense in college ever gone on to be worth a shit in the NFL?

I don't think I like the direction this conversation is heading.

Sin,
Alex Smith

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:33 pm

QB is such a hit or miss position, and it's the only non-special team position where there is only one player for that spot so the pressure to get it right is very high. I can't find the link to save my life (maybe it was said during a broadcast), but there was an NFL scout or coach that said that the spread offense is the worst thing to happen to football from a talent development stand point.

With the option, smaller teams who were at a talent disadvantage used it to try and compete with the big boys (Army, Navy, Air Force, etc.). Some of the bigger teams used it for awhile (Notre Dame, Nebraska) but they moved away from it because of the catch 22 it presents when recruiting. Kids want to go to programs and win, and they want to go to the NFL. The NFL doesn't take a lot of option QB's or skill position players from option schools. Now that the spread offense is so prevelant among the college ranks, it's getting harder and harder to evaluate QB's and offensive lineman. That's part of the reason why I don't think Sam Bradford should be a slam dunk at #1. Yeah, the kid looks like he has all the tools to be a good NFL QB, including a high level of accuracy, but he's played in a spread his whole life, similar to Alex Smith. Making presnap reads from the shotgun and from under center are completely different. Plus, at the speed in which the OU offense opperated, it didn't provide time for many defenses to disguise coverages and confuse Bradford.

I don't care how great someone's work ethic is, if you are starting from scratch it makes it much more difficult to learn something brand new, especially when you are up against guys who have a significant head start. And it's great that Tebow fixed his mechanics, but how often do baseball players and golfers revert to bad habits when shit starts to hit the fan? Unlearning is harder than learning.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:36 pm

Van wrote:On top of that, no QBs from gimmicky pop-gun spread offenses like Houston's, Taco Tech's or Hawaii's have done shit in the NFL.

Gee, and here I was, thinking I'd played in multiple Pro Bowls.

Sin,
Neil Lomax

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:37 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Van wrote:On top of that, no QBs from gimmicky pop-gun spread offenses like Houston's, Taco Tech's or Hawaii's have done shit in the NFL.

Am I forgetting someone?
Gee, and here I was, thinking I'd played in multiple Pro Bowls.

Sin,
Neil Lomax

Neil fucking Lomax, from a quarter century ago?? That's your exception?

Yeah, like I said...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:06 pm

Hey now...

Andre Ware was a fine...

EJECT!!!!

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:05 pm

Killian wrote:As I pointed out, twat, you are basing your opinion on a guy who thought Chris Sims, Bruce Gradkowski and other wash outs were NFL calibre QB's.

He's also the same guy who coached Brett Farve, transformed Rich Gannon from journeyman slappy into a league MVP and won a Superbowl with Brad Johnson. You, on the other hand, well who the fuck are you? What the fuck have YOU ever done?

So, yeah, I think the two former Superbowl winning head coaches who seem to think he's going to be decent NFL starter probably know just a little bit more about what it takes to succeed in the NFL than you do.

The guy spent months refining his mechanics for his pro day, and they still didn't look good.

Says who? Just talk pretty much straight out your ass, don't you?

"It's only been a couple of hours since Tebow wrapped up his Pro Day performance, but I've already had conversations with a couple of scouts who attended today's festivities in Gainesville. One NFC scout told me, 'I was blown away by the confidence he displayed in the new release and how effective he was delivering the ball. I was most impressed with his footwork and how quick he got rid of the ball; very impressive.' "

"The question was, could he be an NFL quarterback? Sounds like he's starting to answer some of those questions with a change in his delivery."

I talked to a few scouts and to them, the most impresssive thing they took away from Tebow's performance was his ability to take away a lot of coaching in a short period of time. They felt his footwork was much improved, and because of that, they think both his short and long passing was very good ... and better than expected.

One scout made the point that a lot of the negative stuff that's been said about Tebow is way overblown, and the things he needs to improve upon are secondary to the fact that he does everything else right to win football games. By all accounts that I've heard, Tebow had an impressive performance here today at The Swamp.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/live ... ida-031710

More [Mike] Mayock: "He looks like a completely different guy. He still gets into a little bit of trouble overthrowing or over-striding. Those are old habits, that's all. And he still has to replicate [the motion] with 11 angry men chasing him one day. But what he's done in six weeks with that delivery and his footwork is a testament to his coaches and the fact he's willing to work so hard."

After the session, all five head coaches -- Mike Tomlin, Tom Coughlin, John Fox, Eric Mangini and Raheem Morris -- greeted Tebow with hugs and words of encouragement.

"They were pleased with the improvements," Tebow said of the feedback. "I don't know what they're saying behind closed doors, but what they said to me was positive, and that's how I'll take it."

"It appears he's made some adjustments in a very short period of time," [Mike] Holmgren said. "I would say this: If you look hard enough at anybody, you can be real picky about stuff, but you better be careful about losing sight of the big picture and of the player he really is; the winner he is; the person he is. There is a lot of good about this young man."

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/17/tim- ... n-pro-day/

Of course the point isn't that he was picture perfect (he wasn't), but that he was able to make substantial progress changing his fundmentals in a mere six weeks. That's not easy and he had to work his ass off to do it. Just like he will work his ass off to learn his new offense.

You're 0-3.

Keep telling yourself that, tubby.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:14 pm

mvscal, your link there including the comments from all those coaches, yep, that's exactly what I took away from seeing Tebow's workout the other day.

A night and day difference, and over such a short period of time = extremely coachable.

mvscal · Post by **mvscal** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:56 pm

Yeah, I think it would be easy for a kid who has enjoyed the level of success that he has in college to be complacent about his game or even lazy. If that were the case, I would agree that he would be a bust at any round in the draft.

Bottom line is that he works too hard and has too much else going for him to fail. You look at the guys who succeed in the NFL and they're all grinders who work their asses off to improve themselves.

This look like a future first ballot hall of famer to you, killian? Think maybe a little hard work went into that transformation?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:00 am

Van wrote:saw a show yesterday about Jon Gruden working with Tebow on his crazy mechanics

Is this what you saw?

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/r ... raft100416

It's a pretty entertaining piece.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:52 am

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3645 ... her-gators

Try researching who says what, when you try to use it to back up your point. Also, google more than one article and read more than one line of a quote. For instance, Mike Holmgren wouldn't say he would be a good NFL QB.

And why the sudden interest in mens bodies? Calling me tubby and half naked pictures of Tom Brady? Never knew you swung that way. Now I know why you have shitty sports opinions.

Van · Post by **Van** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:23 am

pop, yeah, that was the show I saw. You gotta admit, Tebow's delivery there looks markedly different than it did during college or at that trainwreck of a Senior Bowl, or whatever it was.

You know what was the main thing I got out of that show? If I were a QB, I'd love to have Gruden as my coach. Hell, I'd love to have him as my coach, period.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:43 am

Yeah, it was painful for Raider fan when Gruden left, because he was such a likeable guy and he helped turn a floundering program around.
I kicked him as he went out the door, but I wish he and Al could have gotten things worked out so he would have remained a Raider.

On that clip, yeah, Tebow's delivery looks legit.
Of course that was a very controlled enviornment, but I'd be surprised if he didn't also have his delivery squared away before he is really called on to perform as an NFLer.

I just see him as a guy who really WANTS to do what it takes to succeed.

Whether he CAN succeed remains to be seen.

I like his chances.