To Beat Back Poverty, Pay the Poor

[smackaholic]

The English language kicks your ass on a daily basis.

i'd try to argue that, but, then i'd look like some of the tards here.

[Mikey]

The English language kicks your ass on a daily basis.

i'd try to argue that, but, then i'd look like some of the tards here.

Too late, fatso.

[Dinsdale]

I guess that's a state issue, as well -- although the fed could certainly enact laws forcing states to recognize legal marriages in other states.

Already in the Constitution.

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/cons ... icles.html

Uhhh, yeah... that's kind of why I added that... do try and keep up.

[Dinsdale]

If it were up to me, no person would receive any aid from the government whatsoever unless they: (1) regularly submitted to and passed rigorous drug screenings

And that bill just hit the Oregon Legislature yesterday.

And another one for unemployment bennies.

Because goodness knows, this state needs another layer of bureaucracy.

And people have already mentioned madatory drug testing for all parents with kids in public schools, since they are BY FAR the biggest recipients of public money... not a bad idea, since Oregon is near the top of the country (if not #1) in spending-per-student, which has garnered us the #46 ranking in quality of education... gotta love public unions.

[indyfrisco]

Why should the wealthy have to pay for the poor?

Exactly. Charity should be voluntary, not government mandated.

[Mace]

[If it were up to me, no person would receive any aid from the government whatsoever unless they: (1) regularly submitted to and passed rigorous drug screenings; (2) had no outstanding warrants; (3) were working toward a GED, if they did not have a high school diploma; (4) were seeking employment or job training; and, if they have children (5) make sure their children attend school.

For those who were unwilling to play by these rules, I would set up a system of camps. The camps would be for those who voluntarily wish to enter to receive minimal government benefits while getting themselves straightened out. In return for surrendering some of their personal liberty, they would be given housing, food and drug treatment/counseling whatever. But they could not go "beyond the wire" and receive government benefits until they were certified as complying with the requirements. The camps would be austere. No television. No cell coverage. No Internet. Nothing. They could leave at any time if they didn't want government benefits provided in the camp, with the proviso that they would not receive any government benefits on the outside.

So you would like the government to "steal" even more money from everyone to pay for this? Number one, drug testing is not cheap, and secondly, just how much would it cost to implement your "camps"? I realize your camps are "voluntary" and would expect most folks to tell the government to go fuck themselves. Sure, they wouldn't receive government benefits, but they'd end up on the streets doing what street people do to survive. Not a viable solution, imo.

And "no internet" in your camps? :roll: There goes the T1B.

[Mace]

not a bad idea, since Oregon is near the top of the country (if not #1) in spending-per-student, which has garnered us the #46 ranking in quality of education... gotta love public unions.

http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009 ... nding.aspx

According to this link, Oregon ranks 31st in spending per student and 28th in SAT scores in 2009. Iowa ranked 25th in spending and 1st in the SAT scores. There are a host of ways to rank quality of education, so you might find something out there that supports your "46th ranking" for quality of education or that you are among the top in spending.

Interesting is that all of the leaders in SAT scores are from the midwest. Not surprising, just interesting.

2009 Rankings of State SAT Scores

1 Iowa
2 Wisconsin
3 Minnesota
4 Missouri
5 Illinois
6 Michigan
7 South Dakota
8 Nebraska
9 North Dakota
10 Kansas

[trev]

So we want to drug test for every government benefit?

Anyone get a college loan? Home loan?

Oh never mind. Bottom line is if we do it for the poor, we should do it for the not poor as well.

In other words, we shouldn't do it at all. Legalize drugs, but that's another thread I guess.

No, just test for free welfare money that can be used to buy drugs. Not too complicated.

[Onions]

So we want to drug test for every government benefit?

Anyone get a college loan? Home loan?

Oh never mind. Bottom line is if we do it for the poor, we should do it for the not poor as well.

In other words, we shouldn't do it at all. Legalize drugs, but that's another thread I guess.

No, just test for free welfare money that can be used to buy drugs. Not too complicated.

if they want to spend the money on drugs instead of food, let them.

[Mace]

So we want to drug test for every government benefit?

Anyone get a college loan? Home loan?

Oh never mind. Bottom line is if we do it for the poor, we should do it for the not poor as well.

In other words, we shouldn't do it at all. Legalize drugs, but that's another thread I guess.

No, just test for free welfare money that can be used to buy drugs. Not too complicated.

And you'll spend far more money administering the drug tests than you could ever save in welfare expenditures. And to what end?

Do you think that everyone receiving an unemployment check is a drug user?

[Dinsdale]

http://blog.bestandworststates.com/2009 ... nding.aspx

According to this link, Oregon ranks 31st in spending per student and 28th in SAT scores in 2009.

First, Oregon was consistently in the top 2 (usually #1) within recent memory. I was basing it on what the fishwrap reports, which I believe come from the new Testing-Standards-Dealio (I believe that's the official name). Oregon was a joke -- but declaring themselves a sanctuary-state will do that.


And it's kind of been a point of huge contention here -- the teachers unions are in bed with the rest of the state government thieves, and they've played this nifty little game of "hide the expenses" to counter the public outrage at the cost (most if it unfunded) of the public employee benny/retirement packages. The ruse is a joke, everyone here knows what's up, but as far as any sort of federal rankings go, they're lying like hell to get the taxpayers of other states to pay their bennies, since Oregon taxpayers lost the ability years ago.

It's a huge lie -- if they total ALL of the education expenses, Oregon is very close to the top, if not #1. Just an accounting trick to fool the masses.

And it's almost reaching a point of a mini-revolution here... very divisive topic around these parts.

[Derron]

And it's kind of been a point of huge contention here -- the teachers unions are in bed with the rest of the state government thieves, and they've played this nifty little game of "hide the expenses" to counter the public outrage at the cost (most if it unfunded) of the public employee benny/retirement packages. The ruse is a joke, everyone here knows what's up, but as far as any sort of federal rankings go, they're lying like hell to get the taxpayers of other states to pay their bennies, since Oregon taxpayers lost the ability years ago.

It's a huge lie -- if they total ALL of the education expenses, Oregon is very close to the top, if not #1. Just an accounting trick to fool the masses.

And it's almost reaching a point of a mini-revolution here... very divisive topic around these parts.

That will happen when you have a state that is dominated by liberal voters and government tit sucking employees. All the public employee unions have to do is turn out their membership, plus their families / dependents, add in the unemployed liberals and you have the required 37% it takes to defeat any type of common sense voting.

Our local school district has to cut at least 7 million from the budget for 2011-2012. Now the state pension slush fund known as PERS ( Public Employees Retirement System) has to have an ADDITIONAL 2.2 million dollars from our district to fund its liabilities for the next years budget period. So we have to cut 9.2 million from a budget of 52 million. Since 90% of the budget is labor and benefits, it may stand to reason if you want to keep the lights on, the heat on and a few other things, that you are probably going to have to cut your labor a bit.

Of course all the unions and employees are lining up in lock step to protest the cutting of THEIR little fiefdom, and demanding that it cut from some place other than labor... And today we have the State Superintendent of Instruction writing a column about how great our education system is and we have to fund it better and all this shit..righhhttt.. fact is that class sizes are going up, building repairs and maintenance are stopping, but we are going to keep paying into these retirement funds and full family health care medical benefits, and the shit is going to come down this year on the schools and public funded agencies. This state is fucking broke. Our 20% ( the real rate) unemployment translates into no income taxes, and that is how they fund schools, property taxes collections are down, because people cannot pay them..only places STILL hiring are government agencies. Fuck them all...

Fuck the unions, fuck the school administrators..fuck the state legislature. Fuck them all. Until the full ride 6% of wages pension payments are stopped, and make the employees pay some of that, and make them pay 1/2 of these $ 1,800 per month per employee full ride medical programs, (they pay $ 50 a month for those programs now), you will see Oregon education continue to decline. Simple math says it cannot go on any more..maybe these "teachers" and their fucking unions should start running some numbers and see where it is really..."but it is for the kids..we have to do this for the kids"

[Mace]

Fuck the unions, fuck the school administrators..fuck the state legislature. Fuck them all. Until the full ride 6% of wages pension payments are stopped, and make the employees pay some of that, and make them pay 1/2 of these $ 1,800 per month per employee full ride medical programs, (they pay $ 50 a month for those programs now), you will see Oregon education continue to decline. Simple math says it cannot go on any more..maybe these "teachers" and their fucking unions should start running some numbers and see where it is really..."but it is for the kids..we have to do this for the kids"

Public employees in Oregon don't contribute to their pension plan? And their family insurance is $1800?

Public employees in Iowa contribute to their pension plans....always have....and they've raised the percent of contribution in the last year. Sounds like your school system should also find another insurance provider. Christ, that's double what our family plans cost here. What percentage of their salary do they receive after retirement? And what's the formula for determining when they can retire?

In Iowa, you can't receive your pension until age 55 and your age plus years of service have to add up to 88. To retire at age 55, you would have to have 33 years of service to receive full benefits. Also, in that case, you would receive 63% of the average of your 3 highest salaried years. The percent of your salary starts at 60% and they add one percent for every year over 30, up to 65%. I worked 34 years and receive 64% of my highest 3 years of service. I think they have, or will, change that to your highest 5 years in the near future, if they haven't already done so.

[Derron]

Public employees in Oregon don't contribute to their pension plan?

Not one thin fucking dime. 20 plus years ago, in one of the salary bargaining sessions, the unions got the employers to "pickup" the 6% retirement contribution in lieu of a salary increase for that period. Of course the employers tried to get that back and the unions told them to GFO. And it has stayed to this date. And they started getting increases back too, so a pretty sweet deal for them.

And their family insurance is $1800?

The highest plans are. I think they average between $ 1,500 and $ 1,800.

What percentage of their salary do they receive after retirement? And what's the formula for determining when they can retire?

Varies on percentage. Certain classes of administrators retiring at the right time got 105%. A few I know are getting 75% or better. Depends on when you go and how many years. 30 years at any age gets you at least 75%. Plus a health care kick back for 7 years, buit I think that sunsetted out a couple of years ago. I know one who got 50% after 15 years.

[Mace]

Public employees in Oregon don't contribute to their pension plan?

Not one thin fucking dime. 20 plus years ago, in one of the salary bargaining sessions, the unions got the employers to "pickup" the 6% retirement contribution in lieu of a salary increase for that period. Of course the employers tried to get that back and the unions told them to GFO. And it has stayed to this date. And they started getting increases back too, so a pretty sweet deal for them.

And their family insurance is $1800?

The highest plans are. I think they average between $ 1,500 and $ 1,800.

What percentage of their salary do they receive after retirement? And what's the formula for determining when they can retire?

Varies on percentage. Certain classes of administrators retiring at the right time got 105%. A few I know are getting 75% or better. Depends on when you go and how many years. 30 years at any age gets you at least 75%. Plus a health care kick back for 7 years, buit I think that sunsetted out a couple of years ago. I know one who got 50% after 15 years.

Wow. That pension plan was doomed from the very beginning. Has no one in Oregon ever heard of actuarial sciences?
As for health insurance, retiring state employees in Iowa are paid their hourly wage for all sick leave days not used and the money is placed in a pool to pay your health insurance until it runs out. My single health insurance cost under $400 a month and a family plan is under $1000. Hopefully, I'll have enough in the pool to get me to age 65, but that will depend on premium increases in the next few years.

[Goober McTuber]

And their family insurance is $1800?

The highest plans are. I think they average between $ 1,500 and $ 1,800.

No need to exagerate, Dorron.

For employee-only medical coverage, Oregon’s average monthly premium is $756 per state worker, with the government paying the entire amount, according to the conference’s data. That places Oregon behind only two other states: Alaska (it picks up the first $900 of monthly premiums) and Alabama (which pays the full $775-a-month premium for employee coverage). Oregon’s coverage for an employee and family is above average among state governments: It ranks 12th at a state-paid cost of $1,036 a month, with no cost to the employee.

http://special.registerguard.com/csp/cm ... /story.csp

I'm sure that if one had the time to do the research your retirement figures are probably also grossly exagerated. 6% of salary is not a huge amount to kick in for retirement.

[indyfrisco]

6% of salary is not a huge amount to kick in for retirement.

Tell that to the taxpayers who he says carry 100% of that burden.

[Goober McTuber]

6% of salary is not a huge amount to kick in for retirement.

Tell that to the taxpayers who he says carry 100% of that burden.

Of course the taxpayers kick in, they’re the employer. That’s not much different from what my employer kicks in but it’s a 401K so I kick in as well. The problem is with Dorron’s anecdotal estimates of what people are receiving. He needs to link up some facts before I’d take anything he says seriously.

[Dinsdale]

Has no one in Oregon ever heard of actuarial sciences?

Wouldn't that require some sort of teaching?

Kind of the fox guarding the henhouse, eh?

As for health insurance, retiring state employees in Iowa are paid their hourly wage for all sick leave days not used and the money is placed in a pool to pay your health insurance until it runs out.

That would be nice. In Oregon, you get the leftover sick days/vacation as a payout... which counts against your final pay... and Derron wasn't making it up -- Tier 1 whores get 105% (AFTER the sick pay is added, and you wouldn't believe the overtime they're allowed to rack up those last couple of years), WITH step increases... AND they get their health care paid.

My single health insurance cost under $400 a month and a family plan is under $1000.

That would be unheard of in Oregon. Then again, Iowa probably doesn't require all health plans to cover things like smoking cessation (less than 20% of the people smoke, but everyone should pay for the coverage, right?), and... remember what state we're talking about... plans must now cover sex change operations.

Yup, you read that right.

And Goobs, your research is faulty -- while it may be that a year ago, it was $756 for THE EMPLOYEE (they've passed a bunch of new insurance requirements since then, see above), not too many tit-suckers are single -- they get the whole family covered.


And no -- 6% isn't much too ask... and if anyone proposes such things in this state, they tend to die in "hiking accidents" and the like. The public employee folks ain't fucking around. And since it's almost a majority in the state that benefit from the now-ridiculously bloated state government in one way or another, "the people can vote themselves money." You add their voting base to the gullible fools who soak up everything "evil corporation," and BAM -- you've got over 50% that will agree to anything pro-big-government. We've taxed many of the mid-sized corps out of the state, and gotten the big ones (sup Intel and Nike, et al) to stay by giving them tax exemptions (so the "big evil corporations" aren't æffected by the corporate hikes anyway.


The public unions won't pay one dime for their bennies, and still expect huge increases at every renegotiation. They couldn't care less if it's sustainable, as long as they get their piece of the pie... which pretty well exemplifies "liberal" mentality. Spend everyone's money except your own.

What's sad, is we have a perfect working model of the tax-and-spend-and-tax economy immediately to our south, but didn't learn a damn thing.


BTW -- nice job "compassionate liberals" -- as of this morning, my close friend, a hardworking (was in an unfortunate business when the crash came), compassionate, charitable-even-in-down-times, volunteering-like-crazy mofo...

and your lust for other people's money just prompted the IRS to start the process of throwing his family of 4 out on the street, over a relatively small amount of money, after they refused to put him on a payment schedule.

Nice jobs, libs. Maybe the lefties/public employess will hook him up and help him get out of arrears, right? That's their style.

[Goober McTuber]

And Goobs, your research is faulty -- while it may be that a year ago, it was $756 for THE EMPLOYEE (they've passed a bunch of new insurance requirements since then, see above), not too many tit-suckers are single -- they get the whole family covered.

It's your reading comprehension that is faulty.

Oregon’s coverage for an employee and family is above average among state governments: It ranks 12th at a state-paid cost of $1,036 a month, with no cost to the employee.

[Dinsdale]

Of course the taxpayers kick in, they’re the employer. That’s not much different from what my employer kicks in but it’s a 401K so I kick in as well.

Time to shut up, Goobs.

How did your 401K do the last couple of years? Take a hit, maybe (although you older folks usually switch to the fixed annuities, for damned good reason).


Not only do they contribute, they get a GUARANTEED interest. Yup, when the fund managers go higher risk, or when the market is hotter, they get the money (no "slush fund," straight into their coffers) -- when the investments tank, they STILL get a guaranteed return (I think the last contract was 3% minimum, I'd have to check).

Well, it was virtually impossible to sustain a guaranteed 2-3% safely over the last couple of years, and the baby-boomer titsuckers started dropping like flies the last couple of years, so guess where that left us... I know you're smart enough to come up with the answer "a huge new unexpected bill, due now."


The funny part is, all the people moving here are the ones that allowed it, and continue voting for it, and they have now cut off the hand that feeds them -- over the last 2 years, they tell us more people moved out than moved in (lots and lots of business owners cruised when they started getting picked on)... so much for the cash cow -- the Golden Goose died.


While not quite the disaster area california is, we're pretty fucked.


But our fucking brilliant old new governor, on his first day of work, "found" an extra $2 million "laying around" the state energy department (not exactly sure why we need one), so he's going to use it to pay his live-in girlfriend to do studies to see how much electricity we could save by adding weatherproofing to schools.

Yup, you read that part right, too. (OK, I kinda added the part about his girlfriend doing the studies -- but the two of them have been caught with their hands in that cookie jar before, and his old cronies get ALL those jobs). But at least he claims that for $2 mil, it creates 20 jobs for about 3-4 months... yup, you read that part right, too -- Kitz must have learned math in the Oregon public school system.


Chicago/Illinois got nothing on this place for polis getting bought and paid for.

[Dinsdale]

It's your reading comprehension that is faulty.

IKYABWAI

Did you catch the part where those numbers are over a year old?

Statewide, thanks to government stupidity (did you catch the part about mandatory sex-change coverage?), I believe the number they came up with for the state average increase for 2010 was around 13%.

And not that it's pertinent to the above, but illegal aliens get 100% free health coverage -- pretty good idea, if you want to make your state a destination for illegals (they even get coverage for the gunshot wounds they get fighting it out over pot farms in the forest). It's a no-questions-asked deal... but white Oregonians can go fuck themselves -- they don't get any of the benefits, only pay for them.


This state has completely lost its fucking mind.

[Goober McTuber]

3% may have been tough over the past two years, but it would have been a pretty shitty return in the years before that. All I’m saying is you and Dorron need to link up some facts to back up the payouts you’re talking about.

And BTW, there’s a similar discussion going on here right now about the same issues regarding Wisconsin state employees. One thing that doesn’t get mentioned in the discussion is that civil service salary ranges are below those in the private sector for comparable positions.

But in the past the state workers conceded less pay for better benefits. Now they are also getting furloughed for 8 days a year to reduce expenses.

I see that Oregon is proposing 12 furlough days a year for the next two years which is supposedly a pay cut of 4.6 %. Nothing wrong with a discussion of all of the costs of government, just try to keep it honest, and somewhat removed from your petty jealousies.

[Goober McTuber]

It's your reading comprehension that is faulty.

IKYABWAI

Did you catch the part where those numbers are over a year old?

Then find something more current to back up your position. And something more than your standard everyday bullshit Dinsdale generalities and anecdotes. Sheesh.

[LTS TRN 2]

Hey here's an idea which will actually help our country: why don't we quadruple the amount of spending for public education? To pay for it we'll start by ending the futile and catastrophic wars which are bankrupting us eight different ways, and also repeal the Bush tax cuts for the top two percent, cancel NAFTA so as to repair our nation's unionized work force--allowing folks to actually make a decent living. And of course there's the revenues from the pay-per-view execution of the Wall St shysters, starting with the management of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan.

Point is, we can afford it and it's the right thing to do. Not just morally, but practically. India and China are investing heavily in public education and seeing strong positive results immediately.

New Delhi, Aug 15 (IANS) Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said Friday that the government has given special attention to the development of education, and made massive public investment in it, to ensure that every child has assess to it. “As someone who started his professional life as a teacher, I feel proud to say that our government has been giving special attention to the development of education in our country,” he said in his speech to mark India’s 62nd Independence Day.

He said the government had made massive increases in public investment in education at all levels - elementary, secondary education and higher education.

About 6,000 new high quality model schools, with at least one school in each block, had been established, he said.

Also, 373 new colleges were being opened in backward districts.

He said India was opening 30 new universities, eight IITs (Indian Institute of Technology), seven IIMs (Indian Institute of Management), 20 IIITs (Indian Institute of Information Technology), five Indian Institutes of Science, two Schools of Planning and Architecture, 10 NITs as well as 1,000 new polytechnics.

“I have called the 11th Five Year Plan our ‘National Education Plan’. We want every section of our society to get access to education. Every child belonging to a family of SC, ST, OBC and all minorities, every single child, boy or girl, must have access to modern education,” he said from the ramparts of the Red Fort.

And the drunk goose-stepping SS is blathering what? Some inane libertarian hackwash? With nothing whatever to back it up? Disgusting.

[Dinsdale]

One thing that doesn’t get mentioned in the discussion is that civil service salary ranges are below those in the private sector for comparable positions.

Get's discussed to death around here. The unions are masters of the theory "if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

I could link up 14 different articles with 14 different versions of public vs private compensation. The Liars always want to bring up "compare education level per job"... which falls so far flat on its face, its laughable.

A flagger/ditchdigger/possum-scraper in the private sector doesn't get as much in total compensation as the public equivalents get just in bennies... but they'll keep repeating their lie til they're blue in the face.


Know what a public job is worth?

The exact same as a private one -- whatever the employer is willing to offer. Not sure why this economic rule becomes void when non-productive members of society say otherwise.

And there's always the great government ploy -- when the People finally do put their foot down, the Rulers respond by cutting teachers, police, firefighters... you know, the people who actually do something. Then they declare they've been defeated by those horrible enemies of teachers and firefighters... then give the "department managers" (whatever they do) big raises with the extra dough.


Pretty fucking sick cycle.

[Dinsdale]

Then find something more current to back up your position. And something more than your standard everyday bullshit Dinsdale generalities and anecdotes. Sheesh.

Dude -- I'm not even trying to be insulting at this point, but...

you really don't understand. This became THE liberal place to be... and it just ran out. I really wasn't kidding when I said this state is just about on the brink of an internal war... I'd be surprised if Tuscon didn't get repeated on a much larger scale here. Got a bunch of politicians crossing their fingers and laughing as they take their oath.


You want links?

OK, pick a page -- any page.


http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/

[Goober McTuber]

One thing that doesn’t get mentioned in the discussion is that civil service salary ranges are below those in the private sector for comparable positions.

Get's discussed to death around here. The unions are masters of the theory "if you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

I could link up

Yeah, I won’t hold my breath.

A couple of things. One, you can’t balance your budget on the backs of your government employees. State AND local government employees are 8.2% of Oregon's workforce.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/25174.html

And secondly, you think you’re so fucking smart, if a state job is such a sweet gig, how come you don’t have one?

[Goober McTuber]

Then find something more current to back up your position. And something more than your standard everyday bullshit Dinsdale generalities and anecdotes. Sheesh.

Dude -- I'm not even trying to be insulting at this point, but...

you really don't understand. This became THE liberal place to be... and it just ran out. I really wasn't kidding when I said this state is just about on the brink of an internal war... I'd be surprised if Tuscon didn't get repeated on a much larger scale here. Got a bunch of politicians crossing their fingers and laughing as they take their oath.


You want links?

OK, pick a page -- any page.


http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/

So I ask for facts....and you offer up....more opinions? Wow.

[LTS TRN 2]

Dins, there's nothing on that link to suggest any of the social implosion that you directly assert.

And what do you mean when you so casually use the term liberal? Is that anyone who's not a paranoid anti-union libertarian? That is, are you aware that you don't make a damn bit of sense, even when you appear to earnestly intend to do so? That all of your knee-jerk reactionary spazzings are just tedious gas?

try dealing with the basic fact of India and China pumping hundreds of billions into their public education--and walking away from us--while gum-flappers like you and 88 call for less!!

Can you really look in the mirror and not wince? I doubt it.

[Goober McTuber]

Your wife is a slacker, 88. I don’t know any teachers that actually work only during school hours. They show up early, stay late, and grade homework at night.

[Derron]

A couple of things. One, you can’t balance your budget on the backs of your government employees. State AND local government employees are 8.2% of Oregon's workforce.

With government budgets at 85% or more being labor, just where the fuck would you suggest balancing them at ?..As for the 8.2% , you may be right I don't know and really don't care. They want more tax money from me ? Fuck them..be efficient and don't fuck the tax payers over every chance you get. Like more taxes and fees.

And secondly, you think you’re so fucking smart, if a state job is such a sweet gig, how come you don’t have one?

Because getting a government job in Oregon means you need to be connected..and well connected. Government types hire their own. You have to know somebody, you have to kiss major ass, and you have to be prepared to give up an independent thought process. Competence has nothing to do with it. It is simply who you know.

And spare me the bullshit on the "furlough" days. what a fuckin crock of shit. I have been told by multiple state employees, who just can't stop talking about it after a bunch of beers and shots, that they get x minutes of overtime x times per week all year to cover those "furlough" days. Nothing but government employee window dressing,no substance to it at all.

[Dinsdale]

you can’t balance your budget on the backs of your government employees.

:facepalm:

Why isn't the budget balanced again?

Guess what -- that's exactly how the budget is getting balanced.

[Mace]

"Grossly excessive?" Not at all. The government needs to offer a pension plan for employees to attract them to the jobs and I don't think that 60-65% of your annual salary is excessive. Don't forget that the employee also contributes to the pension fund every month during their employment (at least in Iowa). What percent would you suggest as a fair amount to pay out for a pension? My "lifetime health insurance" is called medicare and whatever supplemental insurance I buy out of my own pocket. I also received a check for a $400 dividend this month that comes from a surplus fund from the pension. It's not guaranteed and will eventually run out if the investment market doesn't improve but, for this year, I got $400.

I'm not going to apologize for receiving 64% of my salary in exchange for 34 years of my life and doing a job that gave me a comfortable, but not extravagent, lifestyle. A State paying 75-105% of your salary would be excessive to me.

So, 88, what do you see as a fair percentage for a public employee pension? I don't feel that I'm making out like a bandit.....hell, my pension barely pays the monthy bills, which is why I'm working as a substitute teacher and operating a lawncare business to supplement my income.

[smackaholic]

i think the way to go is 401K plans for everyone. If they are started early enough, they will pay a decent amount. Also, they do not lock you into a particular job. If you want a bit more of a monthly income, invest in an annuity which gives you a higher monthly payment at the risk of not receiving a damn thing if you keel over at a young age.

My biggest pet peave with public sector employees is the 3 highest year scam that dins mentioned. hourly workers play this like a stradavarius by piling on huge levels of OT during these years to end up with pensions that are in some cases more than their base 40 hour pay.

[smackaholic]

Your wife is a slacker, 88. I don’t know any teachers that actually work only during school hours. They show up early, stay late, and grade homework at night.

Puhleeze. You are fucking high. My wife works at home periodically. But she is given a liberal sprinkling of "in service" days in which to get things done. She has planning periods and all measure of other things. She does go in early and hangs around until the ripe hour of 4:00 most days. But you're smoking crack if you think her work schedule is comparable to anything in the private sector.

And you do realize that education is the default degree in the United States. If you suck at every other potential major in college, you can still get a degree in education. You should see some of the dumbasses my wife works with. It is no wonder why the education system in this country sucks ass.

but, but, but, they have masters degrees.

this artificial education requirement put into place by the unions to try to justify higher pay is bullshit.

up through at least the 60s, many teachers attended 2 year teachers colleges. and the product they turned out was light years ahead of what we get now. you don't learn to teach in grad school, you learn to teach in the fukking classroom by teaching.

[BSmack]

This state is fucking broke.

Not even close Derron. But you do a real fine job playing the aggrieved middle age white dude who can't understand why the world has "gone crazy."

[BSmack]

Your wife is a slacker, 88. I don’t know any teachers that actually work only during school hours. They show up early, stay late, and grade homework at night.

Puhleeze. You are fucking high. My wife works at home periodically. But she is given a liberal sprinkling of "in service" days in which to get things done. She has planning periods and all measure of other things. She does go in early and hangs around until the ripe hour of 4:00 most days. But you're smoking crack if you think her work schedule is comparable to anything in the private sector.

And you do realize that education is the default degree in the United States. If you suck at every other potential major in college, you can still get a degree in education. You should see some of the dumbasses my wife works with. It is no wonder why the education system in this country sucks ass.

That's not how it works in Vermont. Or in New York. I know teachers in both states. Every last one puts in extra time at home and every last one pays for extra teaching materials out of their own pocket. My sister in law still makes it a regular habit to spend at least 6 hours a weekend grading papers, writing up individual lesson plans and filling out all the bullshit NCLB paperwork that our last Administration deemed necessary. And she logs at least that many hours during the work week. All told, she never works less than 50 hours a week.

[Mace]

"Grossly excessive?" Not at all. The government needs to offer a pension plan for employees to attract them to the jobs and I don't think that 60-65% of your annual salary is excessive. Don't forget that the employee also contributes to the pension fund every month during their employment (at least in Iowa). What percent would you suggest as a fair amount to pay out for a pension? My "lifetime health insurance" is called medicare and whatever supplemental insurance I buy out of my own pocket. I also received a check for a $400 dividend this month that comes from a surplus fund from the pension. It's not guaranteed and will eventually run out if the investment market doesn't improve but, for this year, I got $400.

I'm not going to apologize for receiving 64% of my salary in exchange for 34 years of my life and doing a job that gave me a comfortable, but not extravagent, lifestyle. A State paying 75-105% of your salary would be excessive to me.

So, 88, what do you see as a fair percentage for a public employee pension? I don't feel that I'm making out like a bandit.....hell, my pension barely pays the monthy bills, which is why I'm working as a substitute teacher and operating a lawncare business to supplement my income.

The government doesn't need a pension system to attract employees to jobs that pay them higher wages than comparable jobs in the private sector. There should be no public pensions at all. The public sector should be the same as the private sector. On its own to save up for the future.

And what are these high paying jobs of which you speak? It certainly wasn't all that lucrative being a probation/parole officer....or a school teacher, for that matter.

And apparently Goobs is correct....your wife is a slacker. My wife is in school by 7am every morning and is never home before 5pm....then returns to school to take tickets at basketball games, work in a concession stand, or to a variety of meetings. She prepares for classes at home, grades papers at home, and does whatever else she needs to do that she can't complete in the one free prep period she and all of the other teachers get each day. Those "in-service" days at our local school consist of staff training, not free time for teachers to grade papers or do classroom work.

It sounds like Oregon's pension plan is fucked up but, in all honesty, Iowa's is in relatively good shape. Iowa public employees contribute monthly to the plan, as I said before, and it's matched by the State. All of the money is invested and an employee can withdraw all of the money that they have contributed, without interest, at any time before they reach retirement age. Maybe you make enough and can save enough to create your own retirement plan, but the majority of public employees I know don't make nearly enough to do that.

You don't think that public employees should have a pension. Fine. I'm just glad you're not in charge of anything.

Edit: 88, would you have been better off taking a job in the Public Defender's office or with Legal Aid so you could get the public pension? Would the benefits and pension have been a lucrative enough deal for you to give up a private practice?

[Dinsdale]

This state is fucking broke.

Not even close Derron.

You're right -- "broke" implies no money.

At present, we have a few billion in unfunded liabilities -- to public pensions.

We passed up mere "broke" a while back.


I would think most of you would be concerned, since Oregon is one of a few states sucking the fed dry.


But at least we elected a new governor -- wait, we elected a used governor. The last time he spent 8 years in Salem, the state budget increased by double-digits each biennium, a whopping 67% over 8 years. Much of that was because he gave the public unions (oddly enough, his biggest campaign contributors, since he was one of them) whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted it. And companies voted against it -- with moving trucks.