The Original Covenant

[poptart]

God created man in His own image, gave him dominion over His creation, and blessed him with all that he could need - Genesis 1:26-31.
He gave man a wonderful garden to live in, and then gave man the original covenant - Genesis 2:1-17.

Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The orignal covenant.
God said, "I've given you everything. Just believe my Word. In the day you disbelieve, you will surely die."


Genesis 3:1-6 - Adam disbelived, sinned, became separated from God, and became captive to satan.
The 'six states of the non-believer' came upon him.

(1) Idol worship ---> (2) mental trouble ---> (3) physical problems ---> (4) death ---> (5) judgement, hell ---> (6) spiritual problems passed directly to descendants


(1) Adam placed ambition to be like God, and attention to his wife, above God's Word - Genesis 3:1-6.
This was his idol - which is anything which captivates our imagination, interest, and focus, above God.

(2) He went into mental difficulty - stressed out and trying to cover his nakedness, and even trying to hide from God - Genesis 3:7-8.

(3) Physical problems would come to Adam. He would now sweat and work just to eat from a very ground which has had a curse come upon it. Thorns and thistles will it produce - Genesis 3:17-19.

(4) He would die a physical death - Genesis 3:19.

(5) Judgement and Hell? God, in His grace and mercy, shed blood and covered Adam and Eve - Genesis 3:21.

(6) Nevertheless, damage was done. The spiritual captivity to satan was passed on to his descendants - and Cain rose up to kill his own brother - Genesis 4:1-8.


Such are the six states which came upon all of us.
And if you look, you can see them in others - and yourself.

God also immediately promised the Christ, who would come to destroy the work of satan, and restore all who believe - Genesis 3:15.

[Felix]

Genesis 2:16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The orignal covenant.
God said, "I've given you everything. Just believe my Word. In the day you disbelieve, you will surely die."


Genesis 3:1-6 - Adam disbelived, sinned, became separated from God, and became captive to satan.

i thought this month was "genesis is only an allegory" month

it must have been tough for "god", knowing how the story would play out before it was ever set in motion.....

[poptart]

Basically.

[Felix]

Makes my head hurt.

god knew it would make your head hurt

that's why he helped science develop


located at your nearest walgreens

[BSmack]

Basically.

Original Sin is the stupidest idea ever.

[poptart]

Takin' over for Sam, are you?

[BSmack]

Takin' over for Sam, are you?

Just saying that the idea that a child is inherently sinful because some post stone age douche let his wife talk him into eating some fruit is fucking stupid.

[poptart]

I understand balking at the concept because as I've said before, I was once a non-believer and didn't see the truth in such things, either.

When we look at parents and children, we easily see that traits (physical, personality, character) are passed down.

We all know about how a 37 year old woman wakes up one day, looks in the mirror, at her life, her self, and realizes she has become what she said she would never become.

Her MOTHER.


There is a spiritual world beyond our physical senses.
This is what I've become aware of since believing in Christ.
And the Bible is centered on the spiritual world.

As children inherit characteristics of their parents, spiritual death passed down from Adam.

Romans 8:8,9
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

To be direct, you are in the flesh and spiritual things are not seen by you.

I've offered before that the way for you to see if I am right about a spiritual world beyond what you sense physically is to soften your heart, ask if maybe it's really true, and say you want to receive Jesus Christ.

At that point, the Spirit of God dwells in you and a whole new spiritual realm is tasted.

[mvscal]

Basically.

Original Sin is the stupidest idea ever.

Actually it's brilliant. Guilt is a very powerful means of behavioral control.

[Felix]

Guilt is a very powerful means of behavioral control.

don't forget me

/s/
FEAR

[Python]

Guilt is a very powerful means of behavioral control.

Just curious, but why do you behave the way you do? Why don't you go around murdering people, breaking other laws, etc? I assume it's because of common sense and a set or morals you have picked up during your life. It's the same for Christians. We don't act a certain way out of guilt, but rather out of common sense and morals. It's no different.

[poptart]

You're right, Python.


Guilt and fear have been used by religion, Christianity included, but those using it have a strange, fundamental, and unfortunate misunderstanding of what the Gospel is.

The Gospel is anything but religion.

Religion is something made by man in attempt to meet God.
The Gospel was given by God and asks for nothing more than simple belief or acknowledgement.


Man is not a being who can live apart from the Creator.
When the separation occurred, God immediately gave the promise of the Gospel - Genesis 3:15, and then told Adam what had happened to him now that this separation has occurred - Genesis 3:16-21.

God didn't give guilt or fear.
He gave a simple explanation of the current reality, and the answer - Genesis 3:15, Genesis 3:21.

Likewise if we go back to the very beginning of Christianity - Mark's upper room, there is no fear or guilt - just overwhelming joy and thankfulness.

But man perverts everything, Christianity included, and as 'religion' predictably took over Christianity, the Christian Church became largely like the Pharisess - spreading legalism, fear, guilt, etc.

[Felix]

The Gospel was given by God and asks for nothing more than simple belief or acknowledgement.

and if you don't believe, what happens?

[poptart]

If you don't believe, you are following satan rather than God, and you remain in the state of Genesis 3:16-20.

[Python]

and if you don't believe, what happens?

Your act is getting old too. You know the answer. And don't give me that, "No. I really don't. I want you to tell me." crap either.

[Felix]

Your act is getting old too.

that's why they invented the scroll wheel..if you don't like what I have to say, then I suggest you simply pass it by....look, this is not a forum for syncophants to simply shout praise the lord, it's a forum for discussion...that's what I'm doing-discussing

You know the answer.

sure I do....nothing happens

but I actually wanted some christer to answer the question according to the beliefs they hold, then explain to me how that's not playing on fear or guilt....

you christians are a sensitive lot but I guess that's what comes from being persecuted all those centuries ago

[Python]

you christians are a sensitive lot

No, we just don't like idiots, much like the rest of the population. And you appear to be the one getting all worked up about a simple post by me, a brain dead Christian.

[poptart]

It's really fascinating that satan tries to do a 180 with every truth of God.

Fear and guilt?
It's what immediately came to Adam when he became separated from God.

Genesis 3:7-8
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Fear - trying to hide from God.
Guilt - trying to cover up their nakedness

Fear and guilt is what satan brings to people.

What God gives is our answer.


Genesis 3:21
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[poptart]

I don't recommend Christians approach people with the kind of dialogue that lady used with you, Sam.

Understand, Felix asked me the question.
The answer I gave him is Biblically accurate - and was actually put in a more mild way than it might have been.

I could have said, "You're going to hell, Felix," because so long as he follows satan, he ultimately will follow satan right to the place that God has prepared for satan, which is hell.


Btw, if you're interested in the Bible at all, look at Genesis 3:16-20 and you can see the 'condition' it tells us people remain in if they are separated from God.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv ... &byte=1477

[Felix]

No, we just don't like idiots

so your idea of reasoned discourse is to call me names?
how "christian" of you

[Python]

how "christian" of you

Extremely unoriginal. That's always the go-to phrase when someone thinks a Christian isn't being nice enough. Obviously you don't understand what being a Christian means. And I stand by my original statement. You're an idiot.

[Felix]

You're an idiot.

and your a self pious, unthinking moron who thinks that being overseen by an all knowing, all seeing celestial dictator is just okeedokey...

is it any wonder I have such disdain for braindead fucktards like you?

[poptart]

Fitting in with the theme of satan doing a 180 with truths of God, we see this kind of comment often directed at Christians.

your a self pious...

The Christian, Python in this case, openly admits his need for a Savior, and that he has no righteousness of his own.
He has humbled himself.

Wouldn't it be "self pious" to say that you sare just fine by your... self?


Just puttin' it out there for consideration.

[poptart]

Among the most unfortunate or very sad things (from my perspective) is that, despite best wishes to present the important core of the Gospel, it is taken wrong, not heard, or simply scrolled over.

Perhaps Christians (and myself) are to blame for having SO often presented the Gospel to people in legalistic terms.
And people being presented the Gospel already have a clear concept formulated in their mind of what it is - so they often reject it.


Similar to what Sam said, people think this:

Heaven is a reward for those doing good and/or worshipping God
Hell is a punishment for those not doing good and/or not worshipping God


But I would tell you that Heaven and Hell are not rewards or punishments.
They are just natural destinations.

If I live in Pennsylvania and I get in my car and head west without stopping or changing course ---> my destination will be California.

If a person is following satan (as all people, imo, are from Genesis 3), and they follow him 'til the end ---> their rightful destination will be to go exactly where he goes, which is hell.

It is a natural and rightful destination.

And one should understand that salvation is not a future event... when we go to heaven.
Salvation is something that happens RIGHT NOW.


I would also say that this is a VERY high stakes game.
The HIGHEST stakes.

Every person who hears about Jesus Christ makes a determination about Him.

Was he Lord?
Lunatic?
Liar?

You stake your life (and eternal life, if it exists) on what you determine about Him.


I've posted before about the 12 apostles, who also staked their lives on Him.

It is amazing to me that people have either scrolled this information, disregarded it, brushed it away somehow... or did whatever they did with it, but what happened with the apostles is VERY compelling.

They all, individually and not as a group, willingly went to the MOST horrific tortures and deaths because of their insistance that this man, Jesus, is the Christ.

But the kicker is the fact that if Jesus was a fraud and did not rise from the dead as the Christ, they KNEW that He didn't... and still went to those deaths.

Who suffers torture and death for what they know to be a lie?

Does anyone?

Do 12 people, all individually, suffer torture and death because they want to perpetuate the same lie?

Maybe one rogue knucklehead would do such a preposterous thing, but ALL 12 OF THEM?


Maybe they went to those deaths simply because they knew what the truth is.

[Goober McTuber]

If I live in Pennsylvania and I get in my car and head west without stopping or changing course ---> my destination will be California.

If a person is following satan (as all people, imo, are from Genesis 3), and they follow him 'til the end ---> their rightful destination will be to go exactly where he goes, which is hell.

Sounds like you wind up in the same place either way.

[poptart]

haha

Solid point, Goobs.

[Felix]

You stake your life (and eternal life, if it exists) on what you determine about Him.

and you say your beliefs aren't based on fear?

you and your ilk should truly be ashamed of yourselves....

[poptart]

If you tell your child to get up and stop playing in the street, you're not telling him that to try to scare him.

You're telling him for his own safety.


I'm convinced that what I am telling you is the truth - and it is based on love for you.