Any of you donkeys ever...

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:36 pm

remodeled a house?

The wife and are about to close on a house in Alamo Heights. It is a small city surrounded entirely by the city of San Antonio.

The house was built in 1941 and is currently 1521 sq/ft with an attached one car garage that is too small for even a smart car. Not that we own one of those death traps. The garage will be converted to a new bedroom/study with a bathroom and a laundry room. A new master suite will be added onto the back of the house. The post renovation square feet will be 2297.

We will gut the kitchen, current master bed/bath, second bedroom and bath, and small powder room. All will be completely redone. Hard wood floors will be restored throughout the house and added in the new areas. Living and dining will remain unchanged with only the wood floors restored. Exterior wood facade will be repaired in a few areas and the paint touched up.

My question to those that have done a renovation is did you do a cost plus contract or a fixed price contract with the builder? I understand the benefits of both.

Our contractor has given us the option of either.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:01 pm

Yeah, we discussed the quality of materials and I understand your concern. However, I am thinking we can add to the contract the type of materials to be used. The big items like the granite, cabinets, tile, paints, wood floor, would all be defined in the contract.

If we were to go with a cost plus type contract, how do we know if they are working to their full potential? Especially when there will be times we are not at the site for 3 days at a time.

Wolfman · Post by **Wolfman** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:05 pm

MrsO and I did the "This Olde House" thing back in CNY. Bought a two story wood frame house, balloon construction with no insulation. Ripped out walls put in fiberglass insualtion, new walls, ceilings, and floors. Rewired the place. Put in ceramic tile floor in the kitchen and 1/2 bath. New doors inside and front and back doors. Hired a crew to put in all new high-E windows, and got a guy to build me a new front porch. When I sold it after we moved here, the realtor had it advertised as a "Dream House". This was it when we left in 2001.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:16 pm

Definitely hire a licensed contractor, whatever you do...

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 pm

Pretty damn sure I could make that mess on my own.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:06 pm

So wait -- you guys think hiring a contractor is "remodeling a house"?

Funny stuff.

I think you meant to say "we're having our house remodeled."

If you find a trustworthy contractor, T&M ain't a bad way to go.

And yes, I've remodeled a house... never had anyone do it for me, though.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:21 pm

I can change the oil in my SUV, but it doesn't mean I won't pay someone else to do it. Same with cooking a meal.

I also did a ton of upgrades to my house in Sugar Land. That was remodeling just as writing the check to the subs will be.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:27 pm

And if I change my oil, I "changed my oil."

If I go to Jiffy Lube, i "had my oil changed."

Did I tell you about the time I flew a 737 to Phoenix? I paid the airline, so I must have flown the plane.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm

Dinsdale wrote:So wait -- you guys think hiring a contractor is "remodeling a house"?

Funny stuff.

I think you meant to say "we're having our house remodeled."

If you find a trustworthy contractor, T&M ain't a bad way to go.

And yes, I've remodeled a house... never had anyone do it for me, though.

Rack.

People that say "I built a house" when they paid someone to build a house, annoy me. It's right up their with saying "we" won something, when the team they follow does it.

As for what you are doing, lefty, may I ask why?

It seems to me that in distressed housing market, it makes more sense to find the house you want and just buy it. I realize that teeehas is doing better than other places, so distressed market, may not fit. You must be stealing the place.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:33 pm

smackaholic wrote:People that say "I built a house" when they paid someone to build a house, annoy me. It's right up their with saying "we" won something, when the team they follow does it.

Doesn't get any more "we" than that.

I disagree on that one -- Ill say "we" for two reasons, one of them well documented in BTPCFB:

- First, when my team wins, I, along with hundreds of thousands/millions of others, paid the team's bills.

- Second, and much more importantly, it annoys the fuck out of Toejam.

But, if you want to share this commonality with Toey, you knock yourself out. Maybe you can take a cattle prod to your kiss to get them around the bases faster while you're at it.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:35 pm

Dinsdale wrote: First, when my team wins, I, along with hundreds of thousands/millions of others, paid the team's bills.

By this logic, you should not have a problem with left "remodeling" a house, as he is paying the bill.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:42 pm

We are doing this because it is in the area we want to live. We could buy a house that is fully renovated and updated but then we can't get it exactly the way we want it. By doing it this way we gain the additional equity vs paying someone else for it.

The housing market in Texas didn't correct, because there wasn't anything to correct. Of course there have been some foreclosures but that isn't because the houses were overpriced. There isn't a distressed housing market here. We have continued to see steady growth in home prices for the last decade.

We are buying the house at market price. We will spend about $100K on the renovation. When we are completed the appraised value will be about $90K to $105K above what we are into the house for. Why wouldn't we do this?

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:45 pm

As a former player and now as a member of the front office of a team, I have no problem with fans saying we when their team wins. As Dins said, the fans pay the bills. They are the reason we are able to play kids games and make a living doing it. Without them sports would be like girls HS softball.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:10 pm

Cost plus...? Hmmm... who determines the contractors actually cost of direct labor costs and overhead to be applied to his job ? The contractor ? Gotcha..I am sure he is going to tell you his true costs, and even if he did have "paper work" to back it all up, it would probably be cooked anyway. It is a good way to add profit on the job, and say the hell with good project management, cause if they fuck up, they can cover it at your expense. Same with materials, unless carefully specified, you could end up with bottom materials and still pay a "cost plus" margin. What is the margin to be added to the cost ? There is no motivation what so ever for the contractor to be expedient in his work either.

Cost plus works great for a contractor, in some cases, but it has been proven time and again that cost plus seldom works because of the difficulty in determine a true "cost". I can make a spreadsheet say just about anything, and if a contractor has a good handle on his costs, which about 80% don't, he can just pull stuff out of his ass and slap a margin on it. And a contractor who offers you either option, does not have a consistent business model that uses the same project management process on every job. You can not run it both ways and make things come out consistently. You might be able to achieve a lower cost, but you are going to have to be on the thing every day to make that happen.

Never did a cost plus job in my career. We always did fixed price with materials careful specified and used. Project managed the hell out of the job..everything spelled out and managed on a daily basis. If the client wanted anything outside or different than what the contract said, we wrote and got a signed change order for the changes. None of this showing our costs to any body..none of their fucking business what my costs are. It adds to the paper work in the contract, but small price to pay when things go sideways on the job..and on a project of that size, something will go fuckball at some time.

Most construction work is cost based in nature. I had an excellent handle on our costs on a per hour basis , and all jobs went into a spread sheet cost based to cover materials, labor and overhead. When you arrive at that number you now have to determine how much profit to put on the job. That is determined by what you want for ROI, what you need to run the business next year, the risk on the job and some other factors. I usually went for about 25% net on top of costs. If it was a BOLI or DB job, I stood on it at least 35% to 40% net profit. You always have this thing called "project creep", where you can be assured you either fucked up in estimating, or somebody fucked up and need something to cover it, and that amounts to 5%. Were all self financed so we had cash carry over needs all the time. I got down payments on some jobs from private customers and got progress payments every Thursday based upon percentage of completion. And made sure we did a good job of managing the AR process.

Interview some good contractor and find one with references and check them. You might be surprised what you find out. Fucking up a job or your clients is a real quick way to get a bad rap that will follow you.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:00 pm

Left Seater wrote:Yeah, we discussed the quality of materials and I understand your concern. However, I am thinking we can add to the contract the type of materials to be used. The big items like the granite, cabinets, tile, paints, wood floor, would all be defined in the contract.

If we were to go with a cost plus type contract, how do we know if they are working to their full potential? Especially when there will be times we are not at the site for 3 days at a time.

Good call on the specifications.. And for working to their full potential, assume when you blow town for 3 days, they won't. But assume they WILL bill those hours to you. Start date and finish date. A good contractor can tell you to the day when the job is going to be completed, and if they are good project managers, will be bale to update that every day. It is called Excel spreadsheets, which a lot of contractors are not familiar with. :cry:

If I am having a major remodel done, weekends when they are not working is the only time I would be leaving.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:11 pm

smackaholic wrote:
Dinsdale wrote: First, when my team wins, I, along with hundreds of thousands/millions of others, paid the team's bills.
By this logic, you should not have a problem with left "remodeling" a house, as he is paying the bill.

And by the same logic, if you picked up a hooker you might say, “I sucked a cock”. Have fun with that.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:27 pm

Awwww, if you'd used correct punctuation, I might have spared you.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:29 pm

Dinsdale wrote:Awwww, if you'd used correct punctuation, I might have spared you.

It is correct punctuation where I went to school. Not surprised you'd have to reach that far to try and get over.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:46 pm

Goober McTuber wrote:
It is correct punctuation where I went to school.

But you're in the United States now.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:13 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Goober McTuber wrote:
It is correct punctuation where I went to school.
But you're in the United States now.

So?

But as long as it's OK to take words completely out of context and attribute them to the writer, I should be able to string something together like

Dinsdale wrote:I enjoy having sex with small boys and farm animals. That's just how I roll.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:14 pm

Got a list from the bank of their "approved" contractors. We could have used someone else had we wanted but it would have increased the time to close due to the bank having to get a crap ton of paperwork.

We interviewed three contractors and had at least 5 references on all. Two of the guys have lived and worked in the same area of this job for 15 years plus. We followed up with those two's references and when our realtor said she had worked with one of the guys that was the final piece to make the decision. I am confident that we would have been fine with either of the two. Material type and quality will be included in either contract. I hadn't thought about taking it to the level of the type of outlet or wall switch, but maybe we should.

The bank would prefer a Fixed price deal, but left it open. Both contractors told us their fixed price would likely be slightly higher than their cost plus, which I understand. But since both guys were within $2500 on each type of contract they had to be working from a similar place.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:38 pm

The period goes inside the quotation mark.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:40 pm

Not if you were taught the King's English.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:55 pm

Left Seater wrote:Got a list from the bank of their "approved" contractors. We could have used someone else had we wanted but it would have increased the time to close due to the bank having to get a crap ton of paperwork.

We interviewed three contractors and had at least 5 references on all. Two of the guys have lived and worked in the same area of this job for 15 years plus. We followed up with those two's references and when our realtor said she had worked with one of the guys that was the final piece to make the decision. I am confident that we would have been fine with either of the two. Material type and quality will be included in either contract. I hadn't thought about taking it to the level of the type of outlet or wall switch, but maybe we should.

The bank would prefer a Fixed price deal, but left it open. Both contractors told us their fixed price would likely be slightly higher than their cost plus, which I understand. But since both guys were within $2500 on each type of contract they had to be working from a similar place.

Sounds like you are good to go. Nice due diligence. Good research on the contractors, good thing the bank as such a list. Bankers out here too fucking stupid to do that.

You should be able to specify the materials. Since both were within $ 2500 on a 100k build..they have their numbers down pretty good. Probably took a lower mark up on the materials to come up with that price.

trev · Post by **trev** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Goobs has sucked a cock and the rest of you have had a cock sucked. ?? Is that what we've learned from this thread?

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:52 pm

trev is apparently feelin' good and frisky today!

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:56 pm

Goober McTuber wrote:Not if you were taught the King's English.

And in the Queen's English (although you might be old enough to have learned the King's English), you STILL punctuated it wrong.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:56 pm

Van wrote:trev is apparently feelin' good and frisky today!

Line up !

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:13 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Goober McTuber wrote:Not if you were taught the King's English.

And in the Queen's English (although you might be old enough to have learned the King's English), you STILL punctuated it wrong.

No, I didn't. And it was referred to as the King's English in the 50's and 60's. But for you to then take a statement that was inferred to be from suckaholic and suggest it was mine is just so-o-o-o KC. Nice to see you stepping up your game.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:47 am

Goober McTuber wrote:
No, I didn't.

If you had any idea what you were talking about, you'd have ejected already.

Meaning... yes, you very much did.

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:12 am

I actually think goobs is right on this one. You do realize that pertty much is the kiss of death, goobs.

It would make sense to have the period in the quotes, if the quote is a sentence, by itself. If the quote is part of a sentence the period would fall outside the quote.

But, then we are talking English here and what makes sense is often not "correct". Or, is it "correct."

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:44 am

smackaholic wrote:But, then we are talking English here and what makes sense is often not "correct". Or, is it "correct."

It's neither, asshat. Putting that word in quotation marks makes it ironic and that's not what you are going for. Not to mention, you'd probably want to use a question mark when asking a question.

Mace · Post by **Mace** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:46 am

smackaholic wrote:I actually think goobs is right on this one. You do realize that pertty much is the kiss of death, goobs.

It would make sense to have the period in the quotes, if the quote is a sentence, by itself. If the quote is part of a sentence the period would fall outside the quote.

But, then we are talking English here and what makes sense is often not "correct". Or, is it "correct."

Yep, you're right, smackie. Dins has railed on me for the same thing but I consider the source and move on.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:50 am

I've gone through this once before with Dinsy. I know a lot of posters here like to re-hash the same argument over and over again (abortion, climate change, etc.), but once is usually enough for me. If I have a spare minute or three, I'll go find the links I found the last time that support English grammar rules.

ucantdoitdoggieSTyle2 · Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:51 am

Mace wrote:Yep, you're right, smackie.

Nigga, please. Smackaholic knows absolutely nothing about landscaping and even less about spelling, punctuation, and grammar.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:52 am

One more time, for those who couldn't pass a grade school English class:

In American English, periods and commas ALWAYS go inside the quotation marks. Not when you feel like it, not where it seems appropriate -- ALWAYS.

In English (the kind they write in England), periods and commas go where appropriate.

And Goobs still hasn't figured out why he screwed that up. But he certainly wasn't writing either of the previously mentioned versions of English.

Trivia sidenote: of all people on Earth who speak English as their native language, over half of them live in the USA.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:53 am

Goober McTuber wrote:If I have a spare minute or three, I'll go find the links I found the last time that support English grammar rules.

Maybe you'll figure out your flagrant error.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:55 am

Dinsdale wrote:In English (the kind they write in England), periods and commas go where appropriate.

Well, then the period would then undoubtedly show up between your legs.

Shlomart Ben Yisrael · Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:58 am

Why do Americans insist on wiping their cocks on the drapes of what is truly England's greatest gift to the world?

Why?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:08 am

Goober McTuber wrote:I know a lot of posters here like to re-hash the same argument over and over again (abortion, climate change, etc.)

Abortion and climate change are debatable subjects.

Grammatical rules are not.

Nothing to argue about -- I'm right, you're wrong... not up for debate.