La Raz-ing Arizona

[Truman]

Governor Brewer: "What they (the Federal Government) said to Arizona is 'drop dead, Arizona, drop dead and go away. We're going to ignore you.'"



It has been widely reported that the Arizona Immigration Law was written to mirror federal statute already on the books. Well, that wasn’t quite true… In addition, the state criminalized illegals looking for work as well as those looking to hire them, and allowed its citizens to sue any official or agency that dragged its feet enforcing the federal law.

The Government apparently convinced a majority of the Supremes that the power to “establish a uniform rule of naturalization” lies solely with Congress (Article 1, Section 8 ), and is backed by the federal preemption doctrine, which is based on the Constitution’s Article VI, clause 2. Known as the supremacy clause, it says that federal law shall bind "judges in every state" even if state law contradicts it.

The Administration didn’t appear to be as persuasive with its arguments, however, on the constitutionality of the “show me your papers” provision included in the Arizona law. Essentially, Section 2(B) allows local police to check the immigration status of people they stop in the normal course of their duties, and the Supremes decided it was a bit too early to definitively rule on the constitutionality of this provision.

This hesitancy to rule decisively here is a bit ponderous, as immigrants are already required under both state and federal laws to carry their alien registration documents or other applicable records with them at all times.

In reaction to this ruling, the Obama administration has made it clear that they will no longer support immigration inquiries made by the state’s law enforcement agencies. Now who’s violating the Constitution? Whatever happened to that whole “preserve, defend and uphold the Constitution” oath-thingie?

Here’s my question: If the Fed refuses to defend Arizona’s southern border, what recourse does the state have other than to defend it themselves? Secede?

Both actions are in direct violation of Federal law. But does a state not retain the right to defend itself from external – and perhaps even internal - threats to its sovereignty?

[mvscal]

Here’s my question: If the Fed refuses to defend Arizona’s southern border, what recourse does the state have other than to defend it themselves? Secede?

Deport the illegals themselves. I'm sure Sheriff Joe can come up with a few cost effective measures to make it happen.

[Truman]

I think Justice Scalia would agree with you.

The court opinion’s looming specter of inutterable horror [if a portion of the statute were upheld] seems to me not so horrible and even less looming. But there has come to pass, and is with us today, the specter that Arizona and the states that support it predicted: A federal government that does not want to enforce the immigration laws as written, and leaves the states’ borders unprotected against immigrants whom those laws would exclude. So the issue is a stark one. Are the sovereign States at the mercy of the Federal Executive’s refusal to enforce the Nation’s immigration laws?

A good way of answering that question is to ask: Would the States conceivably have entered into the Union if the Constitution itself contained the Court’s holding? Today’sjudgment surely fails that test. At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, the delegates contended with “the jealousy of the states with regard to their sovereignty.” Through ratification of the fundamental charter that the Convention produced, the States ceded much of their sovereignty to the Federal Government. But much of it remained jealously guarded—as reflected in the innumerable proposals that never left Independence Hall. Now, imagine a provision—perhaps inserted right after Art. I, §8, cl. 4, the Naturalization Clause—which included among the enumerated powers of Congress “To establish Limitations upon Immigration that will be exclusive and that will be enforced only to the extent the President deems appropriate.” The delegates to the Grand Convention would have rushed to the exits.

Arizona has moved to protect its sovereignty—not incontradiction of federal law, but in complete compliance with it. The laws under challenge here do not extend or revise federal immigration restrictions, but merely enforce those restrictions more effectively. If securing its territory in this fashion is not within the power of Arizona, we should cease referring to it as a sovereign State. I dissent.

[Bizzarofelice]

you guys sure care a lot

[MadRussian]

Brand them and catapult the fucks back over the rio grande

[Truman]

you guys sure care a lot

Naw, Bace, just chewin’ the fat and discussin’ the weather…

Finally dropped below 80% humidity and I mowed for the first time in 10 days. Hot on your end of the state too?

On the bright side, it’s been perfect tomato weather, and it looks like we’ll have a mess by the 4th...

Oh, did you have anything of value to add to this thread, or are you simply being Bace?

And people openly wonder how Obama ever got elected…

[Bizzarofelice]

well its a dirty job but someone's got to do it.

laptop out on the back patio and watching the mosquitoes biting my ankles. i told them to stop ankling and to have a take. I got over. until West Nile sets in.

just moved my sprinkler. harvested two blackberries. two. i pinched off a lot of tomato flowers early so mine will be another couple weeks. found aphids on one of 'em so i'll be boiling soap, garlic and hot sauce tonight to make an antiaphid spray.

what would be enough for arizona to feel that the government is holding up their end of the bargain?

[War Wagon]

my tomato's are doing fine, thanks for asking. The unruly bastards have topped and overpowered their cages yet again, encouraged by daily watering and non-stop blistering sun. It should be a bumper crop.

[Truman]

well its a dirty job but someone's got to do it.

laptop out on the back patio and watching the mosquitoes biting my ankles. i told them to stop ankling and to have a take. I got over. until West Nile sets in.

just moved my sprinkler. harvested two blackberries. two. i pinched off a lot of tomato flowers early so mine will be another couple weeks. found aphids on one of 'em so i'll be boiling soap, garlic and hot sauce tonight to make an antiaphid spray.

what would be enough for arizona to feel that the government is holding up their end of the bargain?

Rack. Non-take havin' bastards. Here's hoping those are Arab Spring mosquitos; they elect a democratic republic; and West Nile won't be a factor.

But to answer your question: I'm thinking that a bit o' help abrogating the commerce of the Mexican drug cartels through the desert might prove to be a bonus. A significant reduction in the murder of Arizona ranchers and Border Patrol Agents might be taken by the locals as a plus as well.

Clearly, there's some kind of serious issue down there, otherwise the locals wouldn't be all subjugating the Constitution and junk.

Missouri heat is no friend to blackberries. You try Miracle Grow?

[Bizzarofelice]

.

But to answer your question: I'm thinking that a bit o' help abrogating the commerce of the Mexican drug cartels through the desert might prove to be a bonus. A significant reduction in the murder of Arizona ranchers and Border Patrol Agents might be taken by the locals as a plus as well.

Clearly, there's some kind of serious issue down there, otherwise the locals wouldn't be all subjugating the Constitution and junk.

this sounds like an answer to the issue of sheriffs getting killed. not the problem of fereners entering the country. is the problem in this supreme court case that there are too many murderers in america? is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

Missouri heat is no friend to blackberries. You try Miracle Grow?

the vines are between my two compost bins. I'm worried about too much nutrition and not enough fruit. get too leggy.

[mvscal]

is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

Among thousands of other crimes, yes.

[Bizzarofelice]

is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

Among thousands of other crimes, yes.

not directly.

[Truman]

.

But to answer your question: I'm thinking that a bit o' help abrogating the commerce of the Mexican drug cartels through the desert might prove to be a bonus. A significant reduction in the murder of Arizona ranchers and Border Patrol Agents might be taken by the locals as a plus as well.

Clearly, there's some kind of serious issue down there, otherwise the locals wouldn't be all subjugating the Constitution and junk.

this sounds like an answer to the issue of sheriffs getting killed. not the problem of fereners entering the country. is the problem in this supreme court case that there are too many murderers in america? is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

It's all come to a head, Bace.

I'm thinking that if all those folks had crept in all nice-and-quiet-like, there wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, a few of those folks have decided to rob, rape, and murder the good citizens of Arizona.

I can understand why the locals might be a bit grumpy. Oh, and those people illegally voting in our elections doesn't set well either.

You know what they say about a few bad apples...

Regardless, I'm thinking that if I was pulled over for speeding in, say, France - a country in which I can't speak a lick of French - the locals might just be interested in establishing my country of origin.

No different here. It isn't profiling or racist asking a non-English speaker where he's from. Much less proving it in the way of documentation. And I don't think the Supremes set the bar too low to establish the same standard with our neighbors to the south.

.Missouri heat is no friend to blackberries. You try Miracle Grow?

the vines are between my two compost bins. I'm worried about too much nutrition and not enough fruit. get too leggy.

Sounds like you're brewing an alternative fuel source, Bace. And I'm thinking you're only a government grant short of establishing a winery. Parlay the two and you're only a contribution away from a departmental post. Beats government accounting. Sayin'.

[mvscal]

is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

Among thousands of other crimes, yes.

not directly.

No, it is absolutely direct.

[atomicdad]

is stopping a spic and asking them to show proper ID an effort to curb rancher kidnappings?

Among thousands of other crimes, yes.

not directly.

It's rather humorous listening to Bace debate immigration policy. Live in LA, San Diego, Phoenix et al. for a period of time. All nice places but you will see the impact first hand. You trying to tell us how it actually is sitting in Missouri is like me telling to you to chill out during a tornado, really it is just a little wind storm.

[Bizzarofelice]

It's rather humorous listening to Bace debate immigration policy.

I specifically addressed what needs to be done. Asked questions of people who seemed to have an opinion. Very open conversation. I believe the issues of ranchers getting kidnapped and illegals taking a job at Tyson chicken in Iowa are completely different issues. Different approaches for different problems.

If you, atomicdad, react emotionally to the issue, try and calm down and then start coming up with specifics.

[mvscal]

I specifically addressed what needs to be done.

People who don't belong here need to leave and the border needs to be secured. That is what needs to be done. Anything else is bullshit.

[Bizzarofelice]

so what is done to secure the border?

[War Wagon]

You trying to tell us how it actually is sitting in Missouri...

I don't know about St. Louis, but we definitely have our share of Hispanics in KC.

U.S. marshals came to my shop today and took one of our better welders out in handcuffs. I heard it was because of some criminal rap, not because he was here illegally, which was my first thought.

We have about 100 people who work in the shop now. Welders, machine operators, laborers, etc. and at least half of them are Hispanic. I think most of them are legal these days since they started using e-verify. Wasn't always the case.

They are damn good workers who show up everyday, on time.

[Bizzarofelice]

We have about 100 people who work in the shop now. Welders, machine operators, laborers, etc. and at least half of them are Hispanic. I think most of them are legal these days since they started using e-verify. Wasn't always the case.

They are damn good workers who show up everyday, on time.

last facory i worked in had 95% bosnian. thet came during the war and were better employees than he blacks. ten years later the hispanics came in. i actually had a social security card come across my desk with the same soc number as another worker already there. ins got a call.

when an i-9 is turned in, government should burst into action. don't know why we don't require proof of status when a worker is hired as well as actually looking into whether those documents are fals. gotta be a database. or is that a lbertarian nightmare?

[atomicdad]

Bace and Wags last posts nailed it. E-Verify is supposed to be a quick and easy system the Feds set up to check employment validity. Is it working? I don't know for sure, but it appears not to be working. Fail - Feds

Regular news reports showing "immigrants" making dumbass decisions to cross the back country in either the middle of winter or summer and having to be rescued by specialized search and rescue teams. Local Departments asking to get reimbursed by the federal government, denied. Fail - Feds

Smuggler Van speeding wrong way on freeway just north of the border causes wreck. Multiple passengers injured, air-lifted to local hospitals, others scraped off the freeway. Law abiding citizens that stop can only report that they saw those not injured took off running away from the highway. Air-Medvac cost, ER cost, EMT cost, fed reimbusement denied. FAIL - FEDS

Local Schools, my goodness, between the standardized testing program and the English as a Second Language Program, ESLP, are just fucked. This goes back to Bush and his 'no child left behind' bullshit.


Anyways, hope your 'maters are prolific. The June Gloom let off early this year so i'm hoping for some to be ready in another 3 weeks or so. The neighbors Apricots that hang over the fence are off the hook though.

[Dan Vogel]

I know you can debate many things about immigration but there is no debate that Obama was right when he said that he was doing the right thing. Those children who have been living here in America came in through no fault of their own. Most of them just want their life here to continue. If they have a criminal record it is a different story but most of them don't have that. Just get them out of the shadow and then more immigration issues can be handled. That's my opinion.

[Terry in Crapchester]

what would be enough for arizona to feel that the government is holding up their end of the bargain?

Well . . . their governor is Jan Brewer, so I'm guessing they'd be looking at something along the lines of a 40-foot high electric fence topped by barbed wire, together with 100,000 or so Border Patrol Agents with shoot to kill orders.

Oh, and Scalia got it wrong. Arizona's laws are not in conformity with federal law. Arizona made it a crime to be in the U.S. unlawfully. Federal law does not make that a crime, it's considered a "civil offense."

But what do I know, I live in an area that's virtually unaffected by illegal immigrants.

[mvscal]

Those children who have been living here in America came in through no fault of their own.

So? Who gives a fuck? They aren't legal immigrants and they need to get the fuck out of here or thrown out on their asses if they refuse.

There are laws which govern the procedure. Comply or leave.

[mvscal]

Arizona made it a crime to be in the U.S. unlawfully. Federal law does not make that a crime, it's considered a "civil offense."

There are ways around that, of course. Fraud and perjury come to mind immediately since illegal immigrants do not have the legal right to employment in this country.

[War Wagon]

Those children who have been living here in America came in through no fault of their own.

weak argument for allowing them to remain.

children pay for the sins of their parents everywhere, everyday.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

You can imagine the border fence as keeping you in.


Feel better?

[Dan Vogel]

So? Who gives a fuck? They aren't legal immigrants and they need to get the fuck out of here or thrown out on their asses if they refuse.

There are laws which govern the procedure. Comply or leave.

How do you know that these kids wouldn't comply if they had ever had a choice? I bet most of them would. You are assuming the worst. They are just kids and were brought in by someone elses will.

I never wished to attend anger class but have learned some things and some methods. Exercise is one. It's a good way to burn off stress.I recommend you get on an exercise plan because every message I read from you is coming across very mad about something. Maybe you somehow enjoy your anger but I can assure you that it isn't healthy.

I have a miserable life and wish I were dead!

[mvscal]

How do you know that these kids wouldn't comply if they had ever had a choice?

Hey, why don't we find out by throwing them out and letting them apply through proper channels?