So what does the future hold for PSU?

[PSUFAN]

there isn't a governing body for Churches.

I have no idea why there isn't. There definitely should be, the need is well-established. As you say, my questions and comparison might be outside the realm of sports...but by the same token, isn't this whole scandal outside the realm of sports then? Aren't we making the case that this is ultimately outside of the jurisdiction of the NCAA?

I think that any NCAA sanctions should take place once the allegations have been dealt with by our justice system. It then will be far easier to determine where the two aspects intersect, and what the appropriate punishments from the NCAA should be.

As devastating as the Freeh Report is, exactly what has been established in a court of law right now? Only Sandusky's guilt. Don't misconstrue - I agree that the Freeh Report is important and an important part of this process, believe me...but the judicial process that we all ultimately abide by needs to move forward.

[Left Seater]

The athletic department had hundreds of reasons to keep this quiet including recruiting which is a competitive advantage.

Never knew JoePed used "we don't rape kids" as part of his recruiting spiel.

Pretty sure he never did. But scandals usually hurt recruiting and lead to tons of negative recruiting by other schools.

[PSUFAN]

So why should the worst offense ever perpetrated be ignored?

Sam...exactly who is ignoring it?

[Left Seater]

Agree that the criminal part is outside of the NCAA. The NCAA does have a role though in punishment of the athletic department. Those are the things I am trying to keep separate.

Agree the courts need to move forward and anything that comes up there can be used by the NCAA, but I don't think the NCAA should wait 5 years to punish either.

[PSUFAN]

I seriously doubt they will wait 5 years. I agree that no stalling should be tolerated, but understand - the PSU community absolutely wants rapid efforts towards clarity on these matters as well.

We can't just pick a point in this - like the point of the Freeh Report release - and say "we know everything now". That would be inadequate for all involved. For all we know, the upcoming perjury trials will unearth even more that must be dealt with.

[Left Seater]

Totally agree. The NCAA will have to do their own work to determine what is relevant to them and what isn't.

[M Club]

The athletic department had hundreds of reasons to keep this quiet including recruiting which is a competitive advantage.

Never knew JoePed used "we don't rape kids" as part of his recruiting spiel.

Pretty sure he never did. But scandals usually hurt recruiting and lead to tons of negative recruiting by other schools.

was just a niggling detail on my part, but i still don't see how a cover up gives Ped State an unfair advantage there unless homeboy was telling recruits they get away with kiddly diddling so just imagine the shiz they'd get away at rapey valley that they wouldn't anywhere else.

[PSUFAN]

I am totally behind the effort to get the statue removed. This is ridiculous, though. Someone spent money on hiring that plane so that they'd get national headlines and be able to clap themselves on the back. Every one of those dollars could have gone to support advocacy and services, if that was truly the concern (as it should be).

This is indicative of an errant focus on the football side of this - a failing that both paterno-worshipers and the opposite camp are succumbing to in disturbing numbers.

[Goober McTuber]

PSUFAN, what’s your opinion on the library? Should his name come off of that?

[Van]

It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt numerous times in our courts of law that the Catholic Church organization sheltered, protected, and hid abusers.

Of course, but has it been proven that the very face of modern Catholicism along with the CEO of Catholicism were both in on the decision to shelter, protect and hide the abusers?

I don't know. Maybe it has. I know for a fact that in Penn St's case it has.

Earlier Goobs wanted me to use 'systematically' instead of 'systemically' in my assessment of how those children were raped by Penn St. I was referring to how those kids were raped in total, body and soul, but Goobs is correct in what he was implying: those kids were systematically raped by the Penn St administration, going all the way to the very top.

Certainly the same holds true of Catholicism in general, but does it reach all the way up to the pope? If it does, yep, burn the whole thing down.

Please leave the Vatican alone, though. That place is awesome.

Terry, let's hear how you could argue to shut PSU football down and then NOT argue for Catholic Churches to be closed with exactly the same vehemence. Let's hope that your argument against shutting Catholic Churches is not that it would be more difficult, as Van is arguing. Is it somehow more honorable to exempt an organization from scrutiny and righteous indignation...because it would be harder to go after them? I'll have to hear why, in detail.

It is a valid point, though, purely in practical terms. It's easy to punish a football program and its supporting university. There is an organization in place whose charge is to do exactly that, and their decrees are binding. What equivalent organization exists that has the power to do the same to the Catholic Church? Again, how does one go about eradicating a worldwide religion?

[Van]

The athletic department had hundreds of reasons to keep this quiet including recruiting which is a competitive advantage.

Never knew JoePed used "we don't rape kids" as part of his recruiting spiel.

Even though you're intentionally twisting the point, that one still made me laugh.

[Van]

So why should the worst offense ever perpetrated be ignored?

Sam...exactly who is ignoring it?

The NCAA, if you and Mgo had your 'druthers.

isn't this whole scandal outside the realm of sports then?

Of course not, and absolutely not. This was a football coach who committed the crime, followed by the head coach and another assistant coach (at the minimum) who engaged in a cover-up along with the Penn St administration...all for the purpose of protecting the football program.

Okay, I admit that Penn St football hasn't been too hot of late, but still they do remain firmly in the "realm of sport."

Aren't we making the case that this is ultimately outside of the jurisdiction of the NCAA?

Only the criminal charges. The matter of LOIC so blatantly on display at Penn St these past fourteen years is well within the jurisdiction of the NCAA. I provided the link to their rules governing these issues, and Penn St is clearly guilty of a multitude of NCAA violations.

[Goober McTuber]

It has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt numerous times in our courts of law that the Catholic Church organization sheltered, protected, and hid abusers.

Of course, but has it been proven that the very face of modern Catholicism along with the CEO of Catholicism were both in on the decision to shelter, protect and hide the abusers?

I don't know. Maybe it has. I know for a fact that in Penn St's case it has.

Earlier Goobs wanted me to use 'systematically' instead of 'systemically' in my assessment of how those children were raped by Penn St. I was referring to how those kids were raped in total, body and soul, but Goobs is correct in what he was implying: those kids were systematically raped by the Penn St administration, going all the way to the very top.

Now see, that's where I would have used systemically; by the entire system. Sandusky raped them systematically, one right after another.

[PSUFAN]

PSUFAN, what’s your opinion on the library? Should his name come off of that?

For years, the tendency to deify Joe Paterno has rubbed me the wrong way. I have tried to make that perfectly clear in this thread and many, many other ones.

I've only been in the "Paterno" part of Pattee Library once, soon after it was named, and I wasn't impressed. I didn't see much in the way of new stacks for books, I just saw the addition of decorative space. There are reasons entirely to do with taxation for charitable giving, which is exactly what I thought of the paterno family contribution.

Call me a sourpuss, but I was very cynical about "Paterno Library". I just walked past it on Saturday, and again I was impressed by how little new "learning space" it added to Pattee Library.

Having said all of that - do I think they should take his name off of the library? I really don't give a crap. I am in favor of removing the statue, I never felt that was the right thing to begin with. Joe did a lot for the program, but he didn't do it alone, and I never agreed with those who thought it was "his". In fact, I always felt (and I devoted a long thread to this here years ago) that the team was better back in the days where Joe didn't rule all coaching aspects with an iron fist according to his wishes. After the offensive record-breaking 1994 season, Joe was quoted as saying "I'm just not comfortable winning football games that way". The most dominant, picture-perfect performance by a PSU team during the long span of his career came in spite of him, not at his direction. That is to say that seeing the program through the filter of Joe's Cult of Personality - well, I was always in opposition to that. I feel the statue sends entirely the wrong message, and did before we knew anything about sexual abuse at Sandusky's hands. It never should have been put there to begin with.

[The Seer]

Ped St better hope they don't get the same type punishment that SuC received...it's just destroying their recruiting capabilities.... / :x

[PSUFAN]

In the case of the Catholic Church - popes very certainly were organizational enablers to abuse, as Paterno was to Sandusky's abuse...if that distinction really matters, which I'm not convinced it does.

Never have I asserted that the NCAA should ignore this. In fact, over and over I've said that should it be established by Emmert and his people that violations occurred, then they should be met with sanctions.

Contrast that to your stance, where you're immersed and stinking in the certainty that there were violations...pretty much just because you say there were. Give Emmert a call and lead the charge...and at some point maybe you'll have convinced him to remove USC's sanctions, if you're lucky.

[Van]

Earlier Goobs wanted me to use 'systematically' instead of 'systemically' in my assessment of how those children were raped by Penn St. I was referring to how those kids were raped in total, body and soul, but Goobs is correct in what he was implying: those kids were systematically raped by the Penn St administration, going all the way to the very top.

Now see, that's where I would have used systemically; by the entire system. Sandusky raped them systematically, one right after another.

Can't we just agree to agree?!

[Van]

Ped St better hope they don't get the same type punishment that SuC received...it's just destroying their recruiting capabilities.... / :x

:twisted:

[Van]

Actually, PSUFan, had you bothered to read the link I provided, including the cut and pasted NCAA definitions of LOIC, you'd know that I'm not just stamping my feet and saying they're guilty because I say so!

No, they clearly committed violations of written NCAA rules.

http://compliance.pac-12.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

ACTS THAT ARE LIKELY TO DEMONSTRATE A LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL.

1. A person with compliance responsibilities fails to establish a proper system for compliance or fails to monitor the operations of a compliance system appropriately.

2. A person with compliance responsibilities does not take steps to alter the system of compliance when there are indications the system is not working.

If a system of control is in place, a single deviation by a member of the athletics staff or a representative of the institution's athletics interests will not be considered a lack of institutional control. However, if there are a number of violations, even if they all are minor, indicating that the compliance system is not operating effectively, the person(s) responsible cannot ignore the situation, but must take steps to correct the compliance system.

5. The institution fails to make clear, by its words and its actions, that those personnel who willfully violate NCAA rules, or who are grossly negligent in applying those rules, will be disciplined and made subject to discharge.

Any operating compliance system may be thwarted by an individual who acts secretly in violation of the rules or who fails to ascertain whether a questionable action is or is not permissible. If an institution does not make clear that individual violations of NCAA rules will result in disciplinary action against the involved individual, and if it does not actually discipline those who are found to have violated such rules, it has opened the door to permitting further violations. In such a case, future violations of an individual nature will constitute failures of institutional control.

6. The institution fails to make clear that any individual involved in its
intercollegiate athletics program has a duty to report any perceived violations of NCAA rules and can do so without fear of reprisals of any kind.

Compliance is everyone's obligation. Loyalty to one's coworkers, student-athletes, or
athletics boosters cannot take precedence over loyalty to the institution and its commitment to comply with NCAA rules. There is a lack of institutional control if individuals are afraid to report violations because they have reason to fear that if they make such a report there will be negative consequences.

7. A director of athletics or any other individual with compliance responsibilities fails to investigate or direct an investigation of a possible significant violation of NCAA rules or fails to report a violation properly.

When a director of athletics or any other individual with compliance responsibilities has
been informed of, or learns that there exists a possible significant violation of NCAA rules, and then fails to ensure that the matter is properly investigated, there is a lack of institutional control. Similarly, if an actual violation of NCAA rules comes to the attention of the director of athletics or a person with compliance responsibilities and there is a failure to report the violation through appropriate institutional channels to a conference to which the institution belongs and to the NCAA, such failure constitutes a lack of institutional control.

8. A head coach fails to create and maintain an atmosphere for compliance within the program the coach supervises or fails to monitor the activities of assistant coaches regarding compliance.

Yes, Penn St's actions clearly meet every one of those definitions.

As for Emmert, the NCAA and possible LOIC-related sanctions? Here ya go...

NCAA president talks about possible Penn State sanctions (VIDEO)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr- ... ncaaf.html

While the NCAA has said it's going to need some time to sort out the information from the Freeh Report, which revealed Penn State's knowledge of the child sexual abuse by former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky, NCAA president Mark Emmert seems to be leaning toward potentially bringing down the hammer on the university and potentially issuing the NCAA's dreaded "death penalty" — if he can prove there were football-related violations.

In a PBS interview with host Tavis Smiley, Emmert acknowledged that he had "never seen anything as egregious as this in terms of just overall conduct and behavior inside a university and hope to never see it again." Emmert's words harkened a possible NCAA death penalty, which has only been handed down once in football - SMU in 1986. SMU was banned from competition in 1987 and home games in 1988 (it missed the entire season) and postseason in 1989. It wasn't allowed to be on live television, its recruiting was crippled and its coaching staff was cut. It took SMU more than a decade to get back to winning seasons and because of that, it's a sanction the NCAA doesn't hand out lightly.

But the fact that Penn State knowingly hid Sandusky's actions for more than a decade gives Emmert pause, but he's not quite ready to break the NCAA's unwritten rule of not stepping in to deal with criminal cases. However, he also recognizes this is a unique situation and requires a thorough examination of the facts and whether Penn State's misdeeds are enough to warrant the NCAA's definition of lack of institutional control.

"This is completely different than an impermissible benefits scandal like [what] happened at SMU, or anything else we've dealt with," Emmert told Smiley. "This is as systemic a cultural problem as it is a football problem. There have been people that said this wasn't a football scandal.

"Well, it was more than a football scandal, much more than a football scandal. It was that but much more. And we'll have to figure out exactly what the right penalties are. I don't know that past precedent makes particularly good sense in this case, because it's really an unprecedented problem."

There's got to be a part of the NCAA that's waiting for Penn State to make the first move and let it off the hook. ( Edit: "Never! The NCAA, wanting to be let off the hook from doing its job? Wash your mouth with soap!" - Mgo ) Many have suggested the school voluntarily suspend the football program for a requisite amount of years or impose other sanctions. However, Penn State hasn't been quick to take any action in light of this scandal as evidenced with its hesitancy to remove the statue of famed coach Joe Paterno, who was implicated in the cover-up. The only party that seems willing to try and erase Penn State's shady past are the students, who renamed "Paternoville," the group that "manages the encampment of Penn State students outside Beaver Stadium for home football games," to "Nittanyville."

The Department of Education also is weighing in on possible sanctions for Penn State's violation of the Clery Act, which requires federally funded universities to publicly report all criminal activity on or around campus.

The NCAA decision isn't something that's going to be swift and probably not something that will be handed down prior to the 2012 season, which begins in about six weeks. But it will be interesting to see which party makes the first move - the NCAA or Penn State.

[PSUFAN]

I think what's clear is that Emmert will look at it. What the NCAA will find and do is unknown to you and I...and also Emmert, at this point.

Unfortunately for you, though, USC will still be subject to sanctions - regardless of what the NCAA ultimately decides on PSU...and I'd be surprised if anyone reading this doesn't recognize that frustration in your vehemence here.

[Van]

Oh, I've never denied that I was frustrated by the NCAA's insane overreaching in the USC case. So? They were pressured into overreacting by a bloodthirsty public, similar to the situation they face now with Penn St. The difference is that in the USC case the NCAA didn't have the legal system taking care of the perps plus the death of the main actor as an easy fall-back. Here they do, and I suspect they will use that fall-back either to do nothing or, at worst, hit Penn St with a penalty that won't even come close to being commensurate with their violations.

I think anyone reading this thread would also easily see through some of your lame obfuscations and attempts to spin and divert attention away from Penn St's obvious NCAA culpability.

"I'm not sure Penn St even committed any NCAA violations. Has anyone demonstrated that serial child-rape and subsequent cover-ups by the football program and the administration to protect the football program are NCAA violations?"

I mean, christ, Dave. Listen to yourself.

Seriously, every time you talk about Penn St's sudden efforts to raise awareness and provide assistant to groups that specialize in assisting victims of child abuse, I want to barf. For you to connect those actions with a need to maintain an outlaw football program is just self-serving transparency defined.

You really want to make a positive statement to the world? You truly want to demonstrate remorse for what you did? Voluntarily shut down your football program for at least two years. Do so entirely of your own accord, independent of anything the NCAA might add to the punishment. While your football program is on hiatus, continue to work your ass off at providing recompense to the victims even as you continue to work your ass off in assisting child abuse-awareness programs.

Do not insult us with any further nonsense regarding the need for the football program to continue...sniffle...sob...for the sake of the children!

[Dinsdale]

Do not insult us with any further nonsense regarding the need for the football program to continue...sniffle...sob...for the sake of the children!

And in exchange, will you stop insulting us with the whole "USC did nothing wrong" schtick?

They made no effort whatsoever at any sort of compliance. In fact, they INTENTIONALLY created an atmoshpere of noncompliance... much like PSU did, just with different violations.

[Goober McTuber]

Earlier Goobs wanted me to use 'systematically' instead of 'systemically' in my assessment of how those children were raped by Penn St. I was referring to how those kids were raped in total, body and soul, but Goobs is correct in what he was implying: those kids were systematically raped by the Penn St administration, going all the way to the very top.

Now see, that's where I would have used systemically; by the entire system. Sandusky raped them systematically, one right after another.

Can't we just agree to agree?!

Who do you think you're dealing with?

[Van]

No, Dins, I won't, and quit trying to make such a stupid comparison where none exists. USC's coaches and administrators were never found by the NCAA to be in violation of anything in the Reggie Bush case. Only Reggie was. All that other tangential shit about not allowng more than three former players or Snoop Dog to be on the sidelines during USC games was just part and parcel of the NCAA's gross overreaching in their sanctions.

Thirty fucking scholarships. A two-year bowl ban. No ability to double-down on Oregon in the CCG. And for what? A single player who was susceptible to the come-ons of a rogue agent who never set foot on a USC practice or playing field, which seems to be your incessant chant, that USC's playing fields were verily awash in ne'er-do-well agents at the ~nudge-wink~ behest of Pete Carroll.

Hell, I'll be mildly surprised if the NCAA hits Penn St even that hard, and Penn St's football-related violations make USC's look like Reggie wore too much eye-black.

[Dinsdale]

USC's coaches and administrators were never found by the NCAA to be in violation of anything in the Reggie Bush case.

1) Take some deep breaths

2) Wipe the foam from your mouth

3) Apologize for saying something so monumentally stupid

4) Reread the NCAA report, back up and take another run at it, only try to make sense this time, and maybe leave out the complete falsehoods


These steps will do nothing to negate the :WORLD'SBIGGESTFACEPALM: you just fully earned, but at least you won't sound like such a raving lunatic.

[Van]

Nah, I'll just wait for you to link me up with something specific from the NCAA. I know they stated their concern for USC's "environment" of laxnesss in terms of not aggressively seeking out violations and pursuing compliancy, but unless I'm mistaken I don't recall there being a single specific charge levied against Pete Carroll, any of his assistant coaches or any of USC's administrators.

The formal findings of violations simply were not commensurate with the punishment handed down. EOS.

Nice of you to try and make this about USC, though, when we're staring at the Josef Stalin of NCAA violators in the thread's subject.

[Dinsdale]

I made this about USC?

Either take some meds, or lay off them, whichever is appropriate.

[Goober McTuber]

For what it's worth, I think USC got totally hosed. And I'm good with that.

[Van]

This current tangent of yours? Yes, you made this about USC. Specifically, you made this about me and USC.

Considering your whole team is apparently a bunch of potheads, which, last I checked, would make them all criminals to some extent or another, and certainly not a whole lot of compliancy efforting is going on in Eugene in this regard, if I were you I'd just lay low and keep your eye on the ball. Never mind the other shit Nike U is likely guilty of and not endeavoring to report to the NCAA.

Seriously, we're dealing here with a university that allowed serial rape for at least twelve years in lieu of protecting its football program. Everything else is beyond trivial. Transgressions by USC, Oregon, Ohio St, Bama...all meaningless. Even Miami's Decades of Dionysus act is but a spit of grape juice in the ocean compared to the monstrosity of Penn St's sins. Would it be asking too much of you to remember that?

[Van]

For what it's worth, I think USC got totally hosed. And I'm good with that.

Yeah, I sorta gather that that's the prevailing feeling 'round most parts of the country.

[Dinsdale]

Dude shows up in new (to him) car. Actually leaves lines BLANK on the form to the Compliance Department.

So Van... is this the Compliance Department "doing nothing wrong"?

Ever read Lefty's story about driving to practice in a new beater car?

[Van]

It wasn't a new car, though. It's not as if he showed up in a fucking loaded 2005 Escalade. He showed up in a ghetto fabulous POS with gaudy rims, similar to but not nearly as ridiculously fugly as the one Darren McFadden sported while at Arkansas.

It's a tired cliche, but all cliches do stem from basic truths: It's not as if Reggie was unique among college football players in sporting wheels he seemingly shouldn't have been able to afford.

Anyway, the bottom line is that clearly he was guilty of accepting perks for himself and his in-laws in violation of NCAA rules. That is no longer in dispute. The rest of the formal findings against USC weren't really even actual charges against USC. They were essentially little more than mere admonishments.

They got hammered above and beyond all reason the way they did for three reasons, and three reasons only:

1. The public wanted USC's blood, and the NCAA infractions committe saw in this bloodlust a tailor-made opportunity to prove their supposed ethical mettle.

2. Mike Garrett. His arrogance in the face of the investigation certainly was akin to sticking USC's jaw out and just asking to be punched.

3. The specific members of the NCAA committee, including their specific agendas. Fuckabuncha Paul Dee.

[PSUFAN]

every time you talk about Penn St's sudden efforts to raise awareness and provide assistant to groups that specialize in assisting victims of child abuse, I want to barf.

Of course you do - because for you, it's actually important that this be viewed primarily as a football problem. Yes, you're cool with minimizing the seriousness of the affair just so that PSU can be deemed an NCAA violator, and the program you happen to back, replete with casual and endemic violations as a daily matter of course, can be popped off the top of the list.

Sorry, the PSU community is taking this far too seriously to pull that kind of lame ass parlor trick. It's not shocking to see it become the centerpiece of your approach here though...not at all.

You're suggesting that the grandest gesture the PSU community could offer to counter to abusers would be to to shut down football? Is it a trick of the light, or are you really that humid with schmick-like trojan hubris?

[Dinsdale]

This current tangent of yours? Yes, you made this about USC. Specifically, you made this about me and USC.

No, you did.

Considering your whole team is apparently a bunch of potheads, which, last I checked, would make them all criminals to some extent or another

Uhm... no. Something about a landmark decriminalization thing in 1973, or something. Not a criminal offense, no worse than jaywalking (except they jacked the fines up in recent years, although the violation is rarely enforced, especially in Eugene).

and certainly not a whole lot of compliancy efforting is going on in Eugene in this regard

Huh? Public hearings (legally required) going on this week about the new random peetest program proposed by Kelly and the PTB sayswhat?

That would be "establishing a compliance policy" after a concern has come to light... swing and a miss.

if I were you I'd just lay low and keep your eye on the ball. Never mind the other shit Nike U is likely guilty of and not endeavoring to report to the NCAA.

I don't refute that we have become possibly the dirtiest program this side of the Southeastern United States. But certainly not unique in that regard, just better at it.

Seriously, we're dealing here with a university that allowed serial rape for at least twelve years in lieu of protecting its football program. Everything else is beyond trivial. Transgressions by USC, Oregon, Ohio St, Bama...all meaningless. Even Miami's Decades of Dionysus act is but a spit of grape juice in the ocean compared to the monstrosity of Penn St's sins. Would it be asking too much of you to remember that?

You've made some awesomely solid points in this matter, but this line of reasoning isn't one of them... in fact, its stupid. While this ugly era of JoDemigod is certainly the worst thing we've ever seen in CFB (and hopefully remains the worst for eternity, since I can't imagine much worse), that's the rub with the quoted paragraph, and much of the tack you've taken in the discussion -- just because someone commits a string of serial killings, it doesn't make a mugger any less culpable for their actions.

PSU's LOIC has nothing whatsoever to do with USC's LOIC... pretty basic.

[Dinsdale]

It wasn't a new car, though. It's not as if he showed up in a fucking loaded 2005 Escalade. He showed up in a ghetto fabulous POS with gaudy rims, similar to but not nearly as ridiculously fugly as the one Darren McFadden sported while at Arkansas.

It was on the cover of a fucking car magazine, dumbass.

And, once again... HE DIDN'T FILL OUT THE COMPLIANCE PAPERWORK. Sinking in yet? OBVIOUSLY, someone in the Compliance Department was in on it. Yeah, blank paperwork... how would the Compliance Department ever have known? :yeah,that'sarolleyes:

It's a tired cliche, but all cliches do stem from basic truths: It's not as if Reggie was unique among college football players in sporting wheels he seemingly shouldn't have been able to afford.

Eric Dickerson and Craig James sayswhat?


They got hammered above and beyond all reason the way they did for three reasons, and three reasons only:

1. The public wanted USC's blood, and the NCAA infractions committe saw in this bloodlust a tailor-made opportunity to prove their supposed ethical mettle.

2. Mike Garrett. His arrogance in the face of the investigation certainly was akin to sticking USC's jaw out and just asking to be punched.

3. The specific members of the NCAA committee, including their specific agendas. Fuckabuncha Paul Dee.[/quote]


Simply... delusional.

An AD and HC thumbing their nose at thr NCAA. A guy flaunting his newfound money around campus, even at the practice facility. Agents in the locker room. Player's family flying all over to games/events (covered by USC's "no questions asked, EVER" policy). Briefcases full of cash to a basketball recruit. Free international phone calls for a women's tennis player... ON THE AD's PHONE (nah, no red flag there... how could the Compliance Department EVER have known?).


Maybe the biggest, longest running case of "the rules don't apply to us" in our lifetimes.

They clearly deserved severe punishment (which was in fact minor, all things considered, despite the whining from USC fan), since they'd racked up violations at an alarming clip for a couple decades prior, yet still took the "the rules don't apply to us -- we're USC" attitude.

And since you brought up Miami -- they deserve a much worse fate. Not sure how I feel about PSU -- some sort of sanctions are in order, but the university rid itself of every figure involved, within months. They "self-sanctioned" to a degree, but the NCAA can't turn a blind eye, either.

[Dinsdale]

I also forgot USC's...

Having too many coaches (while under fucking investigation... you'd think maybe the Compliance Department might tighten up while under investigation for noncompliance?).

Illegal recruiting contacts (Oregon is getting hammered for this right now, although it was a simple error in the HR department).

All this within 5 years of the last Major Violation... give me a break.

[Van]

every time you talk about Penn St's sudden efforts to raise awareness and provide assistant to groups that specialize in assisting victims of child abuse, I want to barf.

Of course you do - because for you, it's actually important that this be viewed primarily as a football problem.

In terms of Penn St's motivations throughout every step of the process over these past twelve years it wasn't primarily a football problem, it was solely a football problem. All they were interested in was protecting their cash cow.

Yes, you're cool with minimizing the seriousness of the affair just so that PSU can be deemed an NCAA violator,

Which affair? Penn St's transgressions, or their belated attempts at redressing those transgressions?

There is no minimizing the transgressions. No condemnation could ever be severe enough. As for their attempt at redressing their sins, great, I'm sure we're all in support of such actions. Who wouldn't be?

and the program you happen to back, replete with casual and endemic violations as a daily matter of course, can be popped off the top of the list.

The relative seriousness of USC picking their noses and flicking the boogers on the sidewalk was long ago knocked from the top of the list first by Jim Tressel's act, then to an astounding degree by the accusations levied against Miami.

Penn St just trompled anything and everything violations-related to smithereens.

Sorry, the PSU community is taking this far too seriously to pull that kind of lame ass parlor trick.

Parlor trick? You mean like spinning what you did wrong into a shiny bauble of what you're now doing right, as if that should pardon you from deserved punishment for everything you did wrong?

See, I and most people would've been a lot more impressed by Penn St's efforts on behalf of child-rape organizations and rape victims had those efforts begun long before the university became embroiled in a child-rape scandal. As it stands now, it appears to be forced window dressing.

It's not shocking to see it become the centerpiece of your approach here though...not at all.

Nor should it be. I'm rather consistent that way. I see child rape and cover-ups to protect it, I condemn it. I hear excuses made as to why those who shielded the rapist ought to go unpunished by the NCAA despite this clearly being a football-related issue, I condemn those arguments.

You're suggesting that the grandest gesture the PSU community could offer to counter to abusers would be to to shut down football? Is it a trick of the light, or are you really that humid with schmick-like trojan hubris?

First off, I already used 'hubris' on Dins, so knock it off!

Secondly, did I or did I not make it clear that I felt the grandest gesture Penn St (not the community, but the actual university) could make would be to shut down the football program in conjunction with continuing their efforts at providing redress for the victims and assistance to those child abuse-awareness organizations?

It's not an either/or deal here. Penn St can and should do one while also doing the other. The Penn St community is free to continue doing the right thing by those organizations even in the temporary absence of their beloved football program. If their concern truly is for the victims, then the presence or lack thereof of a local football team would be of no consequence. All the fundraising on behalf of the victims and their advocacy groups should go on unabated.

[M2]

So Van... is this the Compliance Department "doing nothing wrong"?

What's this Compliance Dept. you speak of ???

U$C had one... that's right, just one person in their Compliance Department for all the athletic programs. Most schools have 30 or more people.


Not to mention Reggie Bush's mom, dad, and brother rolling up to Cal Memorial Stadium in a big fat limousine for the game with Cal... and that's not the half of it.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/n ... -bushprobe

[Van]

This current tangent of yours? Yes, you made this about USC. Specifically, you made this about me and USC.

No, you did.

Wtf?! The mighty Dins, going to the KC Tard Card? First Terry, now YOU?

Now I've seen everything.

In any case...

Do not insult us with any further nonsense regarding the need for the football program to continue...sniffle...sob...for the sake of the children!

And in exchange, will you stop insulting us with the whole "USC did nothing wrong" schtick?

Clearly, you attempted to make this about me and USC. That post was the genesis.

Considering your whole team is apparently a bunch of potheads, which, last I checked, would make them all criminals to some extent or another

Uhm... no. Something about a landmark decriminalization thing in 1973, or something. Not a criminal offense, no worse than jaywalking (except they jacked the fines up in recent years, although the violation is rarely enforced, especially in Eugene).

Ummm...yes. Even in Eugene kids and young adults are not legally allowed to walk around campus smoking pot, not without a medical ID okay. The fact that they all continue to keep it hush-hush and do not do it during practice or while on camera during a heartwarming ESPN Game Day visit ought to tell you that they know they are committing a no-no...to some extent or another, which is what I already stated.

Some of those kids are very likely in possession of more than a "jaywalking" amount of pot. Some of those kids likely deal. Pot doesn't grow on trees, you know.

Oh, wait.

and certainly not a whole lot of compliancy efforting is going on in Eugene in this regard

Huh? Public hearings (legally required) going on this week about the new random peetest program proposed by Kelly and the PTB sayswhat?

That would be "establishing a compliance policy" after a concern has come to light... swing and a miss.

You're going to trot THAT garbage out there after telling us what an open secret rampant pot use among the Oregon football team has been in Eugene for years and years?

Dude, you're awesome. You are utterly shameless.

Besides, didn't you just try and tell me that it's not any sort of a legal issue anymore? If so, then why the need for the hearing? What sort of compliance reporting is necessary if it's not against the rules? They don't convene to discuss the importance of reporting the smoking of tobacco too, do they?

Of course not, because smoking cigarettes is legal. Getting baked isn't.

if I were you I'd just lay low and keep your eye on the ball. Never mind the other shit Nike U is likely guilty of and not endeavoring to report to the NCAA.

I don't refute that we have become possibly the dirtiest program this side of the Southeastern United States. But certainly not unique in that regard, just better at it.

Exactly.

Seriously, we're dealing here with a university that allowed serial rape for at least twelve years in lieu of protecting its football program. Everything else is beyond trivial. Transgressions by USC, Oregon, Ohio St, Bama...all meaningless. Even Miami's Decades of Dionysus act is but a spit of grape juice in the ocean compared to the monstrosity of Penn St's sins. Would it be asking too much of you to remember that?

You've made some awesomely solid points in this matter, but this line of reasoning isn't one of them... in fact, its stupid. While this ugly era of JoDemigod is certainly the worst thing we've ever seen in CFB (and hopefully remains the worst for eternity, since I can't imagine much worse), that's the rub with the quoted paragraph, and much of the tack you've taken in the discussion -- just because someone commits a string of serial killings, it doesn't make a mugger any less culpable for their actions.

My point all along has been: Make the punishment fit the crime. It remains so. USC's crime? It clearly didn't merit the sanctions handed down by the NCAA. Penn St's crime? I don't know that the NCAA has it within their power to punish Penn St in due measure. Bare minimum would be a two-year suspension of the football program, and in light of the seriousness of this matter even that seems utterly trivial in its very nature.

"You allowed child-rape to occur for a minimum of twelve years. For that, we're not going to let you play the game of football for a short while."

Doesn't that sound completely ridiculous in its paucity of impact? I don't know about you, but that sounds entirely out of whack to me. If I were the NCAA, I would be so astonished at what Penn St has laid on my doorstep that I would seriously consider banning the program for a number of years equal to the number of known victims.

But, like I said, that's just me.

PSU's LOIC has nothing whatsoever to do with USC's LOIC... pretty basic.

Couldn't agree more.

~and so kumbaya has been restored to the land as naked coeds dance joyously around the brilliant transcendent flames of T1B's Bonfire of Blessed Reconciliation~

[Dinsdale]

Not to mention Reggie Bush's mom, dad, and brother rolling up to Cal Memorial Stadium in a big fat limousine for the game with Cal... and that's not the half of it.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/n ... -bushprobe

The list just goes on forever, but not in USCfans' mind -- they did nothing wrong. Even after the allegations were reported in the media, USC refused to investigate, and kept on with the same "compliance department."

I'm not trying to hijack this thread to a USC rehash, but the comparison has been made, and since it was the last major scandal, USC and PSU's fates will forever be linked, making it relevant... as will Miami's fate, and to an extent, SMU's... just the way it is.