The Greatest Generation, Still Kicking Ass...

[smackaholic]

Prolly a good idea to light one off every now and then to remind the Huns what happens when they fukk with us.

Rack the army air corps.

[dingus]

Hope that fucker was dropped by a B-17 my old man flew on. He got to spend 15 months as a guest of the NAZI Germans when his plane went down-fitting payback.

[Wolfman]

Interesting. Could also have been dropped by MrsO's Uncle Doug (still alive BTW) who flew for the RCAF. Was shot down by an Me-262 and was a guest at a Stalag. Those guys cannot be racked enough.

[Smackie Chan]

Me-262

GREAT song!

[Wolfman]

Along with 'Stukas Over Surrey" by the Nervous Germans. Bet you don't have that one for Friday night.

[Smackie Chan]

Along with 'Stukas Over Surrey" by the Nervous Germans. Bet you don't have that one for Friday night.

Tune in to see who loses that bet. I'll wager BSmack's $15.

[Van]

He has that one too, the live version from Strangers in the Night.

[smackaholic]

Interesting. Could also have been dropped by MrsO's Uncle Doug (still alive BTW) who flew for the RCAF. Was shot down by an Me-262 and was a guest at a Stalag. Those guys cannot be racked enough.

Hey Wolfman, here is the info on my father in law:

Richard S. Wesson - Bombardier

They were flying B-24s, and he was lucky, made it back every time. Passed away in 2002. There used to be a British show on TV, Danger UXB (unexploded bomb) all about guys who recovered and removed uxb in England. I remember he could not bring himself to watch it. That and Memphis Belle.

Rack 'em all.

Rack every one of those old geezers that had the cajones to climb into a plane and bomb the fukk outta the nazis. They knew that there was a really good chance they'd end up dead or in a stalag.

[Derron]

Reference was made in another post to Neil Armstrong's huge brass balls, and I submit these fly boys possessed equally large balls.

Unpressurized, uninsulated aircraft, flying at up to 20,000 in the winter had to be real fucking cold. Real cold. Knowing the losses they were taking, you left knowing your number could be up that trip. 25 missions and you went home.

Boeing built one hell of an airplane for those days, huge control surfaces that helped when they got shot the fuck up, and helped them make it home. Pretty hard to bail out in flat spins or uncontrolled dives, or with one wing shot off.

[Wolfman]

Toured both a B-17 and B-24 Liberator at an air show here a few years ago. Just managed to get past the bomb racks in the B-17. Those guys were slim and trim.

[Left Seater]

$400 per person or $400 per hour?

Wonder what they would charge to fly the thing?

[Van]

The depiction on that airplane is overtly sexist. We are deeply offended, and demand that it be removed and apologies be given forthwith. - Modern American Society

[Smackie Chan]

There is a B-25 Mitchell (supposedly the loudest Allied airplane of WWII) hangered a few miles west of here. [/url]

Maybe shoulda checked there for your steak. :wink:

[Screw_Michigan]

Nice Florida Everblades tournament shirt, Wolftard.

[Wolfman]

For those who don't know what Screw=Loose is talking about:

http://www.floridaeverblades.com/fanzone/college/

FYI--I'm an alumnus of Maine and played football for the Black Bears.

[Wolfman]

Nice video. Brought back memory of my own experience touring those birds. Made me more aware of the guts it took to get into those things, unpressurized, unheated, flying at altitudes requiring oxygen. Passing through barrages of flak and German fighters. Amazing. I especially got a sense of how dangerous it was for the turret gunner in the belly and the tail gunner who were pretty much alone during the air battles. Then like you said, trying to bail out if the plane became crippled enough so you could even attempt a bail out.
When you read the history of all that, and realize we almost stopped the bombing because we were losing so many planes and men AND the damned Germans were able to rebuild many of the bombed factories weeks after we destroyed them. If we had not been able to pull off the Normandy invasion, the history of the world would certainly be a lot different.
Just to realize that from December 7,1941 to mid 1945 we were the major force in the total destruction of two huge militaristic powers in German and Japan. That's less than 3 years.

And our revisionist posters can fuck off.

[Van]

Sorry, Wolfie, but no, we were not the major force behind the destruction of German military power. The Soviets were. We were merely a leading part of the second, far less important front. The Soviets did the bulk of the heavy lifting in Europe.

[Wolfman]

Van--- Who supplied the Soviets? Other brave Americans, Canadians, etc. on cargo ships from North America to Murmansk provided a steady flow of war supplies to the Ruskies. And that was in spite of constant threat of U-boat wolf pack attacks on helpless convoys. The Soviets could never have done it alone. For sure if Hitler had not invaded Russia or just pushed to Moscow with winter supplies we would have been in trouble.
AND---the damned soviets didn't get involved with Japan until it was almost over.

[Van]

Yes, we helped supply the Soviets, who did the bulk of the fighting/defeating of German military power. No matter how you slice it, the Soviets took the brunt of it. The war was won on the Eastern Front, not the Western.

[mvscal]

Who supplied the Soviets?

We certainly helped but they didn't need us to defend the Soviet Union. We did provide them with the mobility to overrun Eastern Europe and Germany, though.

or just pushed to Moscow with winter supplies we would have been in trouble.

Not much point in being warmly dressed if you don't have fuel, ammunition and spare parts for vehicles. Try a clue someday.

AND---the damned soviets didn't get involved with Japan until it was almost over.

They kind of had their hands full, idiot.

[Goober McTuber]

mvscal,

Per your suggestion, I just started reading An Army at Dawn. I went through the first 60 pages last night. Very well written. I plan to also finish Day of Battle before we travel to Italy and Sicily at the end of this month. Thanks for the tips.

[Shlomart Ben Yisrael]

If it were not for the nearly continual interference the US/British air attacks had on the ability of Germany to produce and deliver war machinery and support material to the Eastern front, Ivan would have been in deep sheisse.

War production actually increased in late 44 early 45.

[mvscal]

If it were not for the nearly continual interference the US/British air attacks had on the ability of Germany to produce and deliver war machinery and support material to the Eastern front, Ivan would have been in deep sheisse.

War production actually increased in late 44 early 45.

Because the Germans didn't militarize their economy until 1944.

[dingus]

Ultimately the great contribution of the air war was the fact that by June 1944 the Luftwaffe was nearly non-existent given the losses incurred attempting to shoot down Allied aircraft. This allowed for complete control of the air by the Allies for D-day and beyond.

The way in which the air war was prosecuted, mistakes and misjudgments by Allied leadership was damn near criminal. Just to go up and fly prior to about mid 44 or so required having stones that just clanged together when you walked. My dad figured that the only way to get to 25 missions was to go up every time there was an opportunity, he took flights on crews that were short a bottom gunner for some reason. He made it to 12 before his B-17 went down January 30, 1944.

[Dr_Phibes]

That is arguably true insofar as the ground war is concerned. But I disagree on the whole. If it were not for the nearly continual interference the US/British air attacks had on the ability of Germany to produce and deliver war machinery and support material to the Eastern front, Ivan would have been in deep sheisse. The losses sustained by the Russians were staggering. It was only when the German supply lines got too long and too harried and supplies/reinforcements grew scarce that Russia was able to deliver crushing defeats (again at staggering losses).

But German supply lines weren't extended when the Western Allies were running amok in the air, that time was well passed. Western aircraft were never attacking rail targets in Poland. Russian losses were more disregard for their own manpower.
I'd look to Speer as an authority, I remember him writing the air-campaign was ineffectual in regards to production and just a nuisance in delivery.
Where it did hurt, was allocating men and weaponry to anti-aircraft defense, that might have been better employed in the east.

[Dr_Phibes]

Very slick Russian flash animation of the campaign, it drives home the sense of time and space:

http://english.pobediteli.ru/flash.html

[mvscal]

Where it did hurt, was allocating men and weaponry to anti-aircraft defense, that might have been better employed in the east.

Where it hurt was the near total destruction of their fuel production infrastructure. Sure they were cranking out FW-190s, but they didn't have the fuel to train the pilots or even keep that many of them in the air.

The success of their Winter Offensive on the West Front in 1944 was entirely predicated on captured American stocks of fuel. Needless to say, that was a pretty poor recipe for success.

[Van]

That was tremendous, Phibes.