Ray Guy is not in the HOF???

[Goober McTuber]

If you're stunned by this, you obviously don't follow pro football very closely.

[BSmack]

Guy was a badass. I'd read once where he could throw a football from one end zone to the other. Don't know if that was true, but he was a hell of an athlete. Yeah - he definitely belongs in Canton...

If he was such a great fucking athlete, how come he only punted?

Oh, and if being able to throw a football a long way could get you into the hall, Jeff George would already be there.

[mvscal]

The guy changed the game.

No, he didn't. He's not even the best punter in Raiders history.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

I'd read once where he could throw a football from one end zone to the other.

Are you sure you read that? Are you sure you didn't read...nothing?

[R-Jack]

Even as a Raider fan, I couldn't give two fucks about it.

How many folks are in the baseball HOF based on their pinch running or late inning defensive replacement prowess?

[kcdave]

The Pro Football Hall of Fame is for pro football players, coaches, owners, broadcasters and the like. Not punters.

[R-Jack]

Who cares?

Is anyone in the basketball HOF for spinning a ball on his finger?

[R-Jack]

And how many left handed single inning relievers are in the baseball HOF?

Get a grip.

[Goober McTuber]

Guy was a badass. I'd read once where he could throw a football from one end zone to the other. Don't know if that was true, but he was a hell of an athlete. Yeah - he definitely belongs in Canton...

If he was such a great fucking athlete, how come he only punted?

He wa a pretty decent defensive back at Southern Miss as well. Not that that counts towards Canton, but he was an excellent athlete.

[R-Jack]

Is a left handed single inning reliever used in every game?

Is a punter? He is only if he is needed to, just like a lhsir. If the situation doesn't call for it, he is not "playing football". He is a situational specialist, not unlike a long snapper. Do the really good long snappers belong in the Hall of Fame too? It's a legit position by your standards and they are in the game more than punters.

How about special teams wedge busters? Where's your outrage over none of them in the HOF? At least they hit people.

[stuckinia]

Is it solely SECBSHism, or did this infatuation with Ray Guy stem from his unstated love for cock?

[mvscal]

The punter is a legit, full position, and punters should be in the HOF.

That may be so, but Guy wasn't even the most dominating punter of his own era let alone the modern era of punting. How would you put Guy ahead of someone like Jerrel Wilson? Or do you even know who he is?

[Killian]

The guy changed the game.

No, he didn't. He's not even the best punter in Raiders history.

Yes, he did. He essentially invented the use of hang time as a measurable statistic and began perfecting directional punting and trying to pin a team deep in their own end long before anyone else did.

His raw numbers don't rack up with others because he was rarely in a position where he needed to just crush the football. He never had a punt returned on him in his entire career.

Him being elected to the HOF is one thing, but to say he didn't revolutionize the position is silly.

[Killian]

For a touchdown. Didn't realize I had to spell that one out for you. But good job, way to get me on not typing three words.

[mvscal]

Yes, he did.

No, he didn't and the numbers don't lie. He didn't revolutionize shit. Everything you attribute to Guy was done first and better by Wilson.

[Killian]

No, he didn't and the numbers don't lie. He didn't revolutionize shit. Everything you attribute to Guy was done first and better by Wilson.

Except the whole, pinning teams in their own territory. Wilson can't hold a candle to Guy in that regard, mainly because it wasn't done with that purpose in mind before Guy.

[mvscal]

No, he didn't and the numbers don't lie. He didn't revolutionize shit. Everything you attribute to Guy was done first and better by Wilson.

Except the whole, pinning teams in their own territory. Wilson can't hold a candle to Guy in that regard, mainly because it wasn't done with that purpose in mind before Guy.

Shut the fuck up, you clueless idiot. Jerrel Wilson created the emphasis on special teams play and field position not Ray Guy.

[Killian]

You do realize that every time you try to debate me on a point regarding football, you leave the dicusson with swollen eyes, right? Be it Tim Tebow, Drew Brees and Tom Brady, Charlie Weis's buyout, you make it painfully clear that you really have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Wilson wasn't just a punter, he was a position player as well that when he punted, tried to kick the shit out of the ball, which he did. He didn't try to pin teams back, as evident by his lack of punts inside the 20 and the amount of touchbacks he had. He had a great average, but a shitty net, once they started keeping that statistic. They started keeping that stat about three years after Guy was in the league. Mainly because he brought directional punting to the NFL.

You've already started digging, so go ahead and keep digging your hole until you finally give up. Wilson was a good player and punter, but he didn't do shit to revolutionize the position.

[mvscal]

You do realize that every time you try to debate me on a point regarding football, you leave the dicusson with swollen eyes, right?

Keep telling yourself that, you fucking idiot.

Wilson wasn't just a punter, he was a position player as well that when he punted,

22 rushing attempts in 16 years of football. Yeah....I'm sure that kept him real busy.

He didn't try to pin teams back, .

"Jerrel Wilson made other people aware of how important the kicking game was at a time when special times were not given special consideration."
--Hank Stram

And by other people, he's talking about Al Davis. Why the fuck do you think he spent a 1st round pick on a punter if nobody in the league gave a fuck about special teams and punting before Ray Guy? Ya think getting punted around the yard twice a year for over a decade by Wilson might had something to do with it?

He didn't try to pin teams back, as evident by his lack of punts inside the 20 and the amount of touchbacks he had. He had a great average, but a shitty net, once they started keeping that statistic.

They didn't start keeping those stats until Wilson's final three seasons. Think he might have been on the decline just a bit after 16 years in the league. You truly are a monumental dumbfuck.

Everything Guy did was done first by Wilson including going to Southern Miss. Guy benefited from the foundation established by Wilson.

[Killian]

If you're going to copy directly from his wikipedia page, you should scroll all the way down, you stupid fuck.

From Wilson's own mouth:

The way I attack the football, every time I hit it, I try to bust it, unless I'm around the 50. Then I hit it high.

Where again does it say that he perfected directional punting? Oh that's right, it doesn't. He tried to kick the shit out of the ball, every time.

Why don't you go ahead and talk about the rule changes in the mid 70's that changed the way punters punted the ball?

By the way, Guy didn't have the fall off in his final that Wilson did. Wilson's fall off was mainly due to the way in which he punted and the rule change implemented in 1974. Strange that his average went down steadily for 5 straight years.

Do the slightest bit of research before you pull someone's name out of your ass and start making a case for him.

[mvscal]

He tried to kick the shit out of the ball, every time.

...except when he was around the 50 and then he kicked it high. Can you even read?

Why don't you go ahead and talk about the rule changes in the mid 70's that changed the way punters punted the ball?

Gee, a couple posts ago it was Ray Guy who changed the way punters punted the ball now it's rule changes. What will you come up with next?

You claim that punting and punters were an afterthought before Ray Guy came along, yet Al Davis spent the 23rd overall pick in the draft on an afterthought.

A draft that included Joe DeLamielleure, All-American guard from Michigan State and PF HoF'er at 26th, OU All-American, CF HoF'er and 5X Pro Bowler Greg Pruitt at 30th, Jim Youngblood CF HoFer and solid 12 year pro at 42, Dan Fouts PF HoFer at 64, Leon Gray, 4X Pro Bowler, 3X All-Pro played 10 years at o. tackle, Tom Jackson soild 14 year pro etc. etfuckingcetera.

[Killian]

Thanks for playing. Let me know when you want to move the goal posts back to the original argument.

Until then, let me spell it out for you. Wilson crushed the ball. Every time. When he was at the 50, like he said, he tried to kick it high. Not toward the corner, not taking something off it to get it close to the goal line, just crushing it high, instead of deep.

Never claimed that punting or punters were an afterthought, you simple fuck. Quit putting words in my mouth and address the original point.

In 1974, the NFL changed the rules when punting that only allowed two players to release when the ball was snapped, instead of everyone. This put an emphasis on hang time, something your boy Wilson didn’t have. Take a look at his stats. As soon as that rule was in place, his net average started falling like a rock until he retired. Guy revolutionized the position because he brought length and height to his kicks, along with trying to aim the ball at the sidelines.

So go ahead and start pulling out random draft picks to try to prove God knows what. Wilson’s stats didn’t fall off because he got older; they fell off because of the rule change. Guy changed the way teams thought of punting and punters because of this rule change.

[mvscal]

Let me know when you want to move the goal posts back to the original argument.

Until then, let me spell it out for you. Wilson crushed the ball. Every time. When he was at the 50, like he said, he tried to kick it high. Not toward the corner, not taking something off it to get it close to the goal line, just crushing it high, instead of deep.

Yes, he did. He {Ray Guy} essentially invented the use of hang time as a measurable statistic...

Never claimed that punting or punters were an afterthought, you simple fuck.

Yes, you did. You claimed that he revolutionized punting and that nobody played for field position before he came along. That is your original point. The fact that it is total bullshit is proven by nothing more than the simple fact that Davis spent the 23rd overall pick on a position that was (in your opinion) totally insignificant prior to the arrival of Ray Guy.

In 1974, the NFL changed the rules when punting that only allowed two players to release when the ball was snapped, instead of everyone. This put an emphasis on hang time, something your boy Wilson didn’t have.

You just keep kicking your own on this point.

Take a look at his stats. As soon as that rule was in place, his net average started falling like a rock until he retired.

Or maybe we should take a look at his coverage units and the teams he played for during that time frame. The Chiefs were complete garbage. They were 7-30 in his last three years there. Net average is a team stat, you fucking moron.

[Killian]

So the net punting stats were the fault of the coverage unit? Typically that's also the sign of a shitty punter, out kicking his coverage. When a punter has good hang time, it allows more than just the gunners to get down there. You can keep changing your argument, and you can continue to be wrong.

You do realize there is a difference between hang time when kicking from the 50 and when kicking from your own territory, right? Of course you don't. The only time Wilson tried to use height on his punt was when he was pooching it. After the rule change, it was apparent to anyone with two firing synapses that you needed hang time on your punts. Now I can see why this point alludes you.

Go back and re-read my posts, little man. At no time did I say that teams didn't try to play for field position with punting. What I did say is that no team tried directional kicking towards the sidelines, or made a true effort to try to pin the ball as close to the goal line as possible.

You're falling in this thread quicker than Wilson's net average.

[mvscal]

So your plan is to bore everybody off the thread with a high pressure wash of bullshit and then claim victory? I don't know what your story is but you have definitely lost the plot. First Guy "revolutionized punting making hang time a measurable statistic" and then, when confronted with evidence that Wilson had been doing it before Ray Guy's balls dropped, you attempt to claim that it was, instead, rules changes that changed the punting game. You're all over the place. Just a hot mess in a sagging diaper.

Hank Stram had more football knowledge in any one of his randomly selected morning shits than you will ever manage to accumulate in your entire life and he believed that it was Wilson who opened up the possibilities in the punting game and made it a specific point of emphasis. Evidently, Al Davis agreed.

[Killian]

Do you have this had of a time in real life trying to connect two points? The rule change of 1974 had a direct impact on the kicking game. Kickers could no longer just kick the shit out of the bsll, like your boy Wilson. Point 1. Now, kickers had to keep the ball in the air longer. Guy was the first one to do this on a consistant basis. There was no stat to measure this, hence the invention of hang time as a measurable stat. Point 2. Try to connect those. I know it's hard.

Before you respond again, try doing some research and forming an opinion that you didn't pull off a Wikipedia page.

[mvscal]

Now, kickers had to keep the ball in the air longer.

I know you have a refrigerator temperature IQ, but let me help you out a bit here. When Wilson made a deliberate point of "kicking it high," it "stayed in the air longer." This was happening before the rule change and before Ray Guy was drafted.

This should help anyone able to fire three or more neurons at a time.

[Killian]

I see you intentionally left out the whole "only when he reached the 50" part. Keep on going, eventually you can connect the dots.

Waiting for Wikipedia to update?

[Terry in Crapchester]

How about special teams wedge busters? Where's your outrage over none of them in the HOF? At least they hit people.

Not a wedge buster per se, but there's a case being made for Steve Tasker to make the HOF. And he certainly wouldn't be going in based on what he did as a WR.

If memory serves, and I could be wrong about this, I don't think they selected a Pro Bowl special teamer before Tasker, so at least in that sense, he could have revolutionized the game.

How high were those punts Terry?

Earth to KC Scott.

I know there aren't a bunch of ND fans in here, but you do know that Killian and I are not the same person. Right?

More dollars than sense, apparently.

[mvscal]

but there's a case being made for Steve Tasker to make the HOF.

You can "make a case" for a ham sandwich. That doesn't mean it's good case or even one worth a millisecond of serious consideration.

[Screw_Michigan]

So your plan is to bore everybody off the thread with a high pressure wash of bullshit and then claim victory?

He does this regularly in the BTPCFB forum, when he doesn't run himself for the board being "too racist."

Have you been asleep at the wheel/

[Killian]

So your plan is to bore everybody off the thread with a high pressure wash of bullshit and then claim victory?

He does this regularly in the BTPCFB forum, when he doesn't run himself for the board being "too racist."

Have you been asleep at the wheel/

Wow, responding to shit that's two months old? Are you that board at your shitty job or did you get fired again? And I keep telling you to update your spreadsheet, I never said the board was too racist.

[poptart]

Guy wasn't even the most dominating punter of his own era let alone the modern era of punting. How would you put Guy ahead of someone like Jerrel Wilson? Or do you even know who he is?

Well, it's interesting that one of the other "more dominant punters" wasn't selected by media and league personnel when the league's 75th Anniversary Team was named.

It was Ray Guy.


He as a great player -- and he was an important contributor on three Super Bowl winning teams.


Ray Guy should have been in the HoF a long time ago.

[mvscal]

He isn't even the best punter in Raider history.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

TEEEEEEEEEEEBOWWWWWWWW!!

Remember that? Seriously, just shut the fuck up. You lost all credibility when it comes to football discussions. Stick to what you can wrap your meathead around: anger and race-baiting. Or better yet, throw on your apron and get in the kitchen with the rest of the women.

[poptart]

He's IN now.

RACK!


Long overdue.