Pat Tillman

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:00 pm

Pat Tillman.

He walked away from 3.6 million.
He signed up to serve his country.
He went to Afghanistan with his brother.
While he was moving through a canyon, fellow Americans shot him to pieces.

The day afterward, they burned his uniform and body armor.

For weeks afterward, military officials lied and said Pat was killed by enemy fire.

They staged a televised memorial service, and ran it counter to the shameful Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

Weeks after that, Tillman's parents finally got the truth, after they had to demand an investigation.

Pretty inspiring, huh?

Rack Tillman.

FUCK the assholes who lied about his death - and worse, used the man's sacrifice to advance their political agenda. These assholes are nothing less than traitors - traitors to American who serve their country, traitors to decency, traitors to honor.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:09 pm

I guess you're good with how they did this guy. I wonder why? What the fuck are you thinking?

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:11 pm

PSUFAN wrote:What the fuck are you thinking?

Everything George Dubya Bush does is wonderful. He always has mvscal's best interests in mind.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:22 pm

I guess you still don't get it.

he fucked up and got himself killed by our own. It can happen to the best of them. There's your fucking truth. Feel better now?

I suppose when your son is killed in service, that you'll be OK when they lie to you about the manner of his death until they can wring a good TV moment out of it.

Who you calling a sheep?

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:28 pm

I suppose when your son is killed in service, that you'll be OK when they lie to you about the manner of his death until they can wring a good TV moment out of it.

If those damn so-called "journalists" hadn't been so worried about ferreting out the truth none of this would have happened. They need to get back to reporting whatever is told to them.

Sin,

Dr. Detroit

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:45 pm

I don't get the "lie" angle on this. Someone care to explain it?

I recall the Army telling us right up front that they weren't sure how he was killed. And following the investigation we were told then that he was killed by friendly fire.

Where's the lie?

BTW - rather humorous how some of these twerps completely take comments out of context ('sup B and Fester).

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:55 pm

Mary Tillman wrote:"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did. The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

DrDetroit wrote:I recall

I don't think you do.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:59 pm

how comforted would you be by "the truth"?

This still eludes you. My outrage, and that of Tillman's parents, has to do with the use they made of his death - how they covered up the actual manner of his death so that they could derive political gain.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:59 pm

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:I suppose when your son is killed in service, that you'll be OK when they lie to you about the manner of his death until they can wring a good TV moment out of it.
He was killed in the line of duty. That's all you or anyone else who wasn't there needs to know.

If your son was gutshot, had his legs blown off and screamed in agony for the hour and a half it took him to die, how comforted would you be by "the truth"? Or would be better to hear that it was quick and he didn't suffer?

Save your bullshit answer.

Who you calling a sheep?
That would be you. You're the idiot being manipulated by old news here.

RACK mvscal.

And when they run, I've heard they sing.

"If I die in combat zone
Box me up and send me home
Pin my medals upon my chest
Tell my mom I did my best "

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:01 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
how comforted would you be by "the truth"?
My outrage

Is phony, contrived and as politically motivated as the alleged motivations of those to whom your ire is directed.

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:01 pm

Tom In VA wrote:And when they run, I've heard they sing.

"If I die in combat zone
Box me up and send me home
Pin my medals upon my chest
Tell my mom I did my best "

This has nothing to do with the inward facing military culture. The soldier may be more than happy to be a pawn of our government, but when the government faces out to the public and lies, then there's a problem.

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:04 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:And when they run, I've heard they sing.

"If I die in combat zone
Box me up and send me home
Pin my medals upon my chest
Tell my mom I did my best "
This has nothing to do with the inward facing military culture. The soldier may be more than happy to be a pawn of our government, but when the government faces out to the public and lies, then there's a problem.

No the point is, mvscal is right on the money. Maybe because he was actually involved before. Since I was not, I can only assume he refers to the fact most soldiers just want their parents and loved ones to remember them fondly and not hear the gory details about how they died, suffered, and endured tremendous amounts of pain.
Which would cause discomfort for the families.

Maybe soldiers' selflessness just can't be understood by the selfish benefactors of their sacrifice.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:06 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:
how comforted would you be by "the truth"?
My outrage
Is phony, contrived and as politically motivated as the alleged motivations of those to whom your ire is directed.

Care to explain your reasoning?

Tom: they hushed up the manner of his death, made up some bullshit and fed it to the public - and the family - and then had to be prompted by an investigation to tell the family what really happened...after they made a televised spectacle of the thing.

That doesn't outrage you? What about the burning of his uniform and gear? They burned his shit so they could cover a track of bullshit.

You're inspired by this?

Bizzarofelice · Post by **Bizzarofelice** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:07 pm

Tom In VA wrote:Maybe soldiers' selflessness just can't be understood by the selfish benefactors of their sacrifice.

So not only lying about a soldier's death, but trumping up their demise to further push out that "honorable discharge from this planet" is a legit thing for the government to do?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:09 pm

PSUFAN wrote: You're inspired by this?

No I'm inspired by Tillman.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:12 pm

Who gets to decide what has happened here: mvscal, or the Tillmans?

His mother:

"Pat had high ideals about the country, that's why he did what he did. The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect,"

"The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting,"

his father:

"They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realised that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a hand basket if the truth about the death got out. They blew up their poster boy,"

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:15 pm

Tom In VA wrote:
PSUFAN wrote: You're inspired by this?
No I'm inspired by Tillman.

If you're inspired by Tillman...why are you comfortable with the fact that they lied about how he died?

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:18 pm

PSUFAN wrote:
how comforted would you be by "the truth"?
This still eludes you. My outrage, and that of Tillman's parents, has to do with the use they made of his death - how they covered up the actual manner of his death so that they could derive political gain.

You're outraged?? Don't color me impressed.

You ran this crap before...

My outrage, and that of Tillman's parents, has to do with the use they made of his death - how they covered up the actual manner of his death so that they could derive political gain.

Who was trying to derive political gain?

And in what form?

Make shit up, much?

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:19 pm

I see a lot of "they" being tossed around...looks like someone is trying to bilk someone else ("they") out of some cash.

DrDetroit · Post by **DrDetroit** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:20 pm

Kinda disappointing that Tillman's old man would be disparaging the guys that Tillman gave his life up for to fight alongside of... :roll:

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:20 pm

Bizzarofelice wrote:
Tom In VA wrote:Maybe soldiers' selflessness just can't be understood by the selfish benefactors of their sacrifice.
So not only lying about a soldier's death, but trumping up their demise to further push out that "honorable discharge from this planet" is a legit thing for the government to do?

In the course of doing his duty he was in a firefight. He acted in a heroic manner, i.e. ... continued to perform his duty.

"He ordered his team to dismount and then maneuvered the Rangers up a hill near the enemy's location," the release said. "As they crested the hill, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and personally provided suppressive fire. . . . Tillman's voice was heard issuing commands to take the fight to the enemy forces."

"Army records show Tillman fought bravely during his final battle. He followed orders, never wavered and at one stage proposed discarding his heavy body armor, apparently because he wanted to charge a distant ridge occupied by the enemy, an idea his immediate superior rejected, witness statements show.

But the Army's published account not only withheld all evidence of fratricide, but also exaggerated Tillman's role and stripped his actions of their context. Tillman was not one of the senior commanders on the scene -- he directed only himself, one other Ranger and an Afghan militiaman, under supervision from others. And witness statements in the Army's files at the time of the news release describe Tillman's voice ringing out on the battlefield mainly in a desperate effort, joined by other Rangers on his ridge, to warn comrades to stop shooting at their own men. "

I think the primary disconnect and assumption that lies were told as opposed to embellishment erring on the side of discretion, is the primary fact the only people who understand the way things operate during a firefight. Are the people that are in them.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:20 pm

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:22 pm

Tillman gave up his life so that they could lie about the manner of his death? Not buying it.

tough love · Post by **tough love** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:24 pm

Pat Tillman's heroic story needs no spin

BY ANN KILLION

Knight Ridder Newspapers

SAN JOSE, Calif. - (KRT) - The sad thing is that nobody needed to spin Pat Tillman's story to make him a hero.

He was already a hero.
He was a hero before he set foot in Afghanistan. Before he was tragically killed
Before he became a patriotic symbol, a recruiting instrument, a political pawn.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercuryn ... 737026.htm

I agree that getting murdered by your own idiots is tragically hip, but you PUglies tend to cheapen the HERO thang ('sup Q) way too much.

I'm thinking, Chump, may be a more accurate handle for a sorry clone who died somewhat tragically.
If anything was taugh by T's needless death, it's that stupid is what stupid does.

Given the state of Bu$h America, it's no surprise that idiocy is now being confused for heroism.

WHEN WILL THEY EVER LEARN

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:27 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Tillman gave up his life so that they could lie about the manner of his death? Not buying it.

Fallacious syntax

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:32 pm

Let's try it this way, rozy.

Do you think Pat Tillman sacrificed his life and freedom for the kind of folks who would lie to his parents and the public about how he died, and use the fabricated story to help them bump Abu Graib off the front page?

Somehow, I doubt it.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:39 pm

I don't think anything like that EVER crossed his mind or concern.

But, to properly answer your modified question (since the first one was doomed by wording), and to really fuel this fire...

Abso

Motherfucking

Lutely

This is war. It ain't pretty. Never was. Never will be.

Smackie Chan · Post by **Smackie Chan** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:42 pm

Just to make sure I'm clear about the lessons I should take away from reading this thread, let me summarize:

1) If the Republican-controlled Federal government lies to the American public, we can assume it's in our best interest for them to do so, since they know best, and we can't handle the truth.

2) If the media reports what isn't true, it's because it's not their job to report what's true, and if they investigate to uncover the truth, it's evidence that they're just a bunch of anti-American liberals.

3) Family members of soldiers killed in action would rather be lied to than to have the government/military level with them.

4) There's nothing wrong with the government lying or withholding truth, because we can rest assured that they would never do so simply to promote a political agenda. But we, the American public, should express outrage and indignation when members of the liberal media expose them, because they do so only to promote their political agendas.

Gotcha.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:46 pm

Chanman pretty well summed up every political post in the history of this board.

ALWAYS trust the American government.

Sincerely,
The Indians

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:49 pm

This is war. It ain't pretty. Never was. Never will be.

That's not the point. The point is that they made up a story about how he died. They hushed up the eyewitnesses. They destroyed his uniform and gear, for Pete's sake, and it took an investigation for his parents to get a straight account (still only partial) of what really happened.

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:49 pm

And?

It IS the point.

Uncle Fester · Post by **Uncle Fester** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:50 pm

Smackie:

You forgot the part about when the Pres is getting a blow job from a groupie it's worth $50 million to "get to the bottom of it."

You know, all the "He LIED under oath" bullshit that makes the vein in Dr. Detroit's forehead start to pulsate.

The whole Tillman thing reminds me of a MASH episode:

"GENERAL IRON GUTS KELLY WILL HAVE A GLORIOUS, ALL-AMERICAN STAR SPANGLED DEATH!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And rockets, I want plenty of rockets..."

1tnacU · Post by **1tnacU** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:50 pm

rozy wrote:Abso

Motherfucking

Lutely.

We'll... hello there, Mr Troller...

rozy · Post by **rozy** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:52 pm

1tnacU wrote:
rozy wrote:Abso

Motherfucking

Lutely.

We'll... hello there, Mr Troller...

It was the period at the end of lutely, right?

Damn

Smackie Chan · Post by **Smackie Chan** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:53 pm

Uncle Fester wrote:Smackie:

You forgot the part about when the Pres is getting a blow job from a groupie it's worth $50 million to "get to the bottom of it."

You know, all the "He LIED under oath" bullshit that makes the vein in Dr. Detroit's forehead start to pulsate.

The whole Tillman thing reminds me of a MASH episode:

"GENERAL IRON GUTS KELLY WILL HAVE A GLORIOUS, ALL-AMERICAN STAR SPANGLED DEATH!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And rockets, I want plenty of rockets..."

It's not that I forgot about it. It's simply a case of boiling down the lessons from this thread, and Bubba hadn't come into play, so to speak. Try to stay focused, mmkay?

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:53 pm

PSUFAN wrote:Let's try it this way, rozy.

Do you think Pat Tillman sacrificed his life and freedom for the kind of folks who would lie to his parents and the public about how he died, and use the fabricated story to help them bump Abu Graib off the front page?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Maybe if the people whose freedom he was protecting would have focused on the efforts of the men Pat Tillman was like rather than writing about Abu Graib ...... SOLELY FOR COMPETITIVE EDGE AS IT PERTAINS TO MAKING MONEY, there would be no need for the military to toot it's own horn and say ....

"Hey look, a lot of people are dying over here .... look at what happened to a man that left a cushy lifestyle because he BELIEVES and has FAITH, and WANTS TO CONTRIBUTE.". Pat Tillman did nothing Farmboy Joe Snuffy or Inner City Tyrone, or Jose from the Barrio don't do. The problem is, this warped culture pushed out by the media doesn't pay any attention to the average Joe Snuffy out there.

The Pat Tillman story, is a beautiful story of selflessness, self discipline, honor and courage. Rather than be inspired by it the media and the people today would much rather look for any loophole and any excuse to justify their lack of the qualities and attributes Pat Tillman and his comrades manifest.

The media doesn't give a shit about THE TRUTH. They don't want you to BELIEVE, or HAVE FAITH in anything but what they tell you. Because when they achieve that, they can go and strong arm companies to pay out the ass for 30 second soundbites with the claim "LOOK AT THE POWER AND REACH WE HAVE. PAY US MONEY TO SAY YOUR NAME".

Tom In VA · Post by **Tom In VA** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:56 pm

Smackie Chan wrote: 3) Family members of soldiers killed in action would rather be lied to than to have the government/military level with them.

I think it's more along the lines of what the dead soldier, airman, sailor or marine would have. As mvscal said, to spare the family the gory details and account of their suffering.

PSUFAN · Post by **PSUFAN** » Thu May 26, 2005 4:58 pm

The media doesn't give a shit about THE TRUTH.

Nor do Tillman's parents. Actually, apparently they do. Wouldn't you? You see nothing wrong with lying to them about the manner of his death?

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:04 pm

Don't worry about it, PSU.

The government lying as a matter of routine policy isn't a HUGE red flag, or anything.

But remember, if the media reports any of the mistruths the government tells, it's the media's fault for lying.

False patriotism is a symptom of a small penis. Buncha little-dicked fuckers up in here.

RadioFan · Post by **RadioFan** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:09 pm

mvscal wrote:
PSUFAN wrote:his father:

"They purposely interfered with the investigation, they covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realised that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a hand basket if the truth about the death got out. They blew up their poster boy,"
How the fuck would he know?

"In the case of the death of Corporal Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family," Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks told the Post. "For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes."

Why the apology from the general?