88 Went To Mass Today

[Mikey]

Sam, listen to Jethro Tull's "Wind Up". Or just google the lyrics.

Also "My God" and "Hymm 43" from the same album.

George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" could be interpreted as being Christian, Gaudiya Vaisnavite (Hare Krisha), or both.
Pretty cool song either way.

[Van]

It sounds like you're totally discouraged away from the concept of faith in God, and that's a shame.

Not at all. I'm only discouraged over the odds of my ever receiving it. I have no doubt that others have it.

Maybe if you truly wish to find faith, it will find you when you aren't looking for it.

Yep, that's what I figger too. In fact, I've pretty much resigned myself to it. Working at it isn't going to accomplish anything. It'll just have to happen, completely out of the blue. I won't be able to predict it.

Then again, it may happen that the faith I finally gain is in atheism. That's as likely as anything else for me.

Just one more thing: you sometimes make demands of God, like you think you are entitled to force him to appear to you directly.

Yep. Well, sort of. I don't feel entitled to force him into anything, but I do feel entitled to a visit from him. Why shouldn't I?

Maybe you're making those demands in jest,

Nope.

but I have a feeling there's a little genuine feeling behind them.

Yep, and more than a little.

I'd like you to know that if God were so weak that you, a mere human, could order him around... I'd probably think twice about worshiping him.

I see it the other way. I'm not ordering him around, but if He is so callous, lazy and egomanical that he can't even be arsed to show himself to his own children, then he isn't worth seeking out and worshipping.

See, I don't need Shawn Kemp as my spiritual daddy. I need someone who gives enough of a crap about me to show up for more than my basic creation.

This aloof act of His serves fuckall purpose. He could convert every last soul on Earth, and He could turn this whole world into that delicious triangular space at the top of Jessica Alba's thighs, and what's he do? He lets us sit in darkness and slaughter ourselves while Simon Cowell grows ever more smug and snarky.

To me, that's a God who isn't worth worshipping.

[War Wagon]

My only gripe with Catholics in particular (other than my opinion that the whole Jesus thing is hokey) is their funeral service. Friend of mine from high school died a few years ago. Didn't even know he was Catholic 'til I saw where the service was going to be. I needed two knee replacements afterwards! I never knelt down so many times in my life.

Just attended an uncles funeral mass last Saturday at an old school Catholic church out in the country and that's what I was expecting. The whole 'stand, sit, kneel' routine. But that service was over in about 45 minutes and I didn't have to kneel once. I think the priest knew the Final Four was coming on later and some of us had a two hour drive back home.

Catholics are cool like that.

[poptart]

so basically, if someone say's he's the christ, and another says sure, then he actually is the christ? so that means david koresh was the real deal, eh. retard.

I'd recommend you take a nap.



Dins, about your Heaven's Gate and Jonestown links, I've repeatedly given the DISTINCT difference between those people and the 12 apostles and yet people here still continue to compare them.
I'll credit mvscal for recognizing the difference, although his "logic" in waving off the significance of their actions is extremely dubious.

Last time, the Heaven's and Jonestown people went to their deaths for something they believed to be the truth.
The 12 apostles, if Jesus didn't rise, KNEW he didn't rise, and they went to their deaths in support of what they KNEW to be a fraud.

Oh well.

My overriding thoughts?

'This is insane. All this granduer, all this money spent...for what? This was money spent that should've gone instead to feeding the poor. It should've gone to building schools and hospitals.

That's true, Van.

Christians have lost their way and that is why they find themselves in dire straits.
They've lost hold of the Covenant and are holding to other things ... the buildings, their programs, their ideologies, their legalism, etc.
The Bible (and history) shows us that when people lose hold of God's simple Covenent, they become colonized.
Christians are definitely on that road.

Those in Mark's upper room held to ONE thing - Jesus is the Christ.
They had simple unity in THE COVENANT.
And they conquored the world with that, because it's the ONLY thing that can break the spiritual darkness that hold people and will undoubtedly take them into suffering, hardship and eternal failure.

[Van]

Well, no, they conquered parts of the world not so much with the covenant but with bloodshed. Also, in terms of the covenant, the overwhelming majority of the world's population remains unconquered. More than two out of every three people on this planet are not Christians, and there are nearly as many Muslims as Christians. Of those that claim to be Christians, the vast majority are Christian in name only.

[PSUFAN]

As someone said above...people turn themselves into pretzels over religion because...they are afraid.

Why is it that a life of many years - sentience amidst such richness and squalor as the world may offer - is not enough, somehow? People just want more, apparently...

Yet it seems to me that a life lived fully, with full thought given it as it passes, not fearful of the end of days as it may come...that is a life that can feel infinite. Perhaps a life spent preparing or cowering for what may follow it is a life wasted...or frittered away with too much inward, even selfish focus.

Perhaps not. But what exactly is it that makes you think you're so special that you should be rewarded for being a decent person? Shouldn't you live decently no matter what follows life, and not expect reward or a medal?

[poptart]

Shouldn't you live decently no matter what follows life, and not expect reward or a medal?

Actually we should try to fuck people so that we can get over.

No?

[Van]

Sorta shoots down Rog's idea that God is the reason for man having a conscience, when devout atheists can also have a conscience.

[PSUFAN]

Well, I say no, poppy - and I do so without expectation of reward or even thanks. I just feel it's good to be decent and try to do right by folks. That's how I want to live, that's how I want my kids to live, that's what I expect of others, even if in vain.

[Van]

Well, I say no, poppy - and I do so without expectation of reward or even thanks. I just feel it's good to be decent and try to do right by folks. That's how I want to live, that's how I want my kids to live, that's what I expect of others, even if in vain.

Ditto, dog. Especially where the stewardship of message boards is concerned.

-Your pal Otis

[PSUFAN]

Most people are weak - and so they take comfort in opiates of various kinds...religion famously and prominently among them.

But humans are not more than animals - and very possibly not the wisest or highest of that number, to boot. Why does our genus imagine that we are above a hawk or an eagle, who live as lords of their realms, and function in perfect balance of strife atop them?

Why should an eagle, who will never know word one about Jesus or bin Laden or J Alba or the moralizing of some craven white-haired kid-diddling ex-nazi dipshit Pope, not be eligible for eternal bliss, if we are? I just find it horribly selfish, provincial, ethnocentric, naive...to assume we are the greatest, and somehow set above other animals or the Earth itself, laden with expectation of a perfect, eternal afterlife.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Don't you think worshiping a guy is a little...gay? Give me a Jane. I'll worship a Jane.

[Van]

pop, KC kinda makes a really good point there. The Bible's accounting of the apostles' silly story is all you have to go on.

I once had a brochure for a Ford truck that promised a highway mileage average of 23 MPG, which was supposed to include lows of 18 mpg and highs of 27 mpg. Well, guess what? The brochure was way wrong.

God's brochure seems to have been written by people with a writing ability somewhere on the level of the team behind The Horse Whisperers, and their little screed has all the credibility of something penned by Trey Parker...and that book is your entire proof.

[mvscal]

Shouldn't you live decently no matter what follows life, and not expect reward or a medal?

Actually we should try to fuck people so that we can get over.

Or maybe how you behave without promises of eternal paradise or threats of eternal damnation is the true test of character.

Is your so called faith in God the only thing preventing you from running amok?

[mvscal]

devout atheists

:?

[Goober McTuber]

Sam, listen to Jethro Tull's "Wind Up". Or just google the lyrics.

Also "My God" and "Hymm 43" from the same album.

George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" could be interpreted as being Christian, Gaudiya Vaisnavite (Hare Krisha), or both.
Pretty cool song either way.

Marty's right about you, you know?

[poptart]

pop, KC kinda makes a really good point there. The Bible's accounting of the apostles' silly story is all you have to go on.

You don't have to believe it and I'm not here to make you believe it.
I'm just testifying to it because it is real to me.

The Bible is centered on the spiritual world and as I noted, it is a movement within your spirit which leads you to realize that Christ is the only Truth.

The "Yeah, what about THIS?" questions are endless and a satisfying answer won't be found seeking within the physical world.

Is your so called faith in God the only thing preventing you from running amok?

Everyone runs amok.

And people are all lying.

People are all anxious, desperate, and suffering in many different ways.

They just go to great lengths to hide it,

And they go to great lengths to hide their true nature.

[Mikey]

Sam, listen to Jethro Tull's "Wind Up". Or just google the lyrics.

Also "My God" and "Hymm 43" from the same album.

George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" could be interpreted as being Christian, Gaudiya Vaisnavite (Hare Krisha), or both.
Pretty cool song either way.

Marty's right about you, you know?

Never denied it, did I?

You, on the other hand, seem to be intent on deluding youself into believing that you have any sort of redeeming qualities at all.

[Van]

Nah, he found it scribbled in chili - or something - on Rumplewife's inner tube.

[PSUFAN]

pop, I'm not so sure about that. I think there are a lot of folks out there who, while flawed, try to live decently and try to maintain their communities and society. I think there is still some civic pride and ability throughout most of our nation that makes life here pretty comfortable, for the most part.

I think teabagged folks have soured a lot of weak folks to the extent that they imagine life here is a living misery, tottering on the brink of utter ruin. This has them clinging ever the tighter to your expectations of the afterlife - it has them checking out on life and society in any positive sense.

The view that EVERYONE ELSE is base and depraved and godless is really a result of feeling disassociated with what is going on around you. It seems the be the first tenet of organized religion - to point fingers elsewhere at the doomed that surround the few chosen - the ones that REALLY understand.

To me, it just seems like a childish tantrum - and not reflective of what I personally see in evidence around me. Of course, I actually live here in America, so...


Get it together, weak ones. Suck it up, Afterlife Pussies.

[Tom In VA]

God Bless you guys, great read so far. I have faith that each of you believes you are posting the truth.

That's spectacular. Such a diverse group, gathered together, solving the puzzles that has haunted humanity since - recorded history.

And to be able to chalk it up to "weakness" and lack of intelligence, when there is so much evidence to the contrary, truly a courageoues thing to do on an internet messageboard.

It's about as futile as a human being, defending God.


I wish peace, contentment, usefulness, and upon your houses.


Let us Pray.

[Dr_Phibes]

You've been fairly restrained in this thread Tom - RACK you, by the way. Now quick, ditch the priest, ditch the Imam, call your lawyer, he'll tell what's up. Welcome to your new liberal life, free of bureaucratic bumbling, paedophilia, ignorance, racism and warfare.

[Van]

Tom, read my little two-word missive at the very top of this page, beneath the board's logo.

[PSUFAN]

bureaucratic bumbling, paedophilia, ignorance, racism and warfare.

Now that you mention it, how much of that shit can be sourced to idiots fucking around with their wonderful organized religion? A good bit, my friend.

[M Club]

so basically, if someone say's he's the christ, and another says sure, then he actually is the christ? so that means david koresh was the real deal, eh. retard.

I'd recommend you take a nap.

oh look, your faith can't even withstand even a single question. i'll eventually take the same dirt nap your jesus has been enjoying for the past 2000 years.

[PSUFAN]

This thread is reminding me of the old days - RtS and pp and all.

[Dr_Phibes]

Now that you mention it, how much of that shit can be sourced to idiots fucking around with their wonderful organized religion? A good bit, my friend.

Abuse from the top of mass, organised movements are found in everything, everywhere. Then you have a problem with hierarchical structures in society, not religion. Not sure what you can do about that. The old adage that religious distress is a manifestation of human distress holds true, you're just being obnoxious and condescending. The institution operates in and reflects it's environment, how is this not a fact?

[Van]

Phibes, the environment typically doesn't promote the idea of middle-aged men being 'married' to a man who died two thousand years ago. Then, on top of that, the environment typically doesn't forbid those same men from having any physical contact with women before sending them out to work in close quarters with worshipful, vulnerable children.

Yeah, there's a bit of a disconnect between society-at-large and the reality of church doctrine.

[R-Jack]

Sooooooooooooooo

We got this religion thing figured out yet?

[Dr_Phibes]

Then, on top of that, the environment typically doesn't forbid those same men from having any physical contact with women before sending them out to work in close quarters with worshipful, vulnerable children.

Yeah, there's a bit of a disconnect between society-at-large and the reality of church doctrine.

So become an Anglican

[War Wagon]

This thread is reminding me of the old days

I'll presume you were just as clueless in these 'old days'.

Not a presumption, actually.

You try to associate Christian motives with and only with the afterlife when it's always been and always will be about living life today.

You try to lump religions, all religions, together like a box of used Kleenix... with particular venom towards Catholics.

I reckon that all religions are a means to an end.

[War Wagon]

Sooooooooooooooo

We got this religion thing figured out yet?

Not quite... give us another 2,000 years.

[PSUFAN]

it's always been and always will be about living life today.

How so? Please explain.

As for Catholics - did you fucking read a word I wrote? I have no beef with them - I have a beef with the disgustingly rotten organization they are misled by. Don't you? Why wouldn't you?

[poptart]

88, being a lawyer, you are a student of human behavior.
You know it very well.

Just to note, the 12 apostles willingly and individually went to deaths such as ... crucifixion, stoning, sword, crucifixion upside down, etc.


When Jesus was taken for trial and was to be executed, the apostles fled, gave up on it, and hid.
It is noted in Scripture how they tossed it in and didn't believe in Jesus.

Peter denied Jesus three times and then departed.
They all dispersed.

A short time later Peter was boldly and steadfastly proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ.
To the point that he accepted crucifixion.

They had a striking and powerful change of view - for some reason.

Now we could go down the path that you put up for consideration.
Someone took the body of Jesus.
The apostles were told that the tomb was empty.
They again believed in Jesus.

They would not imagine just what you've said - that someone had just taken the body?

With the manner in which they had given up on Jesus, someone merely informing them that the tomb was empty would not be nearly enough to motivate them ALL to individually and willingly go to those deaths.

It would take something much more compelling than that, imo.

I find no way to logically conclude that these people were deceived.
If you do, that is fine.
We all have freedom to make our own judgement.

[PSUFAN]

Pardon, but if you take what has been written about the apostles in your King James as...well, gospel, well...I differ there.

I can accept a good deal of the New Testament as some really good stuff - allegory, but good nonetheless.

What's the difference, if you're getting the general message?

I can see people accepting faith because they have felt a presence, essentially saying, "I AM HERE". Basing faith on the endlessly redone accounts of what the apostles did/said...that seems strange to me.

Since we don't see folks emerging from their tombs risen, isn't it clear that what we have here is a parable?

[poptart]

I can see people accepting faith because they have felt a presence, essentially saying, "I AM HERE". Basing faith on the endlessly redone accounts of what the apostles did/said...that seems strange to me.

You are right.
I went to this discussion because I was asked earlier about evidence, and I consider the behavior of the apostles to be powerful evidence of the reality of Christ.
The behavior of the apostles is not going to necessarily persuade someone now to accept that Jesus is the Christ.

As I said to Van earlier, it takes (and we are told so in Scripture) a moving of a person's heart and spirit, initiated by God, to do that.

Peter was the first to recognize that Jesus is the Christ, and Jesus told him he is blessed because flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, but his Father in Heaven had revealed it to him.


I would say, however, that if we take a step to soften our heart and seek to really know if Christ is real, He has a way of then making it known to us.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

Van,

DId you ever try to read C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity?

I have never heard of the book you and Christy mentioned.

I respect you because you need to to wrap your intellect/mind around the existence of any God, let alone the God of Abraham.

The forward of that book is enough for discussion for 50 pages here.

Try it. It is tough. But I know you are up to the challenge. Don't give up yet.

You are far too good of a person.

Scott

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

The 12 apostles, if Jesus didn't rise, KNEW he didn't rise, and they went to their deaths in support of what they KNEW to be a fraud.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning, pop.

Just for shits and giggles, assume that Jesus didn't rise. Assume that someone (or more likely some ones) moved the rock sealing his tomb sometime in the night after he was entombed and hauled his body away (maybe to defile it or to honor it - the motive for moving the body isn't particularly important to the question I am going to ask). If the apostles didn't participate in the body snatching and no one would own up to it, what would makle the apostles KNOW that Jesus didn't rise? I submit that it is entirely possible that in that circumstance, the 12 apostles could have concluded, accepted and/or believed 100% based on faith that Jesus did in fact rise, and therefore went to their deaths believing in something that was false? And that the 12 apostles cannot therefore be differentiated from the Heaven's Gate crowd and muslim suicide bombers.

I'll boil it down for you: How can anyone honestly and fairly reach any conclusions about the apostles' knowledge regarding the supposed resurrection of Jesus when no one knows shit about what the apostles knew about it?

88,

I have no clue about what you know about The Bible in general. or whether or not you consider everything total crap.

But do you not know about all the Old testament stuff that talks about a Jewish messiah, that will be accused by the leaders during his time, being crucified on a cross, betrayed by a freind, etc.........?


Jesus TOLD them what was going to happen, as did Isaiah, Ezekiel, heck, get a Bible with a concordance, and look it up.

My favorite song from The Messiah, is called "I KnowThat My Reedemer Liveth". It's a soprano ariah. The words come from, of all Old Testament books.....Job. I have no clue if you know about Job. In a nutshell, he was a great worshipper of God, obeyed, etc. But Satan talked with God and said,"Take away your protection from him, let me take all away, and he will curse Your name". So.. God let it happen. NOT fair, I agree, but after everything was gone, and Job was sitting on top of pile of garbage, that used to be his riches, he told his friends this: "I know that my Redeemer lives, and on the last day, I will see him stand, in my own flesh, upon the Earth. " But Job still asked God..."WHY!!!!". God answered..........

"Where were you, when I made the Earth, the Moon,,,,,,etc...." It goes on for quite a while, to put Job in his place for asking "Why?"

Job finally said, as have I, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord".

It's REEEEEEEAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLYYYYYYY hard to get that lesson, and to that point. But I have learned a few things in my life, two of which are: A. There is a God. and B. I am not Him.

Powerful stuff. I have had much of my life taken away, but like Job, I say this ...

When I die, it may be easy or horrific, but I will die knowing, not thinking, KNOWING, that My Redeemer lives, and He died for me, and that I will live forever, in a place where His will is done, not mine.

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

88, being a lawyer, you are a student of human behavior.
You know it very well.

Just to note, the 12 apostles willingly and individually went to deaths such as ... crucifixion, stoning, sword, crucifixion upside down, etc.


When Jesus was taken for trial and was to be executed, the apostles fled, gave up on it, and hid.
It is noted in Scripture how they tossed it in and didn't believe in Jesus.

Peter denied Jesus three times and then departed.
They all dispersed.

A short time later Peter was boldly and steadfastly proclaiming that Jesus is the Christ.
To the point that he accepted crucifixion.

They had a striking and powerful change of view - for some reason.

Now we could go down the path that you put up for consideration.
Someone took the body of Jesus.
The apostles were told that the tomb was empty.
They again believed in Jesus.

They would not imagine just what you've said - that someone had just taken the body?

With the manner in which they had given up on Jesus, someone merely informing them that the tomb was empty would not be nearly enough to motivate them ALL to individually and willingly go to those deaths.

It would take something much more compelling than that, imo.

I find no way to logically conclude that these people were deceived.
If you do, that is fine.
We all have freedom to make our own judgement.

Sorry, but it takes a LOT of time to read of all this thread. But I must say this about Pop's post and other saying "What if" His body was just taken away by Romans, or whoever.

If I was one those that had stolen Jesus' body, and KNEW about it, and then these supossed nut job's said he was resurrected, why didn't they bring His body and out and go "SEE!!!!!! You bunch of boobs!!!!! Here is the body! You were lied to!'

Especially when the Christian movement started taking off. If you were a Roman, or a Hebrew leader, wouldn't you have done that?

[Roger_the_Shrubber]

2. Maybe more important is what we see when the first person makes the realization that Jesus is the Christ - this is recorded in Matthew 16, where Peter confesses that He knows that Jesus is the Christ.
When Peter makes the realization, Jesus then says ...

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona (Peter): for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

so basically, if someone say's he's the christ, and another says sure, then he actually is the christ? so that means david koresh was the real deal, eh. retard.

Finally getting to this.

MClub, The Old Testament propheseid that a member of the house of David would become born by God through a woman, and be God on Earth....man and God at the same time, and then be betrayed be one of his own, and then his blood would wash away and save all that beleived in Him. It was also said that it would occur on the same day that Pass Over would happen. Ever watched the movie The Ten Commandments? God sent moses to Egypt to tell Phaoroah(Ramsees II) to let the Nation of Jews that were enslaved, to let them go. Plauges, etc., and then Moses said to Ramses,"the next curse you say, will be upon Egypt, not The Jews". Of course, Ramses said, "Kill all the firstborn". So, all the firstborn of Egypt were to die. God told Moses to tell the people, "Kill a lamb, and mark the blood upon the posts and lintels of your doors, and the Angel of death will pas you by." A sheep being the meekest and most innocent of all creatures. So, it happened, and those marked with blood, were saved from death, and were set free.

Fast forward 2000 years or so, and Jesus became the sacrifice. He was crucified ON passover, his blood washing us and saving us from not death only. but from all of our sins since He was the Son of God, sent down to do just that...........die for us. Grace means "undeserved favor". We did not, and still do, not deserve what He did and became,... the sacrificial lamb, but all you have to do is accept that he is who He said He was, and death is not the end.

So, basically, anyone today claiming to be Jesus is a liar, cause He already came, and the next time He comes, is the big Game OVER, end of times, Armegeddon, End of It ALL!

Matthew 24:23-27: (this is Jesus speaking): "then if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ", or "There", do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See I have told you beforehand. Therefore, if they say to you, "Look, He is in the desert.", do not go out, or "Look, he is in the inner rooms.", do not believe it. For as the lightning flashes from the East, and flashes to the West, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

All of mankind will see it. All. Which is why these morons claiming to be "The Second Coming", are just that. Morons. Liars. And anyone that has ever read about Jesus, and the resurrection and His return, must know that a normal human in these modern times, claiming to be Him in these days. Heck, people bought 'pet rocks' back in the 70's and believed in what 'mood rings' told them. Name the idiocy, and people will blind themselves against the Truth. The Enemy works in very obvious and simple ways, and it always works against many.