T1B

Supposedly we're all God's children, yet a goodly number of us remain in afterlife peril.

Remember, pop, the vast majority of the world does not accept Jesus as their savior. According to you, this means that something like 2/3rds of mankind is doomed.

God could easily prevent this. He chooses not to, which makes him a real dick.

Van wrote:Supposedly we're all God's children

People commonly say this, but it's not what's in the Bible.

We can look at Jesus speaking to the Pharisees in John 8:42-47.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Their father is the devil.
They are not of God.

They can not hear God's Words.
And likewise, Jesus said in John 10:27 that it is His sheep (God's children) who hear His voice.

Children of satan are following after him - and they are not hearing God's voice.

did you know that every time poptart cites a verse from the bible, another angel gets his wings?

The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life.

Sigmund Freud

Right, pop. Those who don't accept as their "savior" some self-described messiah figure from 2000 years ago have the devil as their father, and therefore deserve eternal damnation at their behest of your wicked smart God.

Hey, we're only talking four billion people here. Fuck 'em. The silly Christers are the only ones who have it right...all seventy-nine bickering sects.

Yep, that's some solid critical thinking. Quite the compelling case you've built.

Van wrote:Hey, we're only talking four billion people here.

Is that all it is?

Looking at the state of the world, I might have thought it was a lot more.

But then, in many instances the Christians are as strange (or stranger) than the non-believers.

Yes, because the unbelief of humans (Christians, also) is SO deeply entrenched - and WEIRD is the result.

In my own case, so much as I believe, and believe God's Word, I feel like a normal human being.
Clear thoughts.

When not believing - well, not so much.

self-described messiah figure

?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

Yep, they all bought it hook, line and sinker, Jesus's spiel that he's the Son of God. This hippy outcast took the title for himself before his primitive minions hopped aboard the original Soul Train and began aping Jesus's words.

That is, assuming any of this actually even happened. Who knows to a certainty whether Jesus ever even existed?

Regardless, he was brought down here for nothing. His dad easily could've made it unnecessary. Instead, He screwed mankind, then he screwed His own son, and He's still screwing the majority of mankind to this day.

All in all, just a really solid plan.

Van wrote: That is, assuming any of this actually even happened. Who knows to a certainty whether Jesus ever even existed?

I don't have much doubt that some character proclaiming himself to be the son of god did exist, because of the utterly fatuous stories created to get this jesus character from bethlehem to nazareth so he could "fulfill" biblical prophecy.....a census whereby everyone has to return to their hometowns to be counted? ridiculous....

Felix, you may not doubt it but a number of historians sure do.

Not that it really matters. Either way, the Bible is so chock-full o' fabulous fictions, hey, what's one more?

Sam, Goobs, now it gets even odder. While there is no 'delete post' option in this Theology forum, there is one in the BTPCF forum. I just used it only two minutes ago.

Felix wrote:I don't have much doubt that some character proclaiming himself to be the son of god did exist, because of the utterly fatuous stories created to get this jesus character from bethlehem to nazareth so he could "fulfill" biblical prophecy.....a census whereby everyone has to return to their hometowns to be counted? ridiculous....

Luke (who recorded the event you noted) was distinct from the other Gospel writers in that he was quite "thorough" and detailed in what he wrote.
He was a physician and was also very well educated and read.
We recognize a bit about what sort of character he was.

Reading just the first four verses of Luke - Luke 1:1-4 gives you a flavor of his "detailed" approach.
Or we can look at Luke 3:1-2 where Luke gives specific date info about Cesar, Pilate, etc. - and get a taste of his detail.

Then we can see what you are talking about, Felix - Luke 2:1-5, where a specific event and info is given.

To my knowledge, there is not record of anyone of that time calling him out as a bullshitter for events and info he gave in his account.
If you have that, you can post it.

What we had at that time was an explosion of BELIEF in the accounts that he and the other Gospel writers gave.
And an explosion of belief which saw a huge spread of trust in Jesus Christ - beginning from the MOST UNDERDOG SITUATION one can just about imagine.

Now we have people who seek to discredit Luke (and other Gospel writers), of course - by picking away at things.

I don't expect it to end anytime soon.

Van wrote:Who knows to a certainty whether Jesus ever even existed?

With all due respect, this doubt enters the extreme tin foil realm.


This is informative listening, if you or anyone else is interested.

pop, the possibility that Jesus never truly existed is infinitely more plausible than the childish fairy tales written by primitives that you wholeheartedly believe in. The fact is, much of what you blindly accept as literal fact is no less ridiculous than the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

Seriously, dude, Santa Claus laughs at the silliness of stories such as the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark.

Jesus, pop, that video was twenty-seven minutes of saying only one thing over and over: There are countless copies of copies of copies of New Testament manuscripts, and no two copies are even close to being in agreement.

He's damn right when he says, "Just as it's a mistake to be overly skeptical about the validity of the New Testaments (although he can't say why it's wrong to be skeptical), it's equally wrong to take everything as a 100% literal truth. We can never know what the originals said, because they don't exist."

You may want to heed that advice. You sure could stand to adopt a little wiggle-room in your thinking.

He's damn right when he says, "Just as it's a mistake to be overly skeptical about the validity of the New Testaments (although he can't say why it's wrong to be skeptical), it's equally wrong to take everything as a 100% literal truth. We can never know what the originals said, because they don't exist."

You snaked his words around just enough to change his overall meaning.

He said that it's a mistake to be overly skeptical that---> what we read now is what the original manuscripts said.

The reason for this is that there are SO many manuscripts, copied coming from the same originals, which are in basic overall agreement.

If we had old manuscripts which showed DIFFERENT stories, different outcomes, different messages, then we could rightfully be of the view that the Bible we hold now can not be called reliable at all.
But that is not the case.
What we have is basic overall agreement in message from the oldest manuscripts.

Yes, there are many manuscript differences (overwhelmingly MINOR in nature), but they DO NOT alter any basic or important doctrinal meaning.

So what we can safely assume is that what we read in the book of John today is comparable to what John wrote... back in the day.

If one says, "No, we can't say that, poptart," then I would say, as Wallace says, that they are then saying that they don't believe ANYTHING which was recorded in ancient history, because the sheer number of Bible manuscripts absolutely DWARF manuscript numbers from other writers of history from ancient times.

One may not BELIEVE what John wrote, but it shows a lack of intellectual integrity to dispute that what John wrote has been relayed reasonably well to us.



The part where you say that he says "it's equally wrong to take everything as 100% literal truth" is twisting what he said.

The VALIDITY, for example, of what Matthew declares in his Gospel (Jesus is the Christ) is for the reader to decide.

Wallace's point is that there are words, phrases, minor discrepencies, etc., within the manuscripts which make "100% literal truth" basically impossible.

Example - an NIV Bible and a KJ Bible use many different Words and sentences while relaying that same information in the English language.

If I say that KJ Bible is God's Word, well, does that mean that the NIV is not?

No, they are both relaying that same (massively overwhelmingly) message to the reader and they are both God's Word.


In reality, it is Jesus Christ who is God's Word - John 1:1-3 - and that is a point Wallace made as well.

Except Jesus Christ never wrote a damn thing.

Sam, the beautiful thing here is God supposedly set this whole deal up so that we'd need a savior to protect us from...Him! It's God, not Satan, who sentences us to eternal damnation!

Awesome!

Can't see why anyone would have trouble getting on board with this scenario.

Sam wrote:Why not simply treat everyone as well as possible...live a good life...do nice things for others...

I would say it's a good way for you to go on about your life, Sam.

Van wrote:Except Jesus Christ never wrote a damn thing.

Continually worth noting is that the Bible is a Book centered on the spiritual world.
The message Jesus came to earth with was a spiritual message - and that is why the Pharisees wouldn't recognize Him as the Christ.
God is Spirit - John 4:24.
Man (created in God's image) is a spiritual being.

Jeremiah spoke of the day when God's Word (Christ) would come and abide in believers internally.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Van wrote:Sam, the beautiful thing here is God supposedly set this whole deal up so that we'd need a savior to protect us from...Him! It's God, not Satan, who sentences us to eternal damnation!

If man had been created as some sort of robot being... and God programmed us to go astray, and then gave us a Savior, yeah, I would say you're right.

But man has freedom, and as I posted previously...

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Bullshit, pop. Straight up, unmitigated bullshit. You cannot dance around the basic fact that God supposedly created us, flaws and all, then He set temptation before us, then He put in place the harshest penalty imaginable for giving in to that temptation. Later, He started the game all over again, this time offering up Jesus as the condition by which we're judged.

He treats us like we're rats in a labyrinth, forced to search for booby-trapped cheese. No matter how you slice it, God placed us in a position to be punished...by Him.

Who creates children just to punish them...or some of them? Why didn't He just set it up so that all His children will come to know Him? Then, when they die, they will all be by His side? Why the fuck does he set up the majority of His children to burn in hell? What does He get out of that? Is he so goddamn vain that He has to receive come-hither looks and promises of undying devotion from us before He'll give us the time of day?

Why isn't His love unconditional? He expects ours to be.

Van wrote:Who creates children just to punish them...or some of them? Why didn't He just set it up so that all His children will come to know Him? Then, when they die, they will all be by His side? Why the fuck does he set up the majority of His children to burn in hell?

I posted the Scriptures earlier ( a few of them - and there are many others) which show us that God protects ALL of His children.
NONE of us are condemned, but are instead holy and blameless in His sight.

Those who reject Christ are not God's children.

I would point to the Biblical realiity that God knew His children prior to the foundation of the world.
It was never in doubt that His children would be preserved and safe.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I have my own speculation (so I won't go deeply into it) about this situation, because full information about the reason for this is not given in Scripture, but something was happening involving human souls prior to our formation here on earth.
There is some reason why some people follow after satan rather than God - and are not God's children.

But at any rate, the idea that everyone is God's child is not supported by the Bible.

Which is why the Bible is so laughable. It paints God as a vain sadist, and still the very people it insults are expected to buy the whole lot.

By the way, the reason some people follow Satan rather than God is simple. God made us that way. He could have gifted us with absolute knowledge of His existence and loving benevolence. All of us. Every last soul. Instead God made Satan, and He allows Satan to tempt us.

Considering the fact that God is supposedly All Knowing, this means He knows He'll end up having to condemn the majority of us to an eternity in hell. That's His plan, and that's the God you worship.

Van wrote:By the way, the reason some people follow Satan rather than God is simple. God made us that way.

So a pedophile, murderer, thief, etc shouldn't be punished?

Apparently they aren't punished as long as they accept Jesus as their savior. Meanwhile, their victims who, for whatever reason, never got around to accepting Jesus as their savior are condemned to hell.

Sounds like an equitable plan.

That wasn't the question, but you know that.

That was precisely your question: Should scumbags be punished? I answered it in full.

Why God absolves "I accept Jesus as my savior!" scumbags of their crimes while damning their innocent victims to hell is the question you need to answer to.

Python's question is right.

Sandusky commits horrendous crimes.

Nobody screams, "DAMN YOU, GOD!! YOU MADE IT THIS WAY!!!"


No, Sandusky made those choices and he is responsible.

God gave us freedom and gave us ability to make out choices - just as He did with Adam, as recorded in Genesis 2:16,17.

We like our freedom.

Van wrote:Why God absolves "I accept Jesus as my savior!" scumbags of their crimes while damning their innocent victims to hell is the question you need to answer to.

Many things could be said about this question.

1. We know just a speck of what God knows.
He created it all and He created us.

2. "Bad" things happen to "good" people.
Paul was horribly afflicted, diseased, physically hurting... yet he was one of the largest vessels for world evangelization in history.
God didn't heal his physical afflictions - and Paul was exceedingly thankful, because he recognized God's phenomenal plan was within it.
There is a spiritual and eternal world.

3. As Jesus, fully blameless and harmless, was brutalized beyond our imagination and at the point of death, He said, "Forgive them."
Love your enemies - Matthew 5:44.
Forgive 77 times - Matthew 8:22.

Forgiving is healing.
And we are all swimming in the same sewer, we are all lacking, and we all wrong others.

There are no innocent victims.
People are in the midst of disaster because they are spiritual captives - and it's just a matter of time until the hammer really comes down.

Python's inane question was already answered, and there are absolutely innocent victims, you arrogant asshat. Who the fuck are you to be determining one's true guilt or innocence?

If a young, innocent mother who never happened to accept Jesus as her savior—for whatever fucking reason, whether it be that she'd never heard of Jesus, or she didn't buy the poorly argued bullshit of someone like you, or she simply never felt any need to be 'saved' from some vain, vengeful God who never bothered to make Himself known to her—the only thing she may be guilty of in the eyes of God is her lack of devotion to Christ. For that one-and-only 'sin,' she will be condemned to an eternity in hell after being raped and killed by some filthy scumbag.

The filthy scumbag? As long as he believes in Jesus, God's fine with him. He's off to the Pearly Gates upon his death.

You call that mankind's freedom, and label it a good thing? That's a solid, reasonable plan to you?

All your hiding behind vacuous Bible-quote nonsequiturs will never change the fact that you're spouting pure insanity.

One thing we know - a rape and murder could happen to anyone of any belief.

Shortly after I moved to Houston in 1995, a story appeared in the newspaper about a woman who was raped and murdered as she did her regular afternoon jog in the neighborhood next to ours.
The story came out about her - that she was a terrific woman, a devoted Christian, very active in her church and very concerned for her own family.
Under questioning from the prosecutors, the murderer said that as he raped her, and just before he stabbed her to death with a knife, she evangelized to him.
She testified Christ to him and asked him to please receive Jesus Christ.

It was a very moving story.


About my "no innocent people" comment, as I noted with some previous Scripture, the salvation of God's children has never been in doubt.
And please see John 10:26-29 - Jesus speaking to the Pharisees.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

- Those who don't believe are not God's
- God's children do hear His voice, He knows us, and we follow Him
- We have eternal life and will never lose it


If one is not God's, who's is he? (rhetorical)

If he is following satan, he will follow satan to satan's end spot - and we know what that is.

If he were to be innocent (washed in Christ's blood), God would have pulled him out and allowed for him to take Christ prior to ultimate disaster's crashing in on him, because God will allow for one of His to hear His voice and accept Jesus at some point in his life here on earth.


One last point, we should look at what happened at the passover.

God brought His children out of bondage in Egypt - which, btw, represents people now being spiritual captives of satan.

God accomplished bringing them out by telling the Israelites to paint blood (Christ) on their door frames - and that the angel of death would come through Egyptian homes and kill all first-borns - but would pass over (keep safe) those marked with the blood.

God was no respector of persons - whether someone was a "good" Israelite or "bad" Israelite.
Didn't matter and it doesn't matter now who is "good" or "bad."

What matters is ---> are you covered by the blood?

This is God's method.
We can argue and think it's not a good method - but that's what it is, and if He is God, He might know more than us.


People are spiritual captives now and they are in the midst of disaster.
It's a very urgent thing that people belive God and get out of it.
That is why I post God's Word in here.

If you or others disagree, that's is your call to make, and I understand because I used to be standing where you are.

Why is a belief in Christ even necessary anymore? Believing in God should be enough. For the majority of people living 2,000 years later, the story of Jesus simply has no compelling relevancy.

Van wrote:Why is a belief in Christ even necessary anymore? Believing in God should be enough. For the majority of people living 2,000 years later, the story of Jesus simply has no compelling relevancy.

There are many things that might be said about this, too, but I'll give a brief reply.
Reading it, Jesus' dialogue with the Pharisees in Luke 16 came to mind.

At the end of the conversation (v.31), Jesus said of some non-believers, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

There are some who just will not be moved.

And you know what?
Going back to Cain and Abel, there have been "peoples" (because they will not be moved) who God just left alone.
Left them to wallow in their pitiful disaster.

Cain ignored the Covenant - and God sent him off and he produced a people which God left alone.
It is such today, where there are peoples who God leaves alone.

If you are reading this, you might consider that God is not leaving you alone, but is allowing you to hear His Word.

It's no small blessing, im"o".

If God really gave a shit, he'd make sure I hear His word. Rather than relying on a man-made book of ancient fables that basically mirrors the holy books of every other major religion, he'd pay me a visit and deliver His word Himself.

He could knock out such a visit in a matter of a minute or so, and I guarantee you that it would work.

Van wrote:

He could knock out such a visit in a matter of a minute or so, and I guarantee you that it would work.

Maybe, but then you'd be called a Christer, holy roller, lunatic, bigot, etc. and you'd be spending the rest of your life trying to convince others that you've experienced truth in your life and you want them to know about it. You might even end up trying to explain it to people on a message board.

Python wrote:

Van wrote:

He could knock out such a visit in a matter of a minute or so, and I guarantee you that it would work.

Maybe, but then you'd be called a Christer, holy roller, lunatic, bigot, etc. and you'd be spending the rest of your life trying to convince others that you've experienced truth in your life and you want them to know about it. You might even end up trying to explain it to people on a message board.

That would be ironic. To see God and wind up living in hell.

Van wrote:If God really gave a shit, he'd make sure I hear His word. Rather than relying on a man-made book of ancient fables that basically mirrors the holy books of every other major religion, he'd pay me a visit and deliver His word Himself.

He could knock out such a visit in a matter of a minute or so, and I guarantee you that it would work.

You've heard it, you've just chose to dismiss it.

Damnnd if I'm reading this whole thead, but somebody, likely tart, has mentioned that we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but spiritual principalities.

You can ridicule that Van, I don't blame you if you do. I've fought with them and lost, but I know they exist. A quite palpable existance, hanging over your bed while you try to sleep.

The seeker that you are, you've probably felt them too. I know you have.

I have no advice for you my friend other than praying the way Jesus taught us to pray.

Works for me.

No, Wags, I haven't heard it, and I would never choose to dismiss it. All I've ever heard are men and women quoting religious texts, in addition to offering their personal narratives. Neither of those entirely mundane occurences constitute a personal visit from God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Van, you have heard it.

I have witnessed to you, as have others.

You are deaf, dumb, and blind. You want a burning bush moment that you'll have to find for yourself.

Most likely, that moment will be when Satan stands over you and laughs like he did at me when I was earnestly seeking. He stood over my bed and laughed at me for even trying Van, I shit you not. He told me I couldn't do it. And he was right, I'm a miserable failure. But I know the truth, and this is what I speak.

But dude won't waste a second over you or me.

God bless 'tart for still trying.

Wags, people telling me their stories doesn't cut it. I don't need to be "witnessed to," I need my own story.

Satan? I'm sure he's already done his bit on me.

Van wrote:I need my own story.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

I seldom say a prayer for anybody other than my own selfish, forlorn ass, but I'll say a word or two for you next time.

War Wagon wrote: I seldom say a prayer for anybody other than my own selfish, forlorn ass, but I'll say a word or two for you next time.

nice....maybe "the man upstairs" will listen to you and decide that he should cut Van a break, despite Van's protestations....

Danish physicist Niels Bohr once hung a horseshoe over his doorway. Appalled friends exclaimed that surely he didn’t put any trust in such pathetic superstition. “No, I don’t,” he replied with composure, “but apparently it works whether you believe in it or not.”