Spiritual Problems

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:15 am

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I noted in the "blame" thread about how Adam became immediately oppressed as soon as he became separated from God.

Yes, because man is not a being who can live apart from the Creator.

Pluck a fish out of the water and place him on a deck.
It flops, flips, and flails all over the place - because it must remain in the water in order to live.
It is freaking out.
It will have physical problems - and then it will die.

This is man apart from God.

So we try all manner of methods to find a sense of peace.
But it never comes - and in fact, the oppression (mental and physical) just escalates over time.

People out in the world are not in their right mind - and that is why we see such horrendous acts, activities, and disasters take place.

People are badly oppressed.

The moment a person receives the promise of God, Jesus Christ, a healing process begins.

Spiritual healing begins for man, who was created in God's image (John 4:24) as a spiritual being.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:23 pm

poptart wrote:Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

I noted in the "blame" thread about how Adam became immediately oppressed as soon as he became separated from God.

Yes, because man is not a being who can live apart from the Creator.

Pluck a fish out of the water and place him on a deck.
It flops, flips, and flails all over the place - because it must remain in the water in order to live.
It is freaking out.
It will have physical problems - and then it will die.

This is man apart from God.

In other words, poptart is all wet.

Van · Post by **Van** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:42 pm

poptart wrote:I noted in the "blame" thread about how Adam became immediately oppressed as soon as he became separated from God.

Oppressed by whom? Besides God and Eve, who was supposedly just an Adam McRib, who else was there to oppress Adam?

If God oppressed him, well, again, God is a total dick. He creates the guy, sets him up to fail, watches him fail, then shits on him.

Solid plan there, asshat...if you're Josef Mengele.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:27 am

Van wrote:Oppressed by whom? Besides God and Eve, who was supposedly just an Adam McRib, who else was there to oppress Adam?

Satan, who was present from the beginning of creation - Genesis 1:2.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:06 am

And who created Satan, then set him loose on Adam?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:07 am

God is the Creator of all things.

It was Adam's decision to follow through with what satan suggested to him.
God didn't turn satan loose on him.

Good reading here is Romans 9:14-30.

Excerpt: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:51 am

God set Satan upon him. Satan doesn't even exist, much less have the opportunity to tempt Adam, not without God's blessing. He made Adam weak, ensuring his failure. That's on God. He had it within His power to protect His child from harm, and from temptation beyond reckoning. Instead he allowed His most powerful angel to go after Adam, knowing full well what the outcome would be.

Why create Adam just to tear him down, then blame him for it? Create a child, then oppress him because he couldn't pass a test he had no business being forced to take?

Only a cruel sadist does that. Even as silly fairy tales go, this one is just plain horrible. The father figure is nothing but a manipulative asshole who sees his children as mere playthings. The way God treated Adam—and all mankind—it's like He's like some punk kid who amuses himself by torturing small animals.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:57 am

There was a time when I had similar thoughts.

I did come to a point of looking from another perspective, though.
Basically that I don't really know very much.

This God created me - and I'm going to lecture Him in my mind about how it ought to be?

But of course it goes well beyond that.

He created all humanity, all life, the earth, our sun, planets, and the entire universe.

I'm a speck, and His understanding so dwarfs mine that... well, even using the term dwarfs is woefully inadequate.

Van · Post by **Van** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:45 pm

So, when logic fails—and it's clearly illogical that a benevolent God would set Satan upon His own children—park your brain. Gotcha.

Besides, God didn't create me. My parents did. God hasn't even earned the right to be called an absentee parent. From the sounds of things, if God was my parent, He'd probably stick a razor blade in my cereal just to make sure I was paying attention.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:29 am

Van wrote:it's clearly illogical that a benevolent God would set Satan upon His own children

This take is going into deep theological territory where our own speculation is involved.

Just based on the Bible, I don't agree with your take.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

God's children are those who have received Jesus Christ - and for God's children, satan's work has been destroyed

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:56 am

If God hadn't let Satan loose upon Adam in the first place, hey, there would've been no need for Jesus to redeem mankind.

Can you deny this?

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:02 am

It might be that Adam would have left God's word at some time without satan's suggestion - this we don't know.

There would be no need for a Redeemer if Adam had not departed from God's Word - this we know.

"God let satan loose on Adam" isn't a phrase which I would use.

Adam made his own decision to go along with satan's suggestion.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:16 am

Who allowed Satan to tempt Adam? Hell, who allowed Satan to exist?

See, if I thought there was a danger that could threaten my children, I'd protect them from that danger. If at all possible, I'd stamp out that danger.

Instead, God not only created a danger to His children, he allowed that danger to come into contact with them. Then, making it even worse, he predicated His children's future on their ability to turn away from the very danger He set upon them.

Pure malice.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:44 am

God has allowed satan to exist and God allows satan to tempt His children.

Why this is so is not fully explained to us in Scripture - but I posted about Romans 9:14-30 before (which speaks of this) and you can read it if you care to.

It's important to know that God's children are fully saved and redeemed by Him.

isaiah 43:1-7
1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honorable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west:
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:53 am

poptart wrote:God has allowed satan to exist and God allows satan to tempt His children.

Why this is so is not fully explained to us in Scripture

Imagine that! The protagonist of the story behaves like a total dick, and no reason is given.

Shocking.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:51 am

I suggested Romans 9:14-30 as reference from the Bible about criticism of God's methods.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv ... te=5015363

When God came to earth (Jesus), I trust you had no issue with his behavior?

On top of everything else He did, He gave it all up so that all who simply trust it and receive it can be rescued.

Those are God's children.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:05 pm

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
Gene Roddenberry

George Bush says he speaks to god every day, and christians love him for it. If George Bush said he spoke to god through his hair dryer, they would think he was mad. I fail to see how the addition of a hair dryer makes it any more absurd.

-Sam Harris

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:48 pm

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
Gene Roddenberry

As I noted in the "blame" thread, the very first thing Adam did after he... chose ... to leave God's Word, is blame God.

Because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that He causes it to happen.

God gave man the ability to chose his own will or God's will - Genesis 2:16,17.

About faulty humans being blamed by God, note that as God views His children, what he sees are children who are HOLY AND BLAMELESS - Ephesians 1:4.
That's what He sees as He looks at us.

And we are under NO CONDEMNATION - Romans 8:1.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:20 pm

poptart wrote: Because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that He causes it to happen.

look make up your mind....either he's omnipotent or he's not....omnipotence by definition means this god character controls everything....what do you mean he doesn't cause anything?

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:17 pm

He caused Satan's existence, then He caused Satan's temptation of His children. He had it within His power to prevent it, and chose not to, knowing His children would fail.

Sending Christ down countless millenia later is just stupid. Man's sins don't require any atoning for by Jesus if God doesn't set man up to sin in the first place. God sabotaged the foundation, then blamed the contractor when the building collapsed.

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:26 pm

Huh?

Sam, are you getting an early start today on the adult beverage imbibing?

Van · Post by **Van** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:26 pm

Sure there is. I think.

~checking now...~

Nope, there isn't.

That's weird, too, because I double-posted not too long ago and was able to delete the second post.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:36 am

Van wrote:He caused Satan's existence, then He caused Satan's temptation of His children. He had it within His power to prevent it, and chose not to, knowing His children would fail.

Sending Christ down countless millenia later is just stupid. Man's sins don't require any atoning for by Jesus if God doesn't set man up to sin in the first place. God sabotaged the foundation, then blamed the contractor when the building collapsed.

There is no blame, Van.

God's children are holy and blameless in His sight - and we are under no condemnation.

And again, we don't know if Adam would have chosen to leave God at some point anyway, without satan's suggestion.
He very well might have - because we were given free will.

You like freedom, don't you?

Felix, here is Genesis 2:16,17.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed - and then He offered Adam a choice.
And God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:47 am

poptart wrote:There is no blame, Van.

God's children are holy and blameless in His sight - and we are under no condemnation.

Really?

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed - and then He offered Adam a choice.
And God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

Dude, you're a mess.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:08 am

Overwhelmingly, Churches are into legalism, Sam, so yeah, I shudder to imagine what you might have been exposed to.

Van, God redeemed Adam and Eve - Genesis 3:15, 21.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:21 am

Make up your mind, pop...

God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

Goober McTuber · Post by **Goober McTuber** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:10 am

Van wrote:Sure there is. I think.

~checking now...~

Nope, there isn't.

That's weird, too, because I double-posted not too long ago and was able to delete the second post.

I believe that if there are no posts subsequent to yours, that the delete option is there. I saw it today.

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:11 am

Nope.

~let's try this again~

Nope. No delete option. No little x icon. Odd, because I know I deleted a post not too long ago.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:39 am

Van wrote:Make up your mind, pop...

God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

Dire consequences came.
See Genesis 3:16-19.

God redeems His children, however.

Right now, people are in the midst of disaster - and the consequences they face are very dire indeed, should they continue apart from God.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:53 am

Sam wrote:KJV

King James?

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:14 am

poptart wrote:Right now, people are in the midst of disaster - and the consequences they face are very dire indeed, should they continue apart from God.

There is no blame, Van.

God's children are holy and blameless in His sight - and we are under no condemnation.

Make up your mind, pop...

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:36 am

poptart wrote:
And God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

yeah, that's what your book says...and you want to see what comes of it.....

this child's parents should be prosecuted for child abuse...why would any parent choose to purposely scare their children with horror stories like this?

this is what you're defending....

honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself....

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:32 am

poptart wrote:1. Right now, people are in the midst of disaster - and the consequences they face are very dire indeed, should they continue apart from God.

2. There is no blame, Van.

God's children are holy and blameless in His sight - and we are under no condemnation.

1 and 2 are different categories, Van.

1. People apart from God - following after the God of this world, who is taking them to their destruction. They're in very deep trouble.

2. God's children.

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:37 am

Felix wrote:
poptart wrote:
And God warned him of dire consequences if a terrible choice was made.

He does the same thing today.

yeah, that's what your book says...and you want to see what comes of it.....

this child's parents should be prosecuted for child abuse...why would any parent choose to purposely scare their children with horror stories like this?

this is what you're defending....

honestly, you should be ashamed of yourself....

It's not my child and I didn't teach her, Felix.

I think it's very great for children to learn clearly about the Gospel.

I'm not at all sure that this little girl has been taught well.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:41 am

poptart wrote:
It's not my child and I didn't teach her, Felix.

I think it's very great for children to learn clearly about the Gospel.

I'm not at all sure that this little girl has been taught well.

okay, be specific about which part pf what she's saying you disagree with.....

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:17 am

I don't disagree with any of her content.

She didn't say, however, how it is that people have come into a problem (original sin), and what this problem does to us - other than the Hell aspect, which she went right into - and I wouldn't advise to do.

Hell, while an ultimate disaster, is something that people tend to view as ---> down the road somewhere.

I would prefer to speak about problems which are present right now as a result of being separated from God - and what blessings and restoration comes about right now when someone receives Jesus Christ.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:45 am

poptart wrote:I don't disagree with any of her content.

She didn't say, however, how it is that people have come into a problem (original sin), and what this problem does to us - other than the Hell aspect, which she went right into - and I wouldn't advise to do.

Hell, while an ultimate disaster, is something that people tend to view as ---> down the road somewhere.

I would prefer to speak about problems which are present right now as a result of being separated from God.

that little girl is simply not capable of carrying on any kind of meaningful, intellectually based conversation about anything...everything she's spouting there is just a regurgitation of the horror stories in the bible....she's been brainwashed with this rubbish....so much for free thought eh?

Van · Post by **Van** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:35 pm

poptart wrote:
poptart wrote:1. Right now, people are in the midst of disaster - and the consequences they face are very dire indeed, should they continue apart from God.

2. There is no blame, Van.

God's children are holy and blameless in His sight - and we are under no condemnation.
1 and 2 are different categories, Van.

1. People apart from God - following after the God of this world, who is taking them to their destruction. They're in very deep trouble.

2. God's children.

B.S.

God's children have always been under threat, ever since God put them in jeopardy. Just as it was in the garden, so it remains to this day.

You're spouting circular jibberish.

Felix · Post by **Felix** » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:29 pm

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

Thomas Jefferson

poptart · Post by **poptart** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:41 am

Van wrote:God's children have always been under threat, ever since God put them in jeopardy. Just as it was in the garden, so it remains to this day.

I must say that as you look at the Bible, the opposite is true, Van.

God has (and will) always protected His children.

I posted Isaiah 43:1-7 earlier - and there are many other such examples.

We can look at Ephesians 1 for something important...

Ehesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

God knew His children before the foundation of the world, and allows for them to absolutely attain salvation in their lifetime through Jesus Christ.

It's also worth noting again of the spiritual.

Thread title - spiritual problems.
Ephesians 1:3 - spiritual blessings.

Adam died (spiritually) in the day he left God - and that death (spiritual, as well as physical, which follows) has passed to all people.
But God did not allow for His children to remain in this death.

God's children are spiritually secure and have never been in danger.