A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Cuda »

How much Gubmint Cheese did they get? Several hundred million, or so?

Nice job, as usual, O-Clicktalker :lol: :meds:

OTOH, anybody who buys one of these shitboxes deserves a $40k ass-fucking
Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem

Tesla Motors' lineup of all-electric vehicles — its existing Roadster, almost certainly its impending Model S, and possibly its future Model X — apparently suffer from a severe limitation that can largely destroy the value of the vehicle. If the battery is ever totally discharged, the owner is left with what Tesla describes as a "brick": a completely immobile vehicle that cannot be started or even pushed down the street. The only known remedy is for the owner to pay Tesla approximately $40,000 to replace the entire battery. Unlike practically every other modern car problem, neither Tesla's warranty nor typical car insurance policies provide any protection from this major financial loss. Here's how it happens.

Despite this "brick" scenario having occurred several times already, Tesla has publicly downplayed the severity of battery depletion risk to both existing owners and future buyers. Privately though, Tesla has gone to great lengths to prevent this potentially brand-destroying incident from happening more often, including possibly engaging in GPS tracking of a vehicle without the owner's knowledge. UPDATE!
NOTE (UPDATED!): The argument outlined in this story by Michael DeGusta that originally appeared on theunderstatement.com has been confirmed by Tesla with the following statement:

All automobiles require some level of owner care. For example, combustion vehicles require regular oil changes or the engine will be destroyed. Electric vehicles should be plugged in and charging when not in use for maximum performance. All batteries are subject to damage if the charge is kept at zero for long periods of time. However, Tesla avoids this problem in virtually all instances with numerous counter-measures. Tesla batteries can remain unplugged for weeks (even months), without reaching zero state of charge. Owners of Roadster 2.0 and all subsequent Tesla products can request that their vehicle alert Tesla if SOC falls to a low level. All Tesla vehicles emit various visual and audible warnings if the battery pack falls below 5 percent SOC. Tesla provides extensive maintenance recommendations as part of the customer experience.

— Ed.

How To Brick An Electric Car

A Tesla Roadster that is simply parked without being plugged in will eventually become a "brick". The parasitic load from the car's always-on subsystems continually drains the battery and if the battery's charge is ever totally depleted, it is essentially destroyed. Complete discharge can happen even when the car is plugged in if it isn't receiving sufficient current to charge, which can be caused by something as simple as using an extension cord. After battery death, the car is completely inoperable. At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it's not even possible to enable tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means.

The amount of time it takes an unplugged Tesla to die varies. Tesla's Roadster Owners Manual [Full Zipped PDF] states that the battery should take approximately 11 weeks of inactivity to completely discharge [Page 5-2, Column 3: PDF]. However, that is from a full 100% charge. If the car has been driven first, say to be parked at an airport for a long trip, that time can be substantially reduced. If the car is driven to nearly its maximum range and then left unplugged, it could potentially "brick" in about one week.[1] Many other scenarios are possible: for example, the car becomes unplugged by accident, or is unwittingly plugged into an extension cord that is defective or too long.

When a Tesla battery does reach total discharge, it cannot be recovered and must be entirely replaced. Unlike a normal car battery, the best-case replacement cost of the Tesla battery is currently at least $32,000, not including labor and taxes that can add thousands more to the cost.

Full sizeFive Examples And Counting

Of the approximately 2,200 Roadsters sold to date, a regional service manager for Tesla stated he was personally aware of at least five cases of Tesla Roadsters being "bricked" due to battery depletion. It is unknown if there are additional cases in other regions or countries.

The 340th Tesla Roadster produced went to a customer in Santa Barbara, California. In 2011, he took his Roadster out for a drive and then parked it in a temporary garage while his home was being renovated. Lacking a built-in Tesla charger or a convenient power outlet, he left the car unplugged. Six weeks later his car was dead. It took four men two hours to drag the 2,700-pound Roadster onto a flatbed truck so that it could be shipped to Tesla's Los Angeles area service center, all at the owner's expense. A service manager then informed him that "it's a brick" and that the battery would cost approximately $40,000 to replace. He was further told that this was a special "friends and family" price, strongly implying that Tesla generally charges more.

As a second Roadster owner discovered, the Tesla battery system can completely discharge even when the vehicle is plugged in. This owner's car was plugged into a 100-foot long extension cord for an extended period. The length of this extension cord evidently reduced the electric current to a level insufficient to charge the Tesla, resulting in another "bricked" Roadster.

A third bricked Tesla Roadster apparently sits in its owner's garage in Newport Beach, California. That owner allegedly had a similar prior incident with a BMW-produced electric vehicle. He claimed BMW replaced that vehicle, but Tesla refuses to do the same. The owner either couldn't afford or didn't want to pay Tesla the $40,000 (or more) to fix his car.

A fourth customer shipped his Tesla Roadster to Japan, reportedly only to discover the voltages there were incompatible. By then, it was too late, the car was bricked, and he had to ship it back to the US for repairs.

The whereabouts and circumstances of the fifth bricked Roadster the Tesla service manager expressed knowledge of are unknown.

No Warranty, No Insurance, No Payment Plan

Tesla has a "bumper to bumper" warranty [Page 3: PDF], but the warranty text allows Tesla to hold the owner responsible for any damage related to "Failure to maintain the Battery at a proper charge level at all times" - the meaning of "proper charge" doesn't appear to be specifically defined. Tesla CEO Elon Musk, Vice President of Sales & Ownership Experience George Blankenship, and Vice President of Worldwide Service J. Joost de Vries all became directly involved in at least one "brick" situation, with de Vries stating in writing that since Tesla's documentation and warranty "identify in clear language to keep the Roadster on external power when parked" the decision to decline any warranty or financial relief was "correct and justified".[2]

Unfortunately for current and future Tesla owners who encounter this problem, it's also not covered by normal automobile insurance policies. This makes the situation almost unique in modern car-ownership: a $40,000 or more exposure that cannot be insured. After all, car insurance is designed to protect owners and drivers even when they are neglectful or at fault. The affected customers probably would have been in a better financial situation if they'd accidentally rolled their Teslas off a cliff, as insurance would generally cover much of those costs.

Due to Tesla batteries naturally decaying over time, Tesla offered Roadster customers a $12,000 "battery replacement program". This program is intended to replace a Roadster battery with a new one seven years after purchase. When asked, the Tesla service manager said even if owners had paid in advance for this replacement battery program, they would not be allowed to use it to replace an accidentally discharged battery - they would have to pay the full $40,000-plus cost.[3]

The Santa Barbara owner was also informed that no other financing or payment plan would be made available to pay for the replacement battery, and that he needed to either pay in full or remove his dead vehicle from the Tesla service center as soon as possible.

Full sizeUnderstated Warnings to Owners

With such a large price tag for a bricked vehicle, it would be reasonable to expect Tesla to go to great lengths to ensure their customers were fully aware of the severity of battery discharge. Instead it seems that Tesla, while working to make it clear their vehicles should always be left plugged in, also appears to have focused on trying not to spook their current and future customers about the potentially severe ramifications of complete battery discharge.

The Tesla Roadster Owners Manual begins with several "Important Notes About Your Vehicle" [Page 1-2: PDF], none of which make any mention of battery discharge. In Chapter 5 of the manual, where vehicle charging is addressed, Tesla states that the vehicle is "designed to be plugged in" and that allowing the charge level to fall to 0% "can permanently damage the Battery." [Page 5-2: PDF] It does not specify that a completely discharged battery may need to be replaced, entirely at the owner's expense, at a cost that could be the majority of the value of the vehicle.

Tesla did begin handing out a "Battery Reminder Card" [PDF] when a Roadster was brought in for servicing. However, the card gently and cheerfully prods owners to "Remember - a connected Roadster is a happy Roadster!" with no mention of the possible consequences of a complete discharge.

There is no warning regarding battery discharge on the actual power port of the vehicle itself, where a gas-powered car often contains warnings about issues like the use of leaded gasoline in an unleaded vehicle. There is also no warning on the power port or in the Roadster Owner's manual regarding the use of extension cords.

What About The Model S?

It's not just the Roadster - Tesla's service manager stated the upcoming Model S definitely shares the Roadster's discharge problem, describing it as fundamental to the battery technology. Another Tesla employee concurred, saying it would be "neglect" to leave the vehicle unplugged when it's parked. This fits with statements by Kurt Kelty, Tesla's Director of Battery Technology, that the Model S uses the same battery technology as the Roadster. Yet on Tesla's Model S "Facts" page under "Charging", potential buyers are presented with only the lenient guideline that "Tesla recommends plugging your Model S in each night or when convenient."

Assuming the Model S has the same battery vulnerability as the Roadster, Tesla's Model S FAQ is woefully incomplete at best. In the FAQ, Tesla explicitly addresses the question of what happens when their car is parked and not charging:

If Model S is parked and not charging, will the battery lose its charge?
Loss of charge at rest is minimal. For example, Model S owners can park at the airport for extended vacations without plugging in.

That's the answer in its entirety - nothing at all about the eventual, inevitable, catastrophic battery failure that the Tesla service manager seemed certain of.

Even the minimal loss of charge statement is highly suspect. The Roadster's owner manual [Page 5-2, Column 3: PDF] states that a fully charged car can be expected to lose 50% of its charge in just 7 days, clearly not a "minimal" amount. As far as leaving the car for an "extended vacation", the manual [Page 5-3, Column 1: PDF] actually states that vehicles left for more than two weeks should not only be plugged in, but plugged into a special $1,950 (plus installation) Tesla High Power Connector that is not generally available at airports or elsewhere at present. Additionally, leaving a Tesla Roadster at the airport for an extended vacation would seemingly invalidate the warranty which says the battery "should never remain continuously unplugged for an extended period of time, regardless of the state of charge" [Page 5, Column 2: PDF] - practically the exact opposite of Tesla's Model S FAQ answer.

The Model S battery could be very different from that of the Roadster. If so, however, this would mean not only that the Tesla employees are wrong, but that Tesla has made radical improvements in these areas but has decided not to actively promote them or even mention them prominently on their website. Barring that improbable scenario, Tesla's marketing appears to be less than entirely forthcoming on this key issue.

Tesla's Unorthodox Prevention Measures

While customer and marketing communication about charging are focused on gentle reminders, behind the scenes Tesla has seemingly been scrambling to try to ensure existing owners don't "brick" their cars.

After the first 500 Roadsters, Tesla added a remote monitoring system to the vehicles, connecting through AT&T's GSM-based cellular network. Tesla uses this system to monitor various vehicle metrics including the battery charge levels, as long as the vehicle has the GSM connection activated[4] and is within range of AT&T's network. According to the Tesla service manager, Tesla has used this information on multiple occasions to proactively telephone customers to warn them when their Roadster's battery was dangerously low.

In at least one case, Tesla went even further. The Tesla service manager admitted that, unable to contact an owner by phone, Tesla remotely activated a dying vehicle's GPS to determine its location and then dispatched Tesla staff to go there. It is not clear if Tesla had obtained this owner's consent to allow this tracking[5], or if the owner is even aware that his vehicle had been tracked. Further, the service manager acknowledged that this use of tracking was not something they generally tell customers about.

Going to these lengths could be seen as customer service, but it would also seem to fit with an internal awareness at Tesla of the gravity of the "bricking" problem, and the potentially disastrous public relations and sales fallout that could result from it becoming more broadly known.

Coming Soon: More Customers, More Problems

Tesla produced 2,500 Roadsters, but it plans to make 25,000 Model S vehicles by the end of 2013. This vastly increases the possible number of accidental "bricking" incidents. At the same time, the Model S pricing starts at $49,900 (after US tax incentives), broadening the market to households of far more modest means than the owners of the $109,000 and up Roadster. This in turn makes it even less likely that Tesla buyers will have the necessary tens of thousands of dollars to spare if they ever allow their battery to fully discharge.

Tesla has officially stated that "it is impossible to accurately forecast the cost of future battery replacements", but the Tesla service manager said he expected the Model S battery to cost even more than the Roadster's. If true, it would mean that a Model S battery failure could essentially render the car valueless.

Tesla is actively targeting the mass market, with CEO Elon Musk recently touting the Model X as "the killer app for families." But as things stand today, families who fail to keep their car charged could end up unexpectedly forced to continue making payments on an inoperable and worthless vehicle. That would be a killer.

The Bottom Line

Tesla Motors is a public company that's valued at over $3.5 billion and has received $465 million in US government loans, all on the back of the promise that it can deliver a real world, all-electric car to the mainstream market. Yet today, in my opinion, Tesla seems to be knowingly selling cars that can turn into bricks without any financial protection for the customer.

Until there's a fundamental change in Tesla's technology, it would seem the only other option for Tesla is to help its customers insure against this problem. As consumers become aware that a Tesla is possibly just a long trip, a bad extension cord, or an accidental unplugging away from disaster, how many will choose to gamble $40,000 on that not happening? Would you?
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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KC Lift&Steam should disregard the above article
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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If you're too fucking stupid to plug it in you shouldn't be buying one.

When was the last time you got your oil changed?
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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your wife changed my oil just this afternoon
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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A third bricked Tesla Roadster apparently sits in its owner's garage in Newport Beach, California. That owner allegedly had a similar prior incident with a BMW-produced electric vehicle. He claimed BMW replaced that vehicle, but Tesla refuses to do the same. The owner either couldn't afford or didn't want to pay Tesla the $40,000 (or more) to fix his car.
"Gee, I wrecked my Beemer by not plugging it in, let's find out if the same thing will happen with the Tesla."

This guy registers about "Cuda" on the IQ scale.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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looks like you issed the one imediately above your example
As a second Roadster owner discovered, the Tesla battery system can completely discharge even when the vehicle is plugged in. This owner's car was plugged into a 100-foot long extension cord for an extended period. The length of this extension cord evidently reduced the electric current to a level insufficient to charge the Tesla, resulting in another "bricked" Roadster.
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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As a second Roadster owner discovered, the Tesla battery system can completely discharge even when the vehicle is plugged in. This owner's car was plugged into a 100-foot long extension cord for an extended period. The length of this extension cord evidently reduced the electric current to a level insufficient to charge the Tesla, resulting in another "bricked" Roadster.
"Gee those electric cars are pretty cool. Too bad my power got shut off last week. No prob, though, the Joneses will never know that I'm plugged in to their back yard light socket."

This guy registers about Cuda + 10 on the IQ scale.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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yor mom registerd my +10 last night
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Nice hair-pulling contest.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Besides the bricking batteries (which might actually be recoverable, but Tesla doesn't want to deal with it), Tesla is bar far the class of the EV market.

And poor people ain't plunking down $175K for a Roadster.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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It doesn't surprise me that so many of these electric cars are concentrated in Cali. I guess they make sense to a very small part of the population that stays within a small radius of their home.

Here in San Antonio, the local electric provider got a government grant to install charging stations around the city. The Feds paid for 120 stations around the metro area "as part of a study of driving patterns of electric cars." These stations "remember" each individual car and the data can then be downloaded for the "study." Problem is the city and the electric car assoc estimate that there are 60 electric cars in the greater metro area. So that is two charging stations for each car. Well over a quarter of the charging stations are used less than three times per month. More than half see less than a visit per week.

Excellent use of Federal Monies.

If natural gas powered vehicles haven't taken off, I just don't see the electric vehicles getting anywhere with 95% of the car owning population.

What good is a car that can barely make 150 miles at posted highway speeds with the A/C running? (Based on the Tesla Model S 85Kw battery option)
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Speaking of -- my buddy's coworker at an extremely large tech firm around here (they make printers... probably the one on your desk) was enthralled with the idea of an EV, but didn't think it was very practical. Then, the company put in a free charging station, using the choicest parking spot outside the front door.

Changed his mind in a hurry -- well within range of his house, and he now pays zero for fuel for his commute, and zero fo charging. Makes a decent offset in his car payment.

I'm sure scams that allow others to pay for your car will become more prevalent in the coming years.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Does he rent a car to go to Seattle or down to a Duck's game?
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Left Seater wrote:It doesn't surprise me that so many of these electric cars are concentrated in Cali. I guess they make sense to a very small part of the population that stays within a small radius of their home.

Here in San Antonio, the local electric provider got a government grant to install charging stations around the city. The Feds paid for 120 stations around the metro area "as part of a study of driving patterns of electric cars." These stations "remember" each individual car and the data can then be downloaded for the "study." Problem is the city and the electric car assoc estimate that there are 60 electric cars in the greater metro area. So that is two charging stations for each car. Well over a quarter of the charging stations are used less than three times per month. More than half see less than a visit per week.

Excellent use of Federal Monies.

If natural gas powered vehicles haven't taken off, I just don't see the electric vehicles getting anywhere with 95% of the car owning population.

What good is a car that can barely make 150 miles at posted highway speeds with the A/C running? (Based on the Tesla Model S 85Kw battery option)
It's what you call a "pilot" program (no pun intended). The economics aren't expected to work out in the first stages. The point is to study the infrastructure, driver bahaviour, and physical feasibility, and use the experience gained to study the long term feasibility.

I commute four days a week, 50 miles total for each round trip. At least 95% of my driving is this distance or less. Do you really think that a large percentage of the population drives more than 100 miles per day, even in Texas? Commutes on the East Coast are probably shorter on average than in California.

Your comparison with natural gas vehicles is not really valid, as they are completely different animals. While it's undoubtedly faster to fill a NG vehicle than to charge an EV, you can't do it at home while you sleep, and it takes a lot of extra energy to compress that gas. Electric cars are actually a lot cheaper to operate than either gasoline or NG, once you get past the initial cost. The fuel cost is a lot lower, and the maintenance on an electric motor is almost non-existent compared to an internal combustion engine.

Of course that 100 foot extension cord might set you back a few $$.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Mikey wrote:
Left Seater wrote:It doesn't surprise me that so many of these electric cars are concentrated in Cali. I guess they make sense to a very small part of the population that stays within a small radius of their home.

Here in San Antonio, the local electric provider got a government grant to install charging stations around the city. The Feds paid for 120 stations around the metro area "as part of a study of driving patterns of electric cars." These stations "remember" each individual car and the data can then be downloaded for the "study." Problem is the city and the electric car assoc estimate that there are 60 electric cars in the greater metro area. So that is two charging stations for each car. Well over a quarter of the charging stations are used less than three times per month. More than half see less than a visit per week.

Excellent use of Federal Monies.

If natural gas powered vehicles haven't taken off, I just don't see the electric vehicles getting anywhere with 95% of the car owning population.

What good is a car that can barely make 150 miles at posted highway speeds with the A/C running? (Based on the Tesla Model S 85Kw battery option)
It's what you call a "pilot" program (no pun intended). The economics aren't expected to work out in the first stages. The point is to study the infrastructure, driver bahaviour, and physical feasibility, and use the experience gained to study the long term feasibility.

I commute four days a week, 50 miles total for each round trip. At least 95% of my driving is this distance or less. Do you really think that a large percentage of the population drives more than 100 miles per day, even in Texas? Commutes on the East Coast are probably shorter on average than in California.

Your comparison with natural gas vehicles is not really valid, as they are completely different animals. While it's undoubtedly faster to fill a NG vehicle than to charge an EV, you can't do it at home while you sleep, and it takes a lot of extra energy to compress that gas. Electric cars are actually a lot cheaper to operate than either gasoline or NG, once you get past the initial cost. The fuel cost is a lot lower, and the maintenance on an electric motor is almost non-existent compared to an internal combustion engine.

Of course that 100 foot extension cord might set you back a few $$.
I am not against EVs per say. I am against ginormous outputs of obamabucks to fund them. That study in teehas could have been done with half a dozen stations, from the sound of it, but, hell, how could the dude building all of them gotten rich off that?

The tesla is an overpriced toy for rich fukks that want to pretend they are "green". Ditto the volt, although you don't have to be rich for the volt, just upper middle class and kinda dumb with your (and my) money.

I actually think the GM is on the right track with the volt, but, they over complicated it and made it way too heavy. Had they made it on a cruze platform and used a much smaller ICE it might actually make financial sense.

You are right about not being able to sleep while filling the NG tank over night, because it doesn't take overnight. You could fill it while to make a cup of coffee.

And yeah, EVs are cheap to run ONCE you get past the initial outlay. Just don't fukking ask me to help with the initial outlay, you fukking green mooch.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Hey mikey,

I know you, like other greenie pipe dreamers had a hard on for the Aptera. Here's a much more practical hybrid, made by a real dude with out gubmint money. I have talked to the guy on ecomodder.com. His name is Ken. Seems like a really sharp down to earth practical guy. Kinda hard finding engineers like that nowadays. Check it out.

It is a lightweight series hybrid done in a minimalist fashion which will actually get 100 mpg on gas, not some cooked up e/gas bullshit number. Will go about 40 miles on 'trons alone.

http://www.zingcars.com/
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Aptera was right around the corner from here, but I'm pretty sure I heard that they went out of business, or at least started sending everybody's $500 deposits back because they couldn't get financing or meet their schedule.

BTW...there's a lot more out there now, and coming soon, than the Tesla and the Chevy Volt. As more models come out you will definitely see the prices drop. The writing is on the wall and the major car makers are starting to read it, or they woudn't be coming out with these new models. I heard that Ford alone has 5 new models coming out. Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi and all the Krauts already have models on the road.

BTW...my Sonata is paid for now, and I just passed 100K on the odo. Thinking of dumping it on one of my kids and getting a...

Volkswagen TDI.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Left Seater wrote:Does he rent a car to go to Seattle or down to a Duck's game?

He lives in Vantucky, probably loathes Seattle.

To your point -- for long trips, I'm pretty sure he kept his old car.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Mikey wrote: The economics aren't expected to work out in the first stages. The point is to study the infrastructure, driver bahaviour, and physical feasibility, and use the experience gained to study the long term feasibility..
The economics aren't expected to work out in any stage because the whole point is to transfer other people's money to poliically connected cronies. And it's not as though the aging trust-fund hippies who buy these shitboxes actually need to be subsidized-they'd vote for Oclick-talker regardess- but the subsidy reminds them of their comfy trust fund and makes them feel like they're still part of the great herd of independent thinkers.
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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Do you have some kind of Visual Basic cliché generator for coming up with this shit?

If you ever came up with anything original I'd be totally shocked.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

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So... you'd vote for Oclick-talker regardless, but you don't have a trust fund, Mikey?

you're a bigger sap than I thought.
WacoFan wrote:Flying any airplane that you can hear the radio over the roaring radial engine is just ghey anyway.... Of course, Cirri are the Miata of airplanes..
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by smackaholic »

Mikey wrote:Aptera was right around the corner from here, but I'm pretty sure I heard that they went out of business, or at least started sending everybody's $500 deposits back because they couldn't get financing or meet their schedule.

BTW...there's a lot more out there now, and coming soon, than the Tesla and the Chevy Volt. As more models come out you will definitely see the prices drop. The writing is on the wall and the major car makers are starting to read it, or they woudn't be coming out with these new models. I heard that Ford alone has 5 new models coming out. Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi and all the Krauts already have models on the road.

BTW...my Sonata is paid for now, and I just passed 100K on the odo. Thinking of dumping it on one of my kids and getting a...

Volkswagen TDI.
Aptera was a good idea that had the misfortune of having lots of money thrown at it. So, rather than just building the fukking thing, "experts" were brought in to make it better. All sorts of mods were made until it became apparent that thye could never actually build the damn thing and get anyone to buy it. There is quite a bit of info on it at ecomodder.com.

Entrepreneurs will undoubtedly bring practical EVs to market, if the government gets the fukk out of the way and just let them do it. Unfortunately, various gov. nanny organizations have made doing so very difficult. Builders are pretty much forced to go with 3 wheelers because they are "motorcycles". Add a fourth wheel and you need to go through bazillions of dollars to make our masters in DC happy.

Have you checked out the Sonata Hybrid? Pretty nice rig.

The TDI is an awesome vehicle, if you do a lot of open road driving. Hybrids have the edge in town. Too bad we don't have access here to VW's smaller euro model TDIs which can do 80 mpg.

If you get the TDI, will you run it on veggie oil like the other hippies?
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Mikey »

I may burn hash oil and just pipe the exhaust into the passeger compartment. Maybe add some patchouli for the nice nostalgic aroma.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Mikey »

smackaholic wrote: Builders are pretty much forced to go with 3 wheelers because they are "motorcycles". Add a fourth wheel and you need to go through bazillions of dollars to make our masters in DC happy.
I read somewhere that because it was a three wheel platform it couldn't qualify for government grants reserved for electric cars.

fucked if you do - fucked if you don't, I guess
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by smackaholic »

Mikey wrote:
smackaholic wrote: Builders are pretty much forced to go with 3 wheelers because they are "motorcycles". Add a fourth wheel and you need to go through bazillions of dollars to make our masters in DC happy.
I read somewhere that because it was a three wheel platform it couldn't qualify for government grants reserved for electric cars.

fucked if you do - fucked if you don't, I guess
Yeah, it's a bunch of bullshit.

There shouldn't be government grants. And the fukking feds shouldn't make it so damn expensive that people not named Bill Gates have to rely on them.

Imagine Henry Ford attempting to get his bidness running today.

My take on vehicle crash standards is, there shouldn't be any. Let people build/sell what they want. Let the consumer decide if he wants to drive a death trap or not.

How the fukk is it legal for a company to sell a 400 lb two wheeler with 150 HP, but, some shmuck can't drive a car he built on the roads, because it hasn't been proven safe yet by the NTSB safety nazis?
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by R-Jack »

When you say this...............
smackaholic wrote:[All sorts of mods were made until it became apparent that thye could never actually build the damn thing and get anyone to buy it.
It reminds me of this.............

Image

Image
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ahh Solargen

Post by Wolfman »

Years ago some guy came to my town and did this:

http://www.barthworks.com/cars/electric ... largen.htm

Image

I remember some well heeled folks in town fawning all over this guy, thinking he was going to put Cortland NY on the map.
We still can't make a battery worth a shit. They have squeezed about all you can get in efficiency from a gasoline internal combustion engine.
Now they are talking about 54 MPG cars? The only way to do that is to shorten the length of a mile. Maybe that's what Sotero---errr--Obama
has up his sleeve.
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Re: ahh Solargen

Post by R-Jack »

Wolfman wrote:
Now they are talking about 54 MPG cars? The only way to do that is to shorten the length of a mile.

You are a goddamn idiot,

Sin,
Honda Civics 20+ years ago.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Van »

smackaholic wrote:How the fukk is it legal for a company to sell a 400 lb two wheeler with 150 HP, but, some shmuck can't drive a car he built on the roads, because it hasn't been proven safe yet by the NTSB safety nazis?
You know, that's a pretty damn valid question, especially when any shmuck with a learner's permit can purchase and legally attempt to operate this on public roads...

Image

150 hp? Try 200+ hp that pushes a legitimate 200 hp to the rear wheel...bone stock. Try a 0-60 time of 2.4 seconds, a 9.47 1/4 mile, and a top speed well in excess of 200 mph once the limiter is removed, which it nearly always will be. Even with the limiter in place the thing will still do 300 kmph, or 186 mph.

This isn't some Lamborghini that may as well exist purely in the hypothetical sense for 99.9% of the people who lust after one. No, this is a $14,699 conveyance that will vaporize even the most exotic dream car, and you could probably have one in your garage two hours from now if you just felt up to pulling the trigger.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Mikey »

Yeah but only fags ride those things.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Van »

Actually, it's mainly fat hood rats who ride those.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by smackaholic »

Van wrote:
smackaholic wrote:How the fukk is it legal for a company to sell a 400 lb two wheeler with 150 HP, but, some shmuck can't drive a car he built on the roads, because it hasn't been proven safe yet by the NTSB safety nazis?
You know, that's a pretty damn valid question, especially when any shmuck with a learner's permit can purchase and legally attempt to operate this on public roads...

Image

150 hp? Try 200+ hp that pushes a legitimate 200 hp to the rear wheel...bone stock. Try a 0-60 time of 2.4 seconds, a 9.47 1/4 mile, and a top speed well in excess of 200 mph once the limiter is removed, which it nearly always will be. Even with the limiter in place the thing will still do 300 kmph, or 186 mph.

This isn't some Lamborghini that may as well exist purely in the hypothetical sense for 99.9% of the people who lust after one. No, this is a $14,699 conveyance that will vaporize even the most exotic dream car, and you could probably have one in your garage two hours from now if you just felt up to pulling the trigger.
well, the ZX-14 isn't 400 lbs. closer to 600. i was thinking 1 liter sport bikes.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Wolfman »

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/ ... ivic.shtml

Not quite 54 MPG, but I guess that's fine for a pregnant roller skate. I like driving a CAR. Reminds me of the last time I rented a car and the dealer was going to give me a PT Cruiser. I said I wanted a mid-sized sedan. I guess the Civic would be considered one these days.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Goober McTuber »

smackaholic wrote:The TDI is an awesome vehicle, if you do a lot of open road driving.
BTW, the TDI is not a vehicle. You fucking moron.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by R-Jack »

Wolfman wrote:http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/ ... ivic.shtml

Not quite 54 MPG, but I guess that's fine for a pregnant roller skate.
I was just going off of personal experience. I almost expected for the stats to say I was even further off. A girl I was fucking way back when had a Civic HF that got mid 50's on a regular basis. Hell, I had a CRX Si that was a blast to drive that still got me in the 40s. Suprising leg room in those.

Fact of the matter is, it really isn't that hard to meet that "pipe dream" of 54 miles a gallon. Just build them like they used to. Those queer little Smart cars got a lot of pub for getting into the mid-40s. You can't tell me those are safer than any Civic from the late 80s/early 90s.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Goober McTuber »

R-Jack wrote:
Wolfman wrote:http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/ ... ivic.shtml

Not quite 54 MPG, but I guess that's fine for a pregnant roller skate.
I was just going off of personal experience. I almost expected for the stats to say I was even further off. A girl I was fucking way back when had a Civic HF that got mid 50's on a regular basis. Hell, I had a CRX Si that was a blast to drive that still got me in the 40s. Suprising leg room in those.

Fact of the matter is, it really isn't that hard to meet that "pipe dream" of 54 miles a gallon. Just build them like they used to. Those queer little Smart cars got a lot of pub for getting into the mid-40s. You can't tell me those are safer than any Civic from the late 80s/early 90s.
From everything I’ve read about the Smart Cart, they don’t get exceptional gas mileage. High 30s on the highway. I would bet they are safer than the old Civics, though. I saw a show where they were crash testing them against larger vehicles and the Smart Car held up extremely well, due to its safety cell.

Image
Joe in PB wrote: Yeah I'm the dumbass
schmick, speaking about Larry Nassar's pubescent and prepubescent victims wrote: They couldn't even kick that doctors ass

Seems they rather just lay there, get fucked and play victim
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by smackaholic »

Goober McTuber wrote:
smackaholic wrote:The TDI is an awesome vehicle, if you do a lot of open road driving.
BTW, the TDI is not a vehicle. You fucking moron.
The official board dr science smarty pants, mikey, just referred to it as one, you senile old ankle gumming coot.

Anyone who knows anything about VW TDIs, knows that they are commonly referred to as TDIs rather than Passats, Golfs or Jettas.

I guess this is the part where I request you off yourself in a horrifying manner, but, you're too old for that. How 'bout the pneumonia fairy just pays you a visit?
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by smackaholic »

Goober McTuber wrote:
R-Jack wrote:
Wolfman wrote:http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/ ... ivic.shtml

Not quite 54 MPG, but I guess that's fine for a pregnant roller skate.
I was just going off of personal experience. I almost expected for the stats to say I was even further off. A girl I was fucking way back when had a Civic HF that got mid 50's on a regular basis. Hell, I had a CRX Si that was a blast to drive that still got me in the 40s. Suprising leg room in those.

Fact of the matter is, it really isn't that hard to meet that "pipe dream" of 54 miles a gallon. Just build them like they used to. Those queer little Smart cars got a lot of pub for getting into the mid-40s. You can't tell me those are safer than any Civic from the late 80s/early 90s.
From everything I’ve read about the Smart Cart, they don’t get exceptional gas mileage. High 30s on the highway. I would bet they are safer than the old Civics, though. I saw a show where they were crash testing them against larger vehicles and the Smart Car held up extremely well, due to its safety cell.

Image
A Smart would do better in a crash for the reasons you stated. These higher crash standards come at a weigh cost which is why a 1984 CRX HF will kick the crap out of anything built today at the fuel pump.

What they do not factor in is that a Smart with it's TVO like wheelbase is inherently dangerous at highway speeds. Wheelbase=directional stability.
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Felix »

Goober McTuber wrote:
smackaholic wrote:The TDI is an awesome vehicle, if you do a lot of open road driving.
BTW, the TDI is not a vehicle. You fucking moron.
nice catch.....

but I've got to be honest, your sentence structure here leaves a lot to be desired....I think if you'd have inserted an apostrophe after vehicle it would have given your post more punch and eliminated a three word sentence that's a grammatical nightmare.....

hope this helps....
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Re: A 100 Thousand Dollar "Brick"

Post by Goober McTuber »

smackaholic wrote:Anyone who knows anything about VW TDIs, knows that they are commonly referred to as TDIs rather than Passats, Golfs or Jettas.
I used to be in the business, and no one I know refers to them that way. But maybe you and Ken can compare notes on your Jettas and your nail polish.

BTW, from my experience Volkswagen routine maintenance was always 2-3 times more expensive than any of the Japanese brands.


Felix - a three word sentence (fragment) is a grammatical nightmare? When I have time, I'll diagram it for you. You tedious fuckpuddle.
Joe in PB wrote: Yeah I'm the dumbass
schmick, speaking about Larry Nassar's pubescent and prepubescent victims wrote: They couldn't even kick that doctors ass

Seems they rather just lay there, get fucked and play victim
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