How Do You Define "Great"?

[Smackie Chan]

The first radio station at which I worked was AM 850 KMDY in Thousand Oaks, CA. It was a small station with a weak signal that billed itself as “America’s only Comedy Radio!” We ran a recorded promo that said something to the effect of “We’re the #1 radio station! Why? Because we say we are!” Of course, being a comedy station, this was intended to be taken as tongue-in-cheek and elicit chuckles from our listening audience.

Muhammad Ali used to refer to himself as “The Greatest.” During his boxing prime, he was able to make a fairly legitimate case for that claim in the ring. But generally speaking, valid determinations of rankings or of greatness are made from the outside, and those made by the ones grading themselves must be taken with a grain of salt due to inherent bias, or at least objectively analyzed using whatever empirical evidence is available to verify those claims. Unfortunately, in many cases, there is little or nothing empirical to analyze, since what is being claimed is often subjective, and definitions may vary widely about what constitutes the claim being made.

Such is the case with the terms “great” and “greatest.” Even in areas in which statistics play a vital role such as baseball, there is no inarguable determination as to who was or is the greatest player of all time. Some would say Willie Mays due to being perhaps the most dominant five-tool player. Others might argue Babe Ruth because he was outstanding both at the plate and on the mound and showed power like no one before him (although the game was lily white at the time). Mike Trout is making a strong bid for the claim during the prime of his career. Can career pitchers be considered the greatest?

Determinations get far murkier in areas such as rock & roll, since there is no consensus as to what even constitutes the genre. Artists like Laura Nyro and Run DMC have been inducted into the Rock & Roll HoF, but Jethro Tull and The J. Geils Band haven’t. Popularity and opinions from a select few are the key determinants in this arena rather than pure statistics, and what some consider great, others consider shit.

Which leads us to America (the country, not the band). The POTUS and his loyal base want to “Make America Great Again.” This begs many questions and raises valid concerns about who is making the determination. The vast majority of us want to believe America either has been great or still is, but due to nationalistic bias, are any of us (Shlomo & Phibes notwithstanding) really in a position to make an objective determination? Shouldn’t such a determination be made by knowledgable non-Americans looking objectively at our nation and comparing it to others using some sort of widely accepted criteria?

It’s easy to make a case for past and/or current American greatness using criteria such as military might, economic strength, and global cultural influence. Using these as benchmarks, it’s difficult to understand how anyone can legitimately claim that America is not currently great. Throw in other criteria such as immigration vs. emigration, humanitarianism/compassion (which includes foreign financial aid and immigration policies), relative happiness of its citizens, incarceration rates, violence and homicide rates, perceived injustices based on race, gender, sexual orientation, economic status, etc., and the definition of greatness is not so clear-cut.

So despite the acknowledgment that our greatness or lack thereof is not best determined by those whom I am asking due to inherent bias, what say you? If you believe we are already great, on what do you base that opinion? If you’re of the belief that we were once great but no longer are, what was it about our past that is currently missing that makes us no longer great? What needs to be done to MAGA, and how will we know when we’ve returned to or surpassed our prior levels of greatness? If you don’t believe we’ve ever been great, on what do you base that?

In other words, as it relates to America, define great.

[Dinsdale]

Sister Golden Hair is a great tune.

Muskrat Love -- meh.

[Dinsdale]

America had a variety show?

That would have been great.

Sorry, Smackie -- just trying to add some levity, before sacrosanct liberty and b-b-b-b-but the liberals screwed it up comes calling.

[EAP]

The first radio station at which I worked was AM 850 KMDY in Thousand Oaks, CA. It was a small station with a weak signal that billed itself as “America’s only Comedy Radio!” We ran a recorded promo that said something to the effect of “We’re the #1 radio station! Why? Because we say we are!” Of course, being a comedy station, this was intended to be taken as tongue-in-cheek and elicit chuckles from our listening audience.

Muhammad Ali used to refer to himself as “The Greatest.” During his boxing prime, he was able to make a fairly legitimate case for that claim in the ring. But generally speaking, valid determinations of rankings or of greatness are made from the outside, and those made by the ones grading themselves must be taken with a grain of salt due to inherent bias, or at least objectively analyzed using whatever empirical evidence is available to verify those claims. Unfortunately, in many cases, there is little or nothing empirical to analyze, since what is being claimed is often subjective, and definitions may vary widely about what constitutes the claim being made.

Such is the case with the terms “great” and “greatest.” Even in areas in which statistics play a vital role such as baseball, there is no inarguable determination as to who was or is the greatest player of all time. Some would say Willie Mays due to being perhaps the most dominant five-tool player. Others might argue Babe Ruth because he was outstanding both at the plate and on the mound and showed power like no one before him (although the game was lily white at the time). Mike Trout is making a strong bid for the claim during the prime of his career. Can career pitchers be considered the greatest?

Determinations get far murkier in areas such as rock & roll, since there is no consensus as to what even constitutes the genre. Artists like Laura Nyro and Run DMC have been inducted into the Rock & Roll HoF, but Jethro Tull and The J. Geils Band haven’t. Popularity and opinions from a select few are the key determinants in this arena rather than pure statistics, and what some consider great, others consider shit.

Which leads us to America (the country, not the band). The POTUS and his loyal base want to “Make America Great Again.” This begs many questions and raises valid concerns about who is making the determination. The vast majority of us want to believe America either has been great or still is, but due to nationalistic bias, are any of us (Shlomo & Phibes notwithstanding) really in a position to make an objective determination? Shouldn’t such a determination be made by knowledgable non-Americans looking objectively at our nation and comparing it to others using some sort of widely accepted criteria?

It’s easy to make a case for past and/or current American greatness using criteria such as military might, economic strength, and global cultural influence. Using these as benchmarks, it’s difficult to understand how anyone can legitimately claim that America is not currently great. Throw in other criteria such as immigration vs. emigration, humanitarianism/compassion (which includes foreign financial aid and immigration policies), relative happiness of its citizens, incarceration rates, violence and homicide rates, perceived injustices based on race, gender, sexual orientation, economic status, etc., and the definition of greatness is not so clear-cut.

So despite the acknowledgment that our greatness or lack thereof is not best determined by those whom I am asking due to inherent bias, what say you? If you believe we are already great, on what do you base that opinion? If you’re of the belief that we were once great but no longer are, what was it about our past that is currently missing that makes us no longer great? What needs to be done to MAGA, and how will we know when we’ve returned to or surpassed our prior levels of greatness? If you don’t believe we’ve ever been great, on what do you base that?

In other words, as it relates to America, define great.

This thread was taylor-made for a man of my wisdom.

Greatness is partially derived from statistics, your "body of work", or in the case for America being great.....the mere fact that we have lifted more millions upon millions out of poverty

In sports?
Take Muhammad Ali.
He reclaimed the heavyweight title on 3 different occasions.
The one that REALLY stands out for me was his taking apart of big George foreman.
Ali did it with his brains.
At that time, George was not a genial Christian. He was a stone cold killer. Knocking people out faster than tyson would 13 years later. And putting them in the emergency room for good measure. ie...joe frazier.

Howard cosell warned Ali not to take the foreman fight, fearing that foreman would kill him and end his career. But what cosell couldn't possibly understand,
Was that Ali wasn't gonna go toe to toe with big george.
He was gonna cover up and stay on the ropes, while big george just punched himself out.

The strategy worked, george wasn't smart back then, he didn't need to be, on account of how big and strong he was. But, he ran into the greatest, an iconic boxer who used his brains.

Tyson was a smaller version of big George, just knocking people out, until he ran into someone who could knock him the fuck out.

Music???
https://youtu.be/KZ64T6gEdC4[/youtube]

Anyone who doesn't understand the soul sex diversity and greatness of that?
Kill yourself.

[Mikey]

If I see Christina Aguilera I will fight her.

[Dinsdale]

If I see Christina Aguilera I will fight her.

In case you were wondering if anyone got that...


BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

Mega-nostalgia-RACKS!

[Mikey]

Yeah I was definitely wondering but had to put it out there.
Good to see there are still some old timers with a few remaining functional brain cells.

[Dinsdale]

Deeeeep pull.

[Mikey]

On a similar level as [invis/mem] + password

Or however that went...

[Carson]

This thread was taylor-made for a man of my wisdom.

sig material

[Dinsdale]

This thread was taylor-made for a man of my wisdom.

sig material

"Infallible" grammar.

[Softball Bat]

America was "great" when the U.S. hockey team won the gold medal in 1980.

It was also great when GW Bush threw out the first pitch after 9/11.


At least it felt that way in the moment.

[BSmack]

America has and always will be a country with flaws that is capable of creating great moments. Even now we are capable of great moments. I don't believe that any country can truly be described as great. Countries are just organizational systems meant to control land and people.

[smackaholic]

Really, really, really good.

[smackaholic]

Frosted flakes?

[Dinsdale]

You know Captain and Tennille's Muskrat Love was a cover, right?

[EAP]

America was "great" when the U.S. hockey team won the gold medal in 1980.

It was also great when GW Bush threw out the first pitch after 9/11.


At least it felt that way in the moment.

It was great when elvis walked into sun studios in the summer of 53'
To cut a record for his mama.

It was great when Chuck Heston uttered these prolific words,

"Take your stinkin' paws off me,
You damn dirty ape". end quote.
Instantly sending shockwaves across the globe.

It was great when truman dropped the bombs, sacrificing 75,000 lives, ultimately saving countless millions more lives.

It was great when 51 year old mob wise guy frankie sinatra was boning 17 year old virgin mia farrow.
Years later karma would come back to bite that hypocritical bitch when woody laid the wood to her step daughter.

I can list many more specific examples of greatness, but I don't want to be accused of boring the elders here.

[Screw_Michigan]

America has and always will be a country with flaws that is capable of creating great moments. Even now we are capable of great moments. I don't believe that any country can truly be described as great. Countries are just organizational systems meant to control land and people.

Great is a loaded term like safe. "He's keeping us safe." You can never accurately define what those terms mean, which is why assfuck fascists like Trump love to use them.

[Dr_Phibes]

Always just think of Britain without the Republic to the west. Brilliant word, the first world war to be named - 'Great War' seems appropriate as a scale of carnage.

[Wolfman]

The Great Plains are pretty great. The Great Barrier Reef too. The Great Lakes sure have a lot of the world's fresh water. The Great Wall of China ? Peter the Great was supposedly 6'8" but I wonder how he would have done against Andre the Giant.
Are those quid pro quos ?

[EAP]

America has and always will be a country with flaws that is capable of creating great moments. Even now we are capable of great moments. I don't believe that any country can truly be described as great. Countries are just organizational systems meant to control land and people.

Great is a loaded term like safe. "He's keeping us safe." You can never accurately define what those terms mean, which is why assfuck fascists like Trump love to use them.

You keep calling trump a fascist.
Proving once again, that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[MgoBlue-LightSpecial]

Deeeeep pull.

Was America the dude who was 5'2" and gleeked on people?

[Dr_Phibes]

I spoke with a dude from Cuba two days ago, and I told him I had not yet traveled to Cuba but was looking forward to doing so because I heard the food was good.

The food is awful. Notorious.

Not because of quality, that's top notch. Existing under a blockade for over half a century, access to anything beyond fundamental is impossible - spice, more than anything. Prolonged periods with only the basics at hand, a generation has grown up without having to cook anything but essentials.

[Dr_Phibes]

Thanks to American 'Greatness', think of Cuba as a giant Subway. No matter which sub you order, it all mysteriously tastes the same. One-meat One-veg. The green peppers could be mushrooms, the pepperoni could be ham.

[EAP]

The Great Plains are pretty great. The Great Barrier Reef too. The Great Lakes sure have a lot of the world's fresh water. The Great Wall of China ? Peter the Great was supposedly 6'8" but I wonder how he would have done against Andre the Giant.
Are those quid pro quos ?

Peter the great at 6'8, say 300-325 pounds?
Andre the giant was 7'4 say 560 pounds?
He'd body slam petey.

[Screw_Michigan]

If this is such a shitty place, why are so many people risking their lives to get here?

It is YOUR political party who wants to prevent them from coming here.

[Smackie Chan]

Is America great? I think so. Was it greater in the past? Yes, in my lifetime it felt like it was greater in the 1980's than it is now (or perhaps because I was younger and cared more, it felt that way).

If anyone was going to provide a cogent response, I figured it'd be you. But it still doesn't really answer the questions.

Screwy is correct by acknowledging that greatness in the context of this topic is so nebulous and subjective that it can't accurately be defined, and you reinforced that in your quote above by saying "it felt that way" without being able to answer why it felt that way or provide examples of what was different then compared to now. There are many points of comparison that can be made, some measurable, others not. Examples of measurable points are income/wealth disparity, middle class buying power (as opposed to simply looking at unemployment rates, which cannot provide an accurate accounting of how well the working class is really doing economically), crime rates, GDP, home ownership, homelessness, immigration rates, welfare stats, etc. Softer points of comparison, which are highly subjective, are policy direction (leaning more liberal/conservative or left/right), happiness indices, political divisiveness, and government trustworthiness. These are but a very few of the angles at which relative greatness between the past and present can be viewed.

If I were an outsider looking in, it would be hard for me to not see America's greatness tarnished by its violent nature. We simply kill each other with far too much frequency as compared to other so-called civilized countries. The horse is out of the barn as far as gun ownership and the laws governing it are concerned, so there's nothing I can see as a viable option to change that landscape. But this is not the focus of what most of us consider when analyzing "greatness."

Politically, there have always been fundamental differences between Democrats and Republicans, but the hatred (for lack of a better term, if there is one) between the two sides has grown so deep and ingrained that both the general population and the lawmakers have become blinded by it at the expense of being able to move forward. Sadly, as Dr. Hill stated during the opening comments of her impeachment testimony, this plays right into the hands of those who wish to see us weakened. And unfortunately, it seems the only way of uniting Americans, if only temporarily, is to be attacked by outsiders, such as what happened on 9/11.

My questions are primarily directed at the MAGA crowd. What does an America restored to its perceived previous greatness look like? Is it simply whiter, with fewer brown people and women in positions of authority both in government and the workplace? Is it a country that adopts only conservative values and eschews anything that smacks of liberalism/socialism? Tighter border security, immigration policies, and trade agreements? Nothing but white conservative males in the SCOTUS? Unchallenged military power? In brief, your stated overall goal is to MAGA, but what are the specifics of what it will take to get us there, what needs to changed or reversed, what will be the proof that we have gotten there, and how will it look?

[BSmack]

There's nothing quite like the study of history to remind you that greatness is a subjective term.

[Smackie Chan]

There's nothing quite like the study of history to remind you that greatness is a subjective term.

Of course it is, and that's not debatable. I'm just trying to satisfy my curiosity regarding what it means to those who adhere to the MAGA mantra. From where I stand and to use Air Force aviation jargon, they appear to be all Mach and no compass heading.

[Left Seater]

Good question Mr Chan, and one that isn't easy to answer as it is going to be different for everyone and those answers aren't going to resonate with others. I guess you would probably put me in the MAGA category but I don't really give a rat's ass about Trump's slogans or "rallying cries."

First I think there will always be a bit of fondness for the way "we" used to do it. Each generation seems to have issues with the generations that follow them and we feel they are lazy or wasting time, but most of that is because it is just different than what we would do or enjoy. For example, E-Sports. I love sports, but I don't want to watch another person play a video game. If anything I would want to play the video game, but I have no desire to sit around, much less pay, to watch someone play a video game. Others do and that is great, until it starts pushing college football off of the air.

But for things that we might put in the changing to MAGA? Let's start with the Cake Shop case in Colorado that went to the Supreme Court. How that became such an issue is beyond me. First I think it is crazy that a business owner would turn down any business that wasn't illegal. Shut your mouth and bake the cake and let them spread the word on your amazing cakes. On the flip side I don't understand the customer who thinks their rights are more important than the shop owner's rights. Refusing service vs religious beliefs. Further why would they want to deal with a shop and owner who clearly didn't want to make their cake? Wouldn't they be worried that the cake might not be up to par and put a damper on their special day? Both sides of this bother me, but I think people should respect each other and I think both are in the wrong.

You also brought up illegal immigration. Yes we were/are a nation of immigrants. However, we didn't allow mass migrations and open borders. My family came into the US via Galveston and Ellis Island. The German portion the settled in Central Texas had to deal with all kinds of shit. The older generation would not allow German to be spoken outside of their home and my Grandmother was punished for speaking German by her mother. This didn't cause our family to lose its German roots. Further those immigrants wouldn't think of accepting welfare, and worked their ass off. Compare that to today where we have people that want to fight against secure borders. This is beyond my comprehension and no argument they have made makes any sense. Further, if I were a poor US citizen and I saw this movement for sanctuary cities and allowing non-citizens to vote and have IDs and to collect welfare and health services while I wasn't getting the same, would be very upsetting. We need to take care of our own first.

That is a start and we can add to this, but again, good question.

[Screw_Michigan]

You also brought up illegal immigration. Yes we were/are a nation of immigrants. However, we didn't allow mass migrations and open borders. My family came into the US via Galveston and Ellis Island. The German portion the settled in Central Texas had to deal with all kinds of shit. The older generation would not allow German to be spoken outside of their home and my Grandmother was punished for speaking German by her mother. This didn't cause our family to lose its German roots. Further those immigrants wouldn't think of accepting welfare, and worked their ass off. Compare that to today where we have people that want to fight against secure borders. This is beyond my comprehension and no argument they have made makes any sense. Further, if I were a poor US citizen and I saw this movement for sanctuary cities and allowing non-citizens to vote and have IDs and to collect welfare and health services while I wasn't getting the same, would be very upsetting. We need to take care of our own first.

Why do you give a shit what language other families speak? I've never understood people who actually care about this.

Is it because you're too stupid to learn another language? I mean you're pretty damn dumb and all, but I don't think you're that stupid. Like Pikkkle stupid.

[Left Seater]

That was your takeaway? And you want to call me dumb?

[Screw_Michigan]

That was your takeaway? And you want to call me dumb?

Yes, that is my takeaway. Why do you care?

[Left Seater]

You are the one throwing up strawmen to attack and then want to wonder why I care?

Quit trying so hard at playing a role on the internet.

[EAP]

There's nothing quite like the study of history to remind you that greatness is a subjective term.

Of course it is, and that's not debatable. I'm just trying to satisfy my curiosity regarding what it means to those who adhere to the MAGA mantra. From where I stand and to use Air Force aviation jargon, they appear to be all Mach and no compass heading.

The stupid crowd who votes blue and accuses MAGA of being racist because of the sins of the past, thinking that we want those same sins today, ARE LOW IQ SHEEP

They are sheep because they're taught to believe that shit by the media

MAGA means all the good minus the bad.
That's not rocket science.

MAGA means,
E plu ri bus u num.
From out of many to one.

MAGA means liberty for all.

Come here to be free from government control socialism.

But when you come here?
Burn your flag and wrap yourselves proudly in ours.
Because once you're here, we become one.

Are we utopia? No, far from it.
The grass is not greener elsewhere though

[FiatLux]

You are the one throwing up strawmen to attack and then want to wonder why I care?

Quit trying so hard at playing a role on the internet.

Chick fight.

[EAP]

If this is such a shitty place, why are so many people risking their lives to get here?

It is YOUR political party who wants to prevent them from coming here.

Where'd you hear that? On Rachel maddow?
We just want them to come legally. What's so hard to understand about that concept?

[Screw_Michigan]

You are the one throwing up strawmen to attack and then want to wonder why I care?

Quit trying so hard at playing a role on the internet.

I'm not playing a role on the internet. Why won't you explain yourself?

[Screw_Michigan]

We just want them to come legally. What's so hard to understand about that concept?

It's a fact that the federal government is scaling back immigration, both legal and illegal. Shit they're kicking immigrants out of the military. Trump is smearing immigrants who actually serve in the military and it's no longer a good way for immigrants to gain citizenship.

Fuck Trump and fuck you.

[Softball Bat]

My questions are primarily directed at the MAGA crowd. What does an America restored to its perceived previous greatness look like?

They would like to recapture the 1950s.

American dominance after its victory in WWII.

Prosperity.

White rule, with women and minorities knowing their place.

Respect for military, police, authority, flag, and country.