Notre Dame= Overrated???

The Seer · Post by **The Seer** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:10 pm

Believe the Heupel wrote:
Spinach Genie wrote:Playing 1-aa teams doesn't count against you unless you're Auburn. :wink:
FTFY.

Van · Post by **Van** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:37 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Ken wrote:I think he simply painted w/too broad of a brush with that statement.
It's Van's MO these days, apparently. Make vague statements, with hidden implications, and it makes it much easier to spin out from under them when he gets called out for them.

You mean like the one where Tennessee is a bigger and more compelling tv draw than USC would be for Biff, The Fresno State Recruit?

Or maybe you mean the one that says a mid level program that's never won a huge game in their existence doesn't benefit from having a great showing on national tv against the #1 ranked team in the nation?

Oh, wait, those were your statements; the very ones from which we find you still slithering beneath your rock.

I meant exactly what I said and I stated it quite clearly. This CCG for Texas is nearly unique in that there's literally nothing that can be gained for them in playing such a useless "post season" game. This "no win" situation differs from a similar regular season blow out match up precisely because of its "post season" timing...

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:07 am

Van wrote: You mean like the one where Tennessee is a bigger and more compelling tv draw than USC would be for Biff, The Fresno State Recruit?

Your lack of perspective is showing.

First, USC fan, and LA Basin sportsfan in general, is the biggest fairweather fan on the planet, bar none. Until about 3 years ago, they couldn't pay people to watch SC games.

Second, it's quite clear that you have had about zero social life in your miserable existence. See, I'm a CFB fan on the Left Coast, too. But see, like most prep football stars, I like to get out and socialize, or at least my dick does. PAC10 teams often play late games. When the weather is deece (I hear it can be that way frequently in SoCal), by noon or so, I'm outty. I miss a Duck game here and there, but so be it. Your reasoning here is that everyone else is like you, and sitting around waiting for the SC gamer to start. This is where your logic is quite flawed. Most well-adjusted and virtually all single guys put a premium on getting out and finding some action, be it cruising for chicks, hitting the bottle, or finding a pickup game at the park. Now see, Tennessee is on the other side of the country, and eastern teams don't play nearly the late games that we do out west. I get up saturday morning, and I can usually take in a good SEC or ACC battle, which quite often involves Tennesse. Over the last few seasons, I'd say I've seen more Tennesse games than USC games. That's reality for single guys with social lives. And despite what your trying to read into my statements, my entire point was that the Tenn/Fresno game was quite accessible to viewers on the West Coast, which was a huge game for FSU, recruiting-wise. Those same recruits you speak of got up saturday morning, browsed their viewing options, and said "hey, Fresno is playing Tennessee on TV." If I was one of those recruits, that's what I would have been watching, anyway. But here comes Van, deciding for the nation that those other big games Fresno has played were moot, and the SC game was where it all began...ludicrous.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:17 am

Sorry dude, but I was so busy applauding you for this one...

like most prep football stars, I like to get out and socialize, or at least my dick does.

...that I never even bothered with the rest.

Classic. Great line.

Dinsdale · Post by **Dinsdale** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:30 am

I'm kinda epic like that.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:37 am

Yep, you're positively Bace/Prime X like...

PrimeX · Post by **PrimeX** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:06 am

Did you just smack me?

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:47 am

Not intentionally!

SoCalTrjn · Post by **SoCalTrjn** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:25 am

buckeye_in_sc wrote:Terry I'll play

on what basis do you just arbitrarily pick ND and Oregon...?

Oregon lost to SC
ND lost to SC and MSU FUCKING MSU
tOSU lost to Texas and PSU (two top 5 teams)

Auburn has a claim, ND has a claim, Oregon has a claim, and tOSU has a claim...to me two teams will get screwed while I do not believe ND deserves it...call me a homer, but hey they are ranked behind tOSU and Oregon in the BCS with tOSU being the highest ranked (as of now)...

just asking where your coming from...this is surely a lively debeate and will be debated for years to come...the BCS fucking sucks already...what kills me is many talking heads think Oregon/ND is a national matchup...explain that one to mean when you could possibly had the two largest alumni bases (tOSU and ND) going at in the Fiesta...granted there is some homerism but all I want is the most deserving teams in the game...hell if they chose Auburn vs Oregon I could live with that since both have 1 loss...but to take 1 two loss team and potentially leave another out...HORSESHIT...

just sayin....

Auburn has 2 losses dont they?

ND only has 3 wins vs teams with winning records, 2 of those 3 are Navy and BYU

Shoalzie · Post by **Shoalzie** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:28 am

SoCalTrjn wrote:ND only has 3 wins vs teams with winning records, 2 of those 3 are Navy and BYU

Notre Dame's strength of schedule sure took a kick in the junk when you look at how Michigan and Tennessee did. Who would think those two teams would have a combined record of 12-10? Both teams were in the preseason top 10 but were major flops. How much can you trust a preseason poll though? Throw in another fraud, Purdue...a team some thought could win the Big Ten because they didn't have to play Ohio State and Michigan. Syracuse is a big name but the program has fallen like a rock ever since McNabb left there. Michigan State finished 5-6 after a 4-0 start. Regardless of how bad these teams were this year, how many schools could or would schedule USC, Michigan, Tennessee, Purdue, Michigan State and Syracuse in a given year? Their schedule is a product them being an independent but at least they are playing major programs and not D-IA or low level D-I opponents. They have no control over how bad an opponent does in a season. You're supposed to beat whoever is on the schedule and they finished 9-2...better than most would've expected.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:05 am

Shoalzie wrote:
SoCalTrjn wrote:ND only has 3 wins vs teams with winning records, 2 of those 3 are Navy and BYU

Notre Dame's strength of schedule sure took a kick in the junk when you look at how Michigan and Tennessee did. Who would think those two teams would have a combined record of 12-10? Both teams were in the preseason top 10 but were major flops. How much can you trust a preseason poll though? Throw in another fraud, Purdue...a team some thought could win the Big Ten because they didn't have to play Ohio State and Michigan. Syracuse is a big name but the program has fallen like a rock ever since McNabb left there. Michigan State finished 5-6 after a 4-0 start. Regardless of how bad these teams were this year, how many schools could or would schedule USC, Michigan, Tennessee, Purdue, Michigan State and Syracuse in a given year? Their schedule is a product them being an independent but at least they are playing major programs and not D-IA or low level D-I opponents. They have no control over how bad an opponent does in a season. You're supposed to beat whoever is on the schedule and they finished 9-2...better than most would've expected.

Yep. There was no way for ND to know when they scheduled those games five years ago that Michigan, Purdue, Michigan State, Tennessee and Syracuse would all have down years, just like there was no way for them to know how USC or Stanford would be at this point. Either one of those teams could've been in the toilet or ranked in the top 10, especially USC.

ND's only scheduled "gimmes" are their games with the military academies. Even their nearly annual "Holy Bowl" game with Boston College is no guaranteed gimme...

Notre Dame's S.O.S. has taken a beating this year but nobody can question the attempt they made at scheduling like bastards...

M2 · Post by M2 » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 am

Van wrote:m2, both Oregon and ASU lost their much better (returning) starting QBs for the season and they soldiered on...

As for Cal-USC, well, in case you hadn't noticed USC gets a lot of picks no matter who's playing QB against 'em. USC scores a lot, teams are then forced to throw a lot and then USC starts piling up the picks. Pretty confident here that a first year starter like Longshore wouldn't have looked markedly better than any other QB you could've trotted out there.

Regardless, no first year starter is ever going to be the difference between being #1 (your fantastical hypothesis) and being a four or five loss team.

Suddenly take away a three year starting QB like Leinart in the middle of a season and yeah, that's going to hurt your offense big time. Leinart's been taking ALL the first team snaps for three years. His back up(s) haven't gotten a sniff of experience with the first team and they haven't played a minute in any pressure situations in the games.

Longshore? Dude hadn't proven a damn thing yet and Cal's offense wasn't 100% ingrained and predicated on his manning of the controls...

Meanwhile Oregon beat you with their own back up QB, a guy who DID replace an established starter.

Van= Annie...

he did not answer a single question...

the truth

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:11 am

m2 wrote:Van= Annie...

he did not answer a single question...

the truth

This from the boardkunt whose shitty bear squad got RUN by several different teams...and RAN off this board before he could get himself properly-plungered.

They will send your ass to New York all by yourself...no need having Babs or JON sit next to you as the T1BBBotY is yours.

Typical Kalfan.

M2 · Post by M2 » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:26 am

Jimmy Medalions wrote:
m2 wrote:Van= Annie...

he did not answer a single question...

the truth
This from the boardkunt whose shitty bear squad got RUN by several different teams...and RAN off this board before he could get himself properly-plungered.

They will send your ass to New York all by yourself...no need having Babs or JON sit next to you as the T1BBBotY is yours.

Typical Kalfan.

Higher learning will never have USC in the vernacular!!!

m2 is the truth

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:49 am

m2, exactly what "question" did I fail to answer??

You brought up the injury to your first year QB and the interceptions against us and I answered it.

That bit of yours about your offensive line wasn't a question and it didn't even merit a response anyway.

I'm guessing you simply managed to miss my response post to you.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:12 am

Shoalzie wrote:Notre Dame's strength of schedule sure took a kick in the junk when you look at how Michigan and Tennessee did. Who would think those two teams would have a combined record of 12-10? Both teams were in the preseason top 10 but were major flops. How much can you trust a preseason poll though? Throw in another fraud, Purdue...a team some thought could win the Big Ten because they didn't have to play Ohio State and Michigan. Syracuse is a big name but the program has fallen like a rock ever since McNabb left there. Michigan State finished 5-6 after a 4-0 start. Regardless of how bad these teams were this year, how many schools could or would schedule USC, Michigan, Tennessee, Purdue, Michigan State and Syracuse in a given year? Their schedule is a product them being an independent but at least they are playing major programs and not D-IA or low level D-I opponents. They have no control over how bad an opponent does in a season. You're supposed to beat whoever is on the schedule and they finished 9-2...better than most would've expected.

Rack.

Van wrote:ND's only scheduled "gimmes" are their games with the military academies.

Military academies? We haven't played Air Force since '02, Army since '98 (Army is on the schedule next year, but for now that looks like just a one-shot deal).

Since most on here don't know why we play Navy every year, I'll explain. Basically, it comes down to the fact that during WWII, Navy established a sizable NROTC Unit at Notre Dame. As a result, ND was able to keep its doors open during WWII, while many other all-male colleges (ND didn't go co-ed until 1972) in existence at the time were forced to shut down.

And fwiw, Navy's football program is no longer the joke it once was. Paul Johnson has made huge strides in improving the football program. Navy is going to a bowl game this season for the third consecutive season -- that's the first time in history that they ever accomplished that. In fairness, scheduling mostly patsies hasn't hurt Navy, and given ND's 42-year winning streak in this series, it's evident that ND finds a way to win this one even when ND is in a down year, Navy is doing surprisingly well, or both.

Even their nearly annual "Holy Bowl" game with Boston College is no guaranteed gimme...

You're not serious, are you? Fredo's won this one the last three seasons (didn't play this year). In hindsight, their win against us in '02 kept us out of the BCS that year.

Make no mistake about it: this game is their Super Bowl. In fact, for them, I would posit that BC-ND is bigger than ND-USC is for either ND or USC. If Fredo were to go 1-10, that would be considered a successful season if the 1 comes against ND.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:44 pm

SoCalTrjn wrote:
buckeye_in_sc wrote:Terry I'll play

on what basis do you just arbitrarily pick ND and Oregon...?

Oregon lost to SC
ND lost to SC and MSU FUCKING MSU
tOSU lost to Texas and PSU (two top 5 teams)

Auburn has a claim, ND has a claim, Oregon has a claim, and tOSU has a claim...to me two teams will get screwed while I do not believe ND deserves it...call me a homer, but hey they are ranked behind tOSU and Oregon in the BCS with tOSU being the highest ranked (as of now)...

just asking where your coming from...this is surely a lively debeate and will be debated for years to come...the BCS fucking sucks already...what kills me is many talking heads think Oregon/ND is a national matchup...explain that one to mean when you could possibly had the two largest alumni bases (tOSU and ND) going at in the Fiesta...granted there is some homerism but all I want is the most deserving teams in the game...hell if they chose Auburn vs Oregon I could live with that since both have 1 loss...but to take 1 two loss team and potentially leave another out...HORSESHIT...

just sayin....
Auburn has 2 losses dont they?

ND only has 3 wins vs teams with winning records, 2 of those 3 are Navy and BYU

I hate Miami as much, if not more than, the next guy, but if you're going to include Auburn in the mix, then you have to include Miami as well, based on current BCS standings if nothing else.

buckeye_in_sc · Post by **buckeye_in_sc** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:10 pm

again...not trying to flame rather having an objective conversation...

there was no way to know anything with anyone's OOC hell even tOSU's...granted they lost to Texas, but hell they could have had a down year as well...

I agree ND schedules top notch compo every year or so it seems until it is played out...my problem is the logic that just because it is ND they get the birth...

let the facts bear it out...for all 4 or 5 teams (good call Terry on Miami) and see where the cards fall...the problem I have is all the Headlines saying how ND got themselves a big payday...let's not pull the cart before the horse here...

MuchoBulls · Post by **MuchoBulls** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 pm

m2 wrote: Cal 27 v. Furd 3...

ND 38 v Furd 31...

Since you seem to like throwing out scores of common opponents, how come I haven't seen the scores between Cal-USC and ND-USC? I believe ND and Cal both played them at home.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:44 pm

Is Notre Dame overrated? I guess it depends on what you look at. And for you, m2, we kicked the shit out of Washington and Stanford. Don't believe me? Just look at the stats. We clearly kicked their ass. I know you don't look at the final score. Idiot. And while ND did struggle with two bottom dwellers of the Pac-10, on the road, they did manage to do pretty well against the Pac-10's best team. How'd you guys fair against USC? This year (because I know I'll see pictures of scoreboards from 2003 and links to box scores from 2004 if I don't qualify that statement)?

As far as ND being overrated based on their ranking, I have no fucking clue. I lost a lot of faith in the BCS rankings at the end of 2003 and put no stock in them this year when they constantly had Michigan ranked ahead of ND in the computer polls. Even the week after Michigan's 3rd loss and ND still only had 1 at the time. When I look at the coaches or AP poll, they typically rank you based on if they think you would beat the other teams that are within a game of you and ranked near you. So #7 isn't out of the question.

But when I think about where this team was a year ago, with exactly the same players on offense, minus a healthy Rhema McKnight and a smart Rashon Powers-Neal (busted for DUI while at home in MN during a bye week, suspended for the rest of the year), hell no they aren't overrated. They are right where they should be. I think Weis has worked a minor miracle getting this team to believe in his mindset of winning and doing it with very little depth at a few key positions.

So is ND overrated? It's really a matter of your perspective. I don't think so. This was the first team that they should have beaten soundly (favored by 18 points) and struggled with. They had one bad loss to MSU. I'm not going to get into a BCS debate, because I think I am in the vast minority and I don't feel like responding to 15 different posts defending my position. I'll wait until the next BCS rankings come out to say if ND deserves a BCS bid or not.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:42 pm

Why do people even respond to m2? He doesn't even exist in my book.

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:00 pm

Ken wrote:Why do people even respond to m2? He doesn't even exist in my book.

The same reason people scratch a mosquito bite, even though they know they shouldn't.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:30 pm

TiC, I said ND's game with BC is NOT a gimme and yeah, I'm serious. We're all aware that BC has beaten ND recently. Since we agree there where's your issue?

Did you want me to equate BC with Michigan or USC, as if they're on that level? No, they're not, and they never have been. They're a pretty good team, a decent opponent, and that's it. Most years ND is favored over them when they play but that doesn't make BC a gimme, is all...

As for the military academiies comment I'm referring to Notre Dame's scheduling history during our life time. They've always played Navy and I remember many games against Air Force too.

The Coast Guard needs to get a football team...

:-)

Jimmy Medalions · Post by **Jimmy Medalions** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:34 pm

Van wrote:The Coast Guard needs to get a football team...

:-)

Rack that. We've got a few slots for 'em.

Sin,
SEC

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:03 pm

Van wrote:TiC, I said ND's game with BC is NOT a gimme and yeah, I'm serious. We're all aware that BC has beaten ND recently. Since we agree there where's your issue?

Did you want me to equate BC with Michigan or USC, as if they're on that level? No, they're not, and they never have been. They're a pretty good team, a decent opponent, and that's it. Most years ND is favored over them when they play but that doesn't make BC a gimme, is all...

The sarcastic remark I threw at that one is based on the fact that no one in their right mind would, or at least should, call BC a gimme game. While some on this board probably think that BC's football history begins and ends with ND, that's not the case at all, and their program has improved remarkably in the past decade or so. You're right, they're not on the level of Michigan or USC, at least not on a consistent basis, although in a given year, they might have a better team than either, or perhaps even both, of those programs. Throw in the level of importance BC attaches to this particular game (not that anyone on our schedule, let alone Michigan and USC, considers ND an unimportant game) and you've got all the ingredients for ND to get tripped up if they bring anything less than their A game.

In fact, going back a little further, in '93 there can't be any doubt that BC cost us the national championship that season. If we beat BC that year, we're national champs. Period, no debate on the subject.

As for the military academiies comment I'm referring to Notre Dame's scheduling history during our life time. They've always played Navy and I remember many games against Air Force too.

Glad you clarified that. But we don't play Air Force anymore, at least not on anything approaching a regular basis.

And I never considered those games gimmes either. Full disclosure: my class at ND saw four straight losses to Air Force. We had never lost to Air Force before I came to ND, and if memory serves (I could be wrong on this point) we've lost to Air Force only once since I graduated.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:10 pm

Navy is definitely a gimme, all the time, no matter what, every year.

Forty six straight years (or whatever it is now) leaves no grey area.

Thing is, that's ND's only true gimme so they can be forgiven that one considering their efforts each year with the rest of their schedule. Hell, at least Navy brings a little bit of pomp and circumstance to the table and (a long time ago) a bit of real history of excellence.

They're at least no Appalachian St or some four angled directional school from Louisiana...

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:19 pm

Van wrote:Navy is definitely a gimme, all the time, no matter what, every year.

Forty six straight years (or whatever it is now) leaves no grey area.

Forty-two straight, but there have been some cliffhangers.

In 1984, we needed 11 points in the last four minutes to win 18-17.

In 2003, we got a field goal on the game's final play and won by 3.

Even in 2002, a year where we started 8-0 and Navy was sub-.500 (don't remember their exact record that year), we entered the 4th quarter down 23-15.

Not saying we haven't dominated that series, but there have been a few close calls along the way.

Thing is, that's ND's only true gimme so they can be forgiven that one considering their efforts each year with the rest of their schedule. Hell, at least Navy brings a little bit of pomp and circumstance to the table and (a long time ago) a bit of real history of excellence.

Not disputing any of this, but like I said, we don't schedule Navy to give ourselves a gimme. Rather, it's because of the fact that we were able to keep our doors open during WWII in large part because of the Navy.

The argument could be made that we've long since repaid that debt, but ND will never cancel the series with Navy, short of Navy dropping football at the 1-A level. If the series ends at some point in the future, it'll be Navy's choice.

Degenerate · Post by **Degenerate** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:41 pm

I remember a game in the mid-'90s, in the Meadowlands, I think, where some ND defender made a wicked tackle at the goal line to prevent a go-ahead score very late in the game.

Or was that against Army?

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:54 pm

That was the Army game in '95.

Spinach Genie · Post by **Spinach Genie** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:04 pm

Van wrote:They're at least no Appalachian St or some four angled directional school from Louisiana...

Such bitterness...

Killian · Post by **Killian** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:15 pm

Terry in Crapchester wrote:That was the Army game in '95.

Ivory Covington, highway 14.

Terry in Crapchester · Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:20 pm

Killian wrote:
Terry in Crapchester wrote:That was the Army game in '95.
Ivory Covington, highway 14.

Wow, if you're that cruel to Covington, it's a good thing you were but a pup when Pat Ballage was playing.

I used to refer to him as "The Cushion." Invariably, his man would have caught a five yard pass, and there was Pat, still backpedaling 30 yards downfield. Bad memories, man.

Van · Post by **Van** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:47 pm

Spinach Genie wrote:
Van wrote:They're at least no Appalachian St or some four angled directional school from Louisiana...
Such bitterness...

Caught that one, didja?